WELCOME to the great outdoors….. Now please, LEAVE no trace

[Dan]

Or the sierra big rock with little rocks for teeth

Google didn’t help me with this, Jerry. Can you post a photo?

[David Gardner]

Cat holes…pack out your TP…Leave no trace….

I’ve decided going forward to pack out all my waste. Yeah, ALL.

It’s already mandatory some places, like Mt. Shasta. Kits with inner bag, 12” x12” paper target (I cracked up the first time I saw one), and sealable outer bag at all trailheads.

The idea takes some getting used to for sure, just like purifying water and LNT did 50 years ago. But there are just too many people in wilderness areas now, beyond the “carrying capacity” of the land to decompose our biohazard traces.

Eventually I suppose they’ll be making packs with special pockets to hold sealable, disposable liners for such items.

Sigh. One of the joys of backpacking has been how the pack gets lighter as the trip goes on, which will now be limited to fuel use. Like switching from fossil fuels to renewables it’s inconvenient for awhile, but if we are truly, fully committed to LNT it’s obviously the way to go.

[Dan]

I’ve decided going forward to pack out all my waste. Yeah, ALL.

It’s already mandatory some places, like Mt. Shasta. Kits with inner bag, 12” x12” paper target (I cracked up the first time I saw one), and sealable outer bag at all trailheads.

To date, I’ve only done this where it is required, narrow river canyons in my case. I haven’t encountered such regulations in alpine environments yet, but I’m not surprised they are going into effect in more crowded places.

[Jerry Adams]

“Jerry. Can you post a photo?”

I haven’t been there but it’s a cute photo

There’s a big split rock that looks like a mouth

Then, people have put in small rocks that look like teeth

Everyone that does the JMT, when they cross that spot takes a photo of the rock

I think it’s on the JMT

In one minute of googling I couldn’t find it

[Dan]

I haven’t been there but it’s a cute photo

There’s a big split rock that looks like a mouth

Then, people have put in small rocks that look like teeth

Everyone that does the JMT, when they cross that spot takes a photo of the rock

I think it’s on the JMT

In one minute of googling I couldn’t find it

Thanks Jerry. Knowing that it is on the JMT helped me find a photo. Pretty funny. Compared to the giant cairns I posted, this would be really easy to return to a natural state.  ;-)

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, that’s it : )

 

[David Gardner]

JMT. That would be the Jurassic Monster Trail?

Perfect for Halloween!

[Jerry Adams]

is that what JMT stands for : )

that looks sort of like a Jurassic monster

forget John Muir

[jscott]

If you’re not using tp…please don’t dip your hand in my bag of gorp.

[Jerry Adams]

use your left hand for that

use your right hand for gorp and hand shaking

that is, if covid ever goes away

actually, maybe this is a good thing not shaking hands, we should consider that post covid : )

[Todd T]

I’ve decided going forward to pack out all my waste. Yeah, ALL.

… if we are truly, fully committed to LNT it’s obviously the way to go.

I respectfully disagree.  There are places where this makes sense, but far more places where it doesn’t.

[AK Granola]

Actually not using TP means my hands are MUCH cleaner, because my hands never go “back there.” A bidet solution (there are many options) means you’re shower clean, no TP is used, and although still mandatory to wash after, you’re much cleaner. But I agree- not sharing snacks with anyone, period.

[Jacob]

There was recently a BPL article, “Can Wilderness Include Humans” that discussed ‘the pristine’ in the context of the conquests which made the present-day government-managed wilderness possible. I don’t think the cultural contexts discussed in that article capture the big picture entirely. However, in that article Ben Kilbourne refers to much more when he asks, “What would it mean to consider humans as part of nature instead of separate from it?”

Jim Posewitz in his book, “Beyond Fair Chase” states the following regarding hunting, but I think it is true of all wilderness activities on public lands (just replace hunt, with hike, etc):

• First, the opportunity and privilege to hunt is yours by virtue of your citizenship.
• Second, the animals you hunt are the result of conservation efforts of recreational hunters who stopped the market hunting and commerce in wildlife.
• Third, these early hunters began the restoration and conservation efforts of wildlife that continues to this day.
• Fourth, as a hunter, you have the responsibility to future generations to see to the conservation of the animals you hunt.
• Fifth, you have the responsibility of being a safe and ethical hunter.

“Easily undone”, “natural state” ; To those who want to remove modern day cairns, do you also want to cut down trail trees shaped by Native Americans hundreds of years ago?

Conservationists have been advertising ‘the pristine’ in hopes of increasing political will to protect wilderness areas for recreation. Now that the wilderness is actually becoming popular it is being ruined in some places by heavy, irresponsible recreational use (like the way non-recreational use ruins wilderness areas, but to a lesser extent). I think the conservationist message needs to be readjusted to more align with what Jim Posewitz and Ben Kilbourne are talking about. Nature is not ‘pristine’ nor separate from us; it is our greater habitat and thus is intertwined with us. If we want to live in a polluted trash world, we will suffer the consequences of that. If we want to live in a pristine world, then we have to build and manage one by following LNT principles and voting for public lands to stay public, etc. People need to know they are apart of ‘it’, not just visiting ‘it.’

The pristine is something we actively create, not something we avoid destroying.

[jscott]

I go well off trail to poop, dig a six inch deep cathole, add water on top of the tp and cover it up. Tp is…made from wood, ultimately. It’s biodegradable. It’s origin was a forest. In an area of woods with downed trees weighing many tons, I don’t feel that my few ounces of tp is doing any damage. granted there’s always the possibility of a bear digging up my cathole, but given my tp is thoroughly drenched, it’s not going far. I don’t think my well off trail tp has been seen by anyone.

and here’s what I don’t understand. If bears dig up tp, why won’t they go for your used tp bag that you’re carrying out? so, doesn’t that mean it has to go in your bear canister? that’s a bridge too far for me.

Of course, you could burn it in a fire ring. I do that as well immediately if one is available.

 

[Jerry Adams]

In even a week the TP and poop are somewhat degraded.  In a year they’re un-noticeable.  In most areas, if you bury in a cathole it’s not a problem.

Once, on the beach of the Olympics, a racoon kept digging my poop up.  But then I re-buried it.  I’m assuming the racoon ate it.

Climbing some Cascade volcano – if you’re in a gravely un-organic area then probably carrying your poop and TP out is in order.

[AK Granola]

Probably most of the TP we all get to see is top of the ground type, from women using it for a quick wee. I see a lot of it on popular running trails near me. It’s always right next to the trail or even on the trail which boggles my mind a bit; there are woods all around to hide in! And no snakes to worry about. It really astounds me when I find a pile, which is fortunately rare. I found one on a popular bike/multiuse trail. The person took the risk while doing their biz that no high speed mountain biker would come zinging around the corner right at that moment. Just go 15 feet off trail, behind some large fallen trunk and dig a hole!

However on our Alaskan tundra, it’s a must NOT to bury TP; it won’t stay that way, it really won’t. And no one really digs down far enough because it’s rocky ground. Thick woods, yeah no one is going to find a well dug cathole. All depends on terrain.

[Jerry Adams]

If all you have is a piece of toilet paper, you could just tuck it under ground a bit, or under a bush where people wouldn’t see it.  The next time it rains will mostly disintegrate.

 

[obx hiker]

I camped at this spot above Wall Lake at the wall side bottom of Wall-Island Pass which is off-trail in the Wind River Range but not wayyyy off trail. Still no use path or anything in the area where I camped. People do pass through there but not many per season, or not enough to cut even a faint trail though there is a noticeable track up on the Island side of the pass and back down on the SE side of Wall Lake.

The labelled big rock above is @ 16 x 12?. Big enough to show pretty clearly in the satellite photo. The top right side was undercut and like a little alcove so I decided to use it for my morning constitutional. Had to try digging in about 5 or 6 spots before I found one where I was not conducting ‘archeology’. Pretty startling to say the least and definitely NOT of recent vintage. The bio products were basically gone but the paper lives on.  Maybe the alcove made for a little micro dry climate but …..

An eye opener for sure. We’ve hiked with ‘swag’ bags and rafted with same in several places in the 4-corners. I think this too is a matter of expanding upon or enlarging one’s conception of LNT.

Another way to put it would be to say there’s lnt and then there’s LNT. We are in fact a part of the ‘natural’ process. Let’s make an effort to allow that process to work in a manner that doesn’t really leave a trace. And where you really can’t like rafting along the Colorado or wherever then use a swag bag.

I take it as a challenge; partly leaned from growing up as a hunter. You learn to be sneaky, to blend in, hold still and observe.

[Jerry Adams]

maybe do it at the edge of a bush or tree.  At the drip line.  Where there are roots.

[Dan]

I think that the people saying it’s ok to bury TP because it degrades quickly are engaging in wishful thinking because they just don’t want to take the trouble to pack it out. Like @obx hiker, I come upon old TP far too often in the wilderness, and my dogs are particularly good at finding it. No, I’m not talking about a small piece lying on the ground near a trail from a woman urinating (although that’s totally inappropriate also).

I urge everyone to be self-aware and do the right thing. Maybe you are a bit squeamish about carrying it with you, but once you get used to it, it’s not a big deal at all. You may have the fantasy that nobody else is going to visit the place you’ve been, but that’s probably not true. I really don’t want to see your bleached white paper waste, partially disintegrated or not.

[Jerry Adams]

There have been thread(s) about experiments where TP and poop degraded quickly.  I’m not talking about permafrost or alpine gravel.

Where I’ve gone, occasionally I’ve dug a cathole and encountered remains from someone else.  No big deal, I’ve just moved over a bit.  Hardly recognizeable if I didn’t know about catholes.  Properly dug catholes are not a problem.

Where I’ve gone, there is no reason to carry my poop out

Squeamish – that would be emptying an RV poop tank.  Especially when it gets plugged and you have to poke at it to clear, and then there’s a huge gush.

[Paul Wagner]

Depends on where and what the environment is.  In the dry Sierra Nevada, TP can last for weeks and weeks.  Pack it out, as the regulations require, or go somewhere else, please.

[jscott]

Can last for weeks…well yes but it’s buried under dirt. Wet. A fallen log can last for a hundred years or more. TP is paper derived from wood. Wood comes from trees. Ergo…an ounce of tp buried underground that’s wet will simply be harmlessly absorbed into the soil.

Of course, there are environments where this isn’t true–examples have been offered already. Then you have to carry tp out.

I don’t see the issue. And again, are people carrying their soiled tp in bear canisters? If not, why?

[David Gardner]

Everything I’ve read says that TP does not biodegrade well. It’s not just wood anymore, it’s been processed and treated with various chemicals.

In the context of LNT, a pile of scat sure seems like a “trace.”

The fact that we can’t see something and that it biodegrades eventually does not seem like LNT, otherwise we could bury all of our paper trash.

It be great if everyone would follow any existing regulations for sure. And where there are no regulations yet,  voluntarily do the right thing to preserve the places we love so that more regulations will not become necessary.

Turkey roasting bags are airtight and cheap. Use small wastebasket bags for for each session, seal and put in turkey bag, seal turkey bag and put in black garbage bag, put garbage bag tear-resistant sack and carry on outside of pack.

Where bear cans are not required, hang it PCT style.

Where bear cans are required, unless someone has a better idea, bring a few extra layers of turkey bag, seal VERY carefully, and put in can.

[jscott]

Well, my bear canister is always chock full for the first few days. That poop is gonna squish.

By the way all the animals in the woods poop. and usually in far less eco friendly fashion than me. It’s been going on since the dawn of time.

I might suggest that hanging bags of poop and tp pct style will introduce more bad consequences than simply burying your business in a responsible manner. that style of hanging has caused all sorts of issues that rangers have been trying to undo for decades. And in fact throughout the Sierra that would be verboten.

[Author]

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