- Oct 22, 2019 at 11:27 am #3615188
I think Seek Outside states it is 45-50L and that’s probably correct. It’s a similar volume than my SWD Long Haul 50 and is definitely smaller than my Z-Packs Arc Haul. It was a tight fit for me with a Bearikade Weekender, but it worked with everything inside the pack. It would have worked better with a week’s worth of food in an Ursack.Feb 6, 2020 at 6:59 pm #3630184
A little note , the product should be online in a few daysFeb 6, 2020 at 8:43 pm #3630191bradmacmtBPL Member
Nice to see forward pull hipbelt tightening… hopefully a way can be found to reincorporate this intelligent (20th century) design back into the regular lineup?Feb 6, 2020 at 9:09 pm #3630195
It is in the 2020 line along with some other small upgradesFeb 8, 2020 at 12:14 pm #3630451Federico CalboliBPL Member
@bradmacmt I added forward pull by taking 4 plastic O rings (they are actually rectangular), cutting off a small slice, threading them through the molle of the belt, and done — forward pull.
The reason why I did that is the mundane fact this way the belt webbing is out of the way when I pee… did not otherwise feel the need to do it (but I do need to pee from time to time).
In any case, now I get field replacement ability off all parts + forward pull. Really people, it’s not such big deal. I do get SO has to do what customers want, but my mod cost me less than 2 €, took 20 minutes to implement and I can carry spares with me in case stuff breaks in the field. And I get the webbing out of way when I pee. And, yes, forward pull.Feb 8, 2020 at 12:19 pm #3630453Federico CalboliBPL Member
@ktimm Fun fact — I have flown multiple times the size of equator on a revo frame, down to 24 inch, and a gen I peregrine. Never an issue. I have stopped flying now (I do sincerely hope!), so I am not sure I’d splurge for a new pack. Honestly I want my revo pack on my funeral pyre with me. It is that good.Feb 9, 2020 at 4:11 am #3630519
Can anyone who has seen the prototype please explain how they’ve done the frame?
They’ve said they didn’t find that a twin stay setup gave them the “Seek Outside” feel they were after, and that the Flight frame retains some features from the bigger packs.
Everyone seems to agree that the design for their load haulers is a game changer, so I’m intrigued to see what they’ve done for this smaller pack.Feb 9, 2020 at 8:18 am #3630536
I used the prototype this summer for a week in the Sierra’s doing a JMT/SHR loop. The frame is a highly shaped tubular aluminum frame which is a departure from the “standard” frame design that HMG/SWD/ULA etc use of flat single or double stays. The Flight frame is more of an “O” than a “U” like in the Divide/Unaweep style packs. The Flight also has a horizontal stay in the middle of the pack.
The closest thing I might could compare it to as far as the frame is designed might be the Osprey Exos packs.
My normal packs are an older Seek Outside Unaweep 4800 (stripped to under 3lbs) for loads over 30lbs or large volumes and a SWD Long Haul 50 (modified) for loads under 30lbs and the Flight carried excellent and I am seriously considering buying one when they are released even though I already have a couple of packs in that size/weight range and honestly need another pack like a hole in the head.
I’ve used the following packs in the ~40-60L 2LB range and the Flight was as good or better than any of them.
SWD Long Haul 50
HMG Southwest 3400
Gossamer Gear Mariposia Plus
and I’m sure a few others I forgot along the wayFeb 9, 2020 at 8:38 am #3630539
It’s not that different than our standard frame , just sized down on width at the bottom to ~ 10 inches. Basically it’s a shaped 7075 aluminum perimeter frame with an optional cross stay.
KevinFeb 9, 2020 at 8:41 am #3630540bradmacmtBPL Member
It is in the 2020 line along with some other small upgrades
Great to hear!Feb 9, 2020 at 8:43 am #3630541
Also unlike the Exos which we consider sort of a universal profile / body avoidance frame the Flight follows closer to body much like our big packs, a bit of body avoidance, but mostly fit to back profile.Feb 9, 2020 at 11:04 am #3630554
How wide is the hip belt? narrower than what was on the divide?Feb 9, 2020 at 11:18 am #3630555
It’s a little less wide, and a little less thick but with essentially the same tailored cut. Shoulder straps are not as wide, and more tailored and can sort of adjust to your trap angle.
The belt and frame are also removable so it can be used as frameless / belt less if desired. I know one tester used it belt less mostly. I’ve used it in every manner I can think of.
Honestly, for me, it feels a lot like our big packs just smaller more nimble. I probably prefer it at the lighter side of the spectrum, consider them about even at mid weights say sub 40.
Some will depend on fit. It’s super simple to fit .. but not as adjustable over all as the big packs (saving weight and simplifying)
KevinFeb 9, 2020 at 11:26 am #3630556
When you remove the hip belt and frame and carry it as frameless, are there attachment points to attach a one inch hip belt? If it carries well as a frameless, then it will be a great one bag for all purposes…..usually framed packs do not have great shoulder straps to carry as a frameless pack. But, if this pack is comfortable as frameless and framed – then that is an attractive option.Feb 9, 2020 at 12:41 pm #3630560
Currently we are not making a webbing belt , but it would be easy for someone to do. In the back of my mind, I sort of envisioned a climbing belt IF people ended up thinking that was desirable. Myself, I would for peak bagging and stuffFeb 9, 2020 at 1:20 pm #3630565
So if I’m understanding you, the frame is still U shaped?
I find this interesting, because pretty much everyone else with this type of frame uses an inverted U.
You guys have clearly done a lot of testing. What advantage does the U shape offer? And with the smaller pack, do you still need the articulation joint, or can you dispense with that?
Thanks!Feb 9, 2020 at 2:16 pm #3630570
Geoff – I’m pretty sure the frame on my Flight Prototype was not a U but a O with tubing on all four sides to form the frame. I really wish I’d taken better pictures of some of the technical details of the pack. I have quite a few pictures of the front of the pack and quite a few pictures of me wearing the pack, for what whatever reason, I didn’t seem to take any pictures of the frame system or suspension itself. I’m sure Kevin has the details.
We went over several Class 2 and 2/3 passes and the pack was very nimble.Feb 9, 2020 at 2:46 pm #3630576
Well we do things differently than other people, so maybe they are right , maybe we are on approach. Who knows. I like our packs and think they carry well.
It is a similar U shape but with a top bar so effectively an O maybe that is stretched on 4 sides almost rectangle ?
I’ve done class 3 + / 4 ridges with it. I did let it ride a little low on the class 4 parts so I had better head movement with a climbing helmet.
No articulation joint. However, the complete frame is held together by tension.
Really, I think it is a really well done pack that is compelling and I feel it feels like a SO pack .. but nothing ground breaking in our approach IMO. Really we tried to be ground breaking , I had all sorts of out of the box framing ideas .. like graded for weight like a compound bow .. pick your weight graded framing system .. but in the end we went with the Keep It Simple Approach. There really isn’t a secret to be found IMO .. just simple and well done and I hope the market agrees.
KevinFeb 9, 2020 at 3:52 pm #3630590
Brad & Kevin – thanks for the info!
I’m always interested in what Kevin has to say – one of the smartest people in the game, I think.Feb 9, 2020 at 3:52 pm #3630591
Won’t the U shape provide a direct connection of the frame and hip belt and hence facilitate better carry? The top bar prevents the bag from sagging on the sides – GG Mariposa frame is too narrow I feel and if you keep heavy stuff on the side pockets, they start drooping down on the sides. Sierra Designs Flex Capacitor has Y frame with direct connection to the Hip belt and it carries awesome. Exped Lightning has T frame which also is a great load hauler. I think of the U as the poor man’s H frame of the external frame packs – SO Divide is like that.
With the inverted U, the belt connection points have to be on the edges which may not provide that good a wrap and hence poorer load transfer. I suppose the legs of the inverted U can slant towards the middle to almost form a triangle – not that sharp – to provide the direct connection to the belt.
Just curious – who has the inverted U?
I think most of the Opsrey packs are O shaped?Feb 9, 2020 at 4:21 pm #3630592
Thanks but that is certainly an overstatement. I really just like to try and resolve what I feel are weaknesses in concepts and to do it as simply as possible .. thats all … and I usually start ideas without any real pre-conceived notions of where they end up. I also like to find ways to accelerate test concepts so you can make pretty quick binary decisions . Keep a real open mind and try to figure out when it’s a bad idea or bad implementation of an idea.
Really our big packs were actually a start from scratch from the ground up build .. pretty much assume nothing and just focus on what attributes you want to emphasis and then look at ways to achieve them. We ended up with a pretty different pack … which is actually a BIG problem as well .. because often people are like what is this .. and simply don’t understand it .. or feel it looks too different.
With the Flight …. it was sort of the same desires, but shrink it , minimize it, make it a better scrambling platform .. hopefully make it simple for people to understand .. and this is where it ends up.Feb 9, 2020 at 6:01 pm #3630599
You’re too modest, I think. The process of thinking things through from first principles and striving for simple solutions is precisely what most gear designers never seem to do, which is why so many of your products stand out from the competition.
We ended up with a pretty different pack … which is actually a BIG problem as well .. because often people are like what is this .. and simply don’t understand it .. or feel it looks too different.
Sadly, the best solution technically is often not the most successful commercially, for just the reasons you describe. With packs, the big commercial successes like Osprey and Gregory seem to keep within parameters that are familiar to customers. And they pile feature on dubious feature, presumably for marketing reasons. Innovative operations like yours rely heavily on word of mouth, I guess, especially in a niche market like the hunting community.
The Flight could take you into a more mainstream leisure and travel market, but the issue there is differentiation. As you say, there’s probably no arcane secret to making a mid-sized pack – it’s the cumulation of many well executed details that makes the difference. And that’s hard to communicate to prospective customers.
For what it’s worth, from someone who has tried hard to educate themselves in marketing, customer testimonials could play a big role in moving SO forwards – because the people who use them really do seem to love your products and there’s nothing more convincing than a happy customer. Solid processes for gathering and using testimonials is the proven way to differentiate products that are hard to explain.Feb 9, 2020 at 8:31 pm #3630629
Yes we always have been about improving the customer experience .. it’s in our mission statement on the first page.
It’s funny you mention the Flight that way .. and probably mostly correct.
Regarding the big pack makers .. don’t get me started but mostly agree. They seem to built for what people think they want instead of what they need. I guess if they think they want it then they need it. But I really like to reduce stuff as much as possible to least effort.
I’ve mentioned sort of the thought process on a couple podcasts and talking to people. I used to be a computer security researcher .. and really the thought process was basically breaking, fixing, and simplifying .. not that much different.
KevinFeb 9, 2020 at 9:03 pm #3630637Brian GoodeBPL Member
Sort of like I describe to people in my knife designs Kevin. “There is complexity, in the simplicity.” – B.Goode.
that’s the hard part. Removing all that isn’t needed yet excelling at what it is meant to do.
guess that’s why I carry your packs! I took one of my 3 Evolution 4800’s out for 12 miles in the mountains over the weekend. All I ever hope Ill use. That’s why I have 3 :)
oh – and 2 other Unaweeps also ha ha!Feb 11, 2020 at 9:09 am #3630805RobBPL Member
I hope this is up on the website soon. Looking forward to see the final product and pricing.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.