Gear weight vs safety and preparedness

Put something in the subject box. Re: Sheesh

Never know what you'll find.

[…]

Love people who start threads to tell us what they think and not accepting others opinions.

next time don't bother.

These thread deletions are becoming epidemic.

As Harry Truman once said: "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

We used to call it "Picking up one's marbles and going home."

Why would somebody ask for "Thoughts?" and then get in such a huff when thoughts – all of them well reasoned and politely expressed – are offered?

Go figure.

This is a pretty tough crowd sometimes, but this was not one of those times…

Super lame of you Heath.

I can't help feeling like I missed something?

"I can't help feeling like missed something?"

not really. Heath thought people made lightweight lists that traded weight for safety, people explained to him that this was not always the case and lightweight and safe can coexist.. he didn't want to hear it and is pouting now.

To summarize:

Entering the forum under-equipped with an ultralight skin is reckless.
A thicker skin provides a safety margin if conditions turn out harsher than expected.

Ralph gets a Brownie Point.

Cheers

Heath, if you had only said that many of the gear lists you’ve seen are inadequate, then you would have had a good conversation going. But you didn’t just do that, you made the generalized claim that sub-10 pound based weights can’t be done safely, because you cut down to the minimum and didn’t get nearly that light. People gave you counter-examples, and they explained how your gear could be reduced to UL weights without sacrificing safety (for example, getting rid of the Nalgene and switching to an alcohol stove). I think you took this as people telling you that you’re doing things wrong. That’s not what they were saying. They were simply saying that you can do these things to get below ten pounds without sacrificing your shelter, insulation, or emergency supplies. Nobody told you that you should. That’s up to you, and there are perfectly good reasons to keep those extra items, but they’re not related to safety.

Anyhow, as promised, here’s my gear list. Base weight is 9 lbs 11.7 oz. I generally don’t go out when the lows are much below freezing, but I have used this setup once when it got to 9º (my feet were cold, but otherwise I was OK).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z8D1JS1uxYkfbCcuLWU316vvsXd-z6NXXE4HjTv95ls/edit?usp=sharing

What am I missing?

"There is a small group of people that comment in almost every single thread, who consistently tell everyone they know everything and everyone else is wrong or doing it wrong by browbeating them."

Whoa now. I've been on the receiving end of some abrupt comments when I disagreed with the core group now. And you know what? It doesn't bother me. Another way to view it is that there's a core group of people who backpack a whole heck of a lot more than I do, and who are willing to spend their off-trail hours sharing what's worked for them despite no pay and few thanks.

So here's to the pedantic @ssholes who have helped me find better ways to do things, even if they are a bit prickly at times.

I will first say that I have only now skimmed over this thread and that I didn't get a chance to read any of your posts Heath, other than the one I am about to respond to. Next, before I get into some of the problematic issues of the little that I have read of your contributions to UL backpacking discourse, I don't want an important issue aside from your actual text get swept under the run–the removal of text. This is cowardly, childish, absurd and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for such an act while attempting to engage in discourse–any discourse. This is a big short coming of communication on this type of medium, unfortunately, unless someone happened to take screen captures and such to record what one has said. Imagine doing something like this in a face to face discussion or debate and how ridiculous it would be–it just wouldn't work. People would have heard what you said and remembered it and you'd be forced to back up what you said, concede, or be silent and look foolish.

This is one thing that I really hate about politicians and the like, and I can't help but think about certain instances of emails or documents getting "accidentally" or even outright deleted/destroyed when feet are held to the fire. Or dishonest/disingenuous people on Youtube deleting videos for questionable reasons.

I have never deleted any posts on this forum, nor say on my blog, even when I was mistaken. This is because I don't care that I may be at times mistaken–all I really know is that I know nothing, and I am bound to be wrong at times or even frequently. That's what learning and the human condition is all about. Currently the most popular post on my blog is one where I in so many words admit I was wrong about a topic (barefoot/minimalist shoes for hiking) and have outright done a 180 degree turn and have gone from combat boots to Chucks and Trail Gloves. You or anyone else is also welcome to check out my heavy gear list that I posted on here several years ago, which included such things that I would probably never take out for backpacking, such as a K-Bar knife, axe, saw, and other very non-UL gear. I listened to what other people had to say–Mike Cleland's tips were particularly helpful, I recall–gave it a lot of thought, and you know what? I joined the the dark side in the end after much healthy skepticism, discussion, constructive criticism, and self-reflection. Not only have I gone full UL, I've even gone SUL and XUL and I challenge you to demonstrate how I did any of these things outside of a reasonable realm of "safe."

Now speaking of safe, from what I am able to gather though context alone, you seem to have claimed that UL is not safe or whatever. This is clearly, demonstrably false, and it seems like others have already pointed this out and shown their work. So I won't say much more on that point which does not follow, so let's move on to what you said recently, and I will be sure to quote you in case you decide to delete your own words again:

"Jake: Let me address the overarching issue with the forums on this website. There is a small group of people that comment in almost every single thread, who consistently tell everyone they know everything and everyone else is wrong or doing it wrong by browbeating them. You all look like pedantic @ssholes when you do this."

Then it should be very easy for you to provide us with examples of to support this claim. I will join you in criticizing them, so throw up a link to a specific post that you think shows a person from this small group that says that they "know everything and everyone else is wrong or doing it wrong" etc. I would agree with you that someone saying such a think would sound like someone with some issues, though I would say it was more a case of being pretentious and/or an essentialist. And I have big bones to pick with those kind of people.

"Monte: If the thread deletions are becoming epidemic that should tell you something about how you are treating others that are new or don't post incessantly on these forums. People delete threads because they are sick of being talked down to and being disrespected."

This is a non-sequitur. Clearly people delete threads or posts for a variety of reasons, not all of them are because they are "sick of being talked down to" etc. What about people that simply delete a double post? Or people that remove items from gear swap because they don't want to sell them anymore? And I don't agree that there is an epidemic of people deleting posts–however if people are deleting posts while attempting to engage in discourse/discussion/debate, that's another thing. As I have already made quite clear I hope, I am very much against that.

"Ken If I recall correctly you got in to a gigantic fight with the administrators of this website oh about a year/year and a half ago and had an epic and public hissy fit on here about it. Maybe you should take the plank out of your own eye before trying to take it out of other peoples."

Ken's issues with BPL are irrelevant. And even if he was behaving like you are, which I am not sure he is or not (seeing as you deleted your comments), it doesn't matter either–it's just an Ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. You can read more about that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

"Jake: To your second point, that was not my issue. I was not saying heavier is better I have been shedding heavy gear for the last 2-3 years as I could afford to do so. I said I felt the SUL gear lists I read left people ill equipped for emergencies of many varieties due to their lack of a proper FAK/insulation/shelter. At least get your facts right before you decide to be condescending."

One, you don't necessarily need to pay more to shed heavy gear, but that's a whole other can of worms. Next, you seem to making more bare assertions, in that you fail to provide a working example to support your claims. I too have seen some gear lists (from traditional to UL to SUL to XUL) that were not what I would consider in the realm of being reasonably "safe." But you said "the SUL gear lists" which implies all or the majority of them? At the very least I hope we can agree your choice of language here suggests that there a lot of examples of "ill equipped" SUL gear lists. As I said before, let's see one or more. Then we can discuss what is and is not "safe" and/or "ill equipped" or not. I do hope you understand that this can be a very plastic issue depending on a lot of variables based on the conditions and individuals related to a backpacking trip, right?

"Roger: As a BPL staff member I was hoping your comment would be the moderating voice and discourage negative behavior instead you are joining right in like this is some kind of frat party. Are chest bumps and keg stands in order after this? Is there a secret bro handshake you all do as well?? I am beginning to see why so many bloggers and others in the Backpacking community shun this website."

I don't see what the bid deal is here with what Roger said. You're grasping at straws here. He agreed with Ralph's post. And? He can do that if he wants, and I fail to see what bold or controversial points Ralph was making. And this is coming from someone that has gotten into it with Roger in the past, mind you. I have even accused him of being condescending to me in the past–but in fairness to him since then he's been more constructive/positive towards me in other discussions.

You make more bold claims sans support. I think of all your unsupported claims, this one might have a chance of being substantiated. I too have seen some people write critical things of BPL, and I myself have certain bones to pick with this site too. But I fail to see how this thread or Roger's reply does anything to shun other backpackers from this community. And even if you were right and there are a bunch of bloggers and other backpackers shunning this website, you have to show that they are doing it for the same questionable reasons you are forwarding. Surely if there are a fair amount of people (and I think there may be, just as with any forum) that shun this forum, they do it for different reasons. Perhaps for some of them UL is just not something they are interested in. Perhaps some are urban backpackers and this is not that relevant a forum for them. Be specific. And I think if you could actually develop this claim, and do it constructively, it could even serve to help improve this forum and this discourse in question. But as it is now, it comes off like you're just stamping your feet and throwing out a bunch of fallacies.

You'll need to do better than that if you want to engage in discourse. Otherwise prepare to be either ridiculed and/or ignored.

Heath, No one told you that you were doing anything wrong. They showed you spots where you could make changes without spending $$. I was actually quite nice to you and said you were on the right track with the new tent and quilt on the horizon, jackass. You were the one who was telling quite experienced people THEY were doing it wrong just because you don't understand it. Andrew Skurka circled the Yukon with 8-10lb base, LINT did triple crown+ with 8lb base, I could go on and on.. what have you done?

You deleted your thread and went out in a huff… I know I won't be taking the time to read your threads again.

Here is my FAK, it is 2oz. (my advil is missing in the pic) I was a certified athletic trainer for 10 years and have treated hundreds of injuries without much more. tell me i'm doing it wrong.. ;)

What'd I miss?

I and my tactics have changed over the last few years.

I too don't see how this has anything to do with that meltdown I had in '12.

And what did I say in this thread other than saying his deletions were lame? OMG! such harsh language. Oh yeah, put something in the subject box, Outrageous!

I though it was going well there at first.

Enjoying your videos Cesar.

"What'd I Miss?"

From Ralph B.:

To summarize:
Entering the forum under-equipped with an ultralight skin is reckless.
A thicker skin provides a safety margin if conditions turn out harsher than expected.

Or – Don't ask if you don't want to listen.

I fear I pushed him over the edge by framing my observations as questions. And then to add insult to injury, suggesting that his base weight was in fact lower than he thought it was.

I used to be a mod on cloth diapering forum. Every now and again someone would try to provoke an argument about the ways in which disposables are better. Different subject, exact same dynamic.

I think it was his skin thinner than Polycro that did him in. Trolls usually brag about an argument. not storm out.

I missed the deleted posts but I find no joy in pile ups; never have.

Hi Jake

Your FAK looks like mine, except I also have one tiny container of BFI in there and another tiny container of butesin picrate. Nalge 4 mL bottles – tiny.
BFI: bismuth formic iodide, surgical dusting powder, used in maternity wards.
Butesin picrate: powerful burn cream for people playing with stoves.

With band-aids, micropore tape, wads of TP and a handkerchief I was able to patch up a slashed knee (sharp ski edge) so the person could make it to a hospital. There was lots of blood around at first. Took 30 stitches in hospital later. Marvelous what one can do with band-aids and tape!

Cheers

"BFI: bismuth formic iodide, surgical dusting powder, used in maternity wards."

Roger, are you and your wife expecting a birth?

–B.G.–

Roger,

2 sizes of steri strips will let me close up cuts almost as well as sutures in most places. They are my favorite wound care product and have closed many cuts with them. The key is having the skin dry when you put it on.
The little cotton rolls are also amazing for stopping bleeding.. they are dense and are all i use for people with nosebleeds. but could easily be taped onto a cut.

also in my bag for multipurpose use.. TP, Small pack towel, spare socks, bear bag cord, safety pins, scissors, knife.

I met a wrestling coach from a semi local college on the Long Trail who was NOLS certified. his partner had a cut and he pulled out a 3 fold FAK that must have weighed 2+ lbs and knew my profession and asked me what mine looked like and he was shocked lol People think they are going to show up to a mass casualty emergency when mostly it is scrapes and blisters.

Hi Jake

> mostly it is scrapes and blisters.
With the occasional cut. But overall, exactly.

My FAK, *PRE*-BPL, would have allowed my to perform open heart surgery, with survival of the patient a distinct possibility (or maybe not …), but a lot of the stuff in it was so old (or out of useful lfe) and had never ever been touched. It was just dead weight.

If someone is seriously injured, I am not going to attempt bush-ER. I am going to yell for help.

Cheers
PS: My full current FAK does also include some string and a Bic and a scalpel blade.

I didn't think of that. My pack is light enough and I am fit enough that i'd probably be the person to bust ass to the nearest trailhead to go find help. I also carry a very loud whistle and cell phone.

Trying to do too much that is out of your scope of practice is a big no no professionally (well, formerly now) and on the trail. Trying stuff that you aren't trained to do can cause more issues than were there in the first place.