Seek Outside Flight Pack [was Upcoming light packs from SO]

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

V-15 XPAC = Give me a proven advantage

Well, that is just it: I don’t know,

I know this:

X21RC:

• 4,4 oz/yd²
• 210 D ripstop nylon face
• X-ply
• .5 mil PET film

V15:

• 4,8 oz/yd²
• 150 D plain weave polyester face
• .25 mil PET-film
• 50D taffeta polyester backer

Weight: given what you usually need for pack, this difference seems neglible.

Durability: no idea as one source their is no real difference between the durability of the 150D-face fabric in V15 and the 70D-face fabric in VX7 while RBTR themself claims that V15 is 2X as durable as VX7. I only know that the ripstop usually used in XPAC and maybe also the X-ply may have a negative effect on durability.

Waterproofness: most packbackfabrics have a PU-coating to make them waterproof but that PU-coating degrades over the years while the PET-film in XPAC-fabrics make them waterproof for a lot longer.

Waterabsorption: both face fabrics have a DWR but we know how long that stays effective. Then, those face fabrics will begin to absorb water (and weight). Polyester fabrics are supposed to absorb less then nylon fabrics of the same denier.

Interior visibility: as X21 has no backer, the face fabric also determines the inside color. While the backer like in V15, etc … is supposed to be always white.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

Dan and others

We do on occasion see a delam or bubbles but it is rare. It has happened in all of variants but has been rare. DP has been good about replacing it, and we replace the bag. Most that I have seen have been in the roll top shroud area, and I think most have been aesthetic and looked like they could become a problem but were not. If anything, the white scrim probably covers it up. I’ve done several things trying to force a delam on just random fabric and could not replicate it with heat or any other environmental variant.

I know no one wants to hear this, but no one is perfect. We are not perfect, neither is DP, neither are any suppliers we have dealt with. I have seen no see-um with white stripes, nylon that did not pass muster etc. It is really how you recover when there are issues and how you take care of it.  In my opinion DP is not perfect, but it is really good and balanced backpack fabric.  When there have been issues it was resolved. The issues I have seen probably did not impact performance at all. For backpacking performance and cost, that and 330 or 500D cordura and good Xgrids are the top of my list (leaving out the Ultra premium possibilities for now).

I’m traveling the next few days picking up some machinery. I’ll check back in a few days if there are any other questions. Otherwise, I think I have answered most of them.

 

Thanks

Kevin

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Thanks Kevin. That’s a well reasoned and thoughtful answer.

“RBTR themself claims that V15 is 2X as durable as VX07.”
I’m not sure what tests RSBTR is referring to, but DP’s own ASTM test results list identical abrasion resistance for V15 and VX07 (500 cycles). VX21 and X21 RC are 900 IIRC. I’d certainly take X21 over V15.

[Thomas Willard]

What torso range is the Gila style pack recommended for?

[Geoff Caplan]

I see that the X-Grids make it onto Kevin’s short-list.

I accept that they look great, and are used by a number of the better specialist makers like MLD and Laufbursche.

But they don’t offer durable waterproofing. They’re expensive. And in at least one test, the abrasion result was dire:

https://hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/forumid/23/postid/10747/scope/posts

Other than the visuals, X-Pac and Cordura seem to offer considerably more bang for the buck. Or am I missing something?

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I don’t think you are missing anything Geoff. I think also that “Dyneema” sells packs for those manufacturers…most people don’t realise or really understand that the Dyneema grid doesn’t really affect abrasion resilience and long term durability of the fabric.

[Brad Rogers]

I have found that 210d Dyneema Grid is more abrasion resistant (say to granite) then XPac X21 at about the same weight.  Of course you’re right it’s not waterproof so X-Pac has a clear advantage there.  To be honest I have packs with both fabrics and like both.   The X Pac VX fabrics are quite a bit heavier (VX07 with a 70d face fabric is the same weight as 210d Dyneema X) so they are less appealing.   I’ve had no issues with delamination with my X21 pack but I probably only have ~55 night with it (all off trail in some pretty rough terrain).

I really like both fabrics and would probably choose X21 over Dyneema Grid, but would choose Dyneema Grid over VX21.  I’m not sure what X33 weighs per sq/yd but it might be a nice fabric if you could get it non camo.

A 210d woven Spectra or Dyneema laminated to a PET layer might be the perfect pack fabric if that is even feasible.  Of course I’m sure it would be cost prohibitive.

[Geoff Caplan]

Hmm – I can’t really see what Dyneema Grid offers over boring old Cordura. With a good branded or military spec Cordura, you know that the yarn and weave will be bomber and the coating will be decent. With some random Dyneema or Spectra Grid you have no such assurances, while you are paying a substantial premium for a gridstop which appears to have no functional value.

In the HillPeople test the X-Grid supplied by Dave Chenault started to fail after a dismal 8 abrasion cycles.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

No disagreement on Xgrid limitations and price however it does a good job of limiting failures. In my opinion, Xgrid is generally overpriced at the consumer level. I am familiar with that report, the person worked for us for a couple years. BTW, while people do complain about the X in Xpac as a possible abrasion issue, it does increase tear strength as well .. just an FYI

[David Chenault]

The X-grid in the test Luke did (many moons ago) was 140D, actually from a deceased Gossamer Gear Gorilla.  The 210D stuff which is far more common has a considerably better base fabric, and in my experience holds up far better (I haven’t put it under a taber tester).  The dyneema grid in the common 210D xgrid is a bit useless, but the base fabric in the variant sold my Thru-Hiker for ages is really good.  It doesn’t offer much compared Corduras of similar weight, but sourcing ~300D Cordura at all, and certainly in anything other than black, is hit or miss.  500D Cordura is classic for a reason, but overkill for a variety of reasons (it gets bulky in seams, and once heavily used water weight gain becomes a significant issue relative to lighter fabrics).

I haven’t used X15, but given how taber results don’t generalize consistently to real world experience, and how the face fabric in every variation of VX21 and X21 I’ve used has always proven more fragile than it ought to be, I wouldn’t dismiss it without field use.

Kevin keys in on a significant weakness in the X variations of DP fabrics, that any bartacking not into a seam cuts the laminate around the perimeter of the stitching, which will propagate into significant delamination over time.  My guess is that given comparable time and flexion we’ll end up with functional life comparable to PU coating, which take away a lot of the purpose of DP stuff in the first place.  This can be designed around, but amounts to a significant limitation, especially for non-assembly line makers.  I haven’t had the same thing happen with VX fabrics.

[Brad Rogers]

Your probably right.  330d Codora is ~4oz a yard

[Tom Osborne]

Umbrella? Snow?

[Geoff Caplan]

Dave – many thanks for the input. The voice of experience, and always worth listening to!

VX21 is actually a touch heavier than Cordura PU 330, which is going to be much tougher, though I agree that colour choice is limited. Moving up to Cordura PU 500 would add perhaps 50g to the weight of a 40L pack compared to the VX21, but in return for that modest penalty you’re getting a whole different level of durability, and a very wide choice of colours at affordable prices. Quite a good tradeoff, I think, for anyone but the most dedicated gram-weenie.

I’m not entirely sure I’m buying the idea that Cordura PU is punitively heavier when wet, but to avoid thread drift I’ve opened a new thread on the issue. We cross-posted so it covers some other points that you addressed above, but I’ve got things wrong on the weight issue please correct me –

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/does-x-pac-really-offer-weight-performance-benefits-over-cordura/

[Roman Vazhnov]

Just watched the youtube video. Is the hipbelt attached by velcro? Thus no direct connection with the frame?

[James Marco]

Roman, yeah. That same style was a failure with GG’s earlier Gorilla’s. They added hip-belt clips for locking the frame in and improved load carrying immensely.

[bradmacmt]

It is a dual adjust / center buckle forward pull. So centered buckle, go to ladder locks locate top and bottom so you can adjust top and bottom tension individually (It seems belt buckle closure is a religion for some) .

Yes, and apparently I’m the high priest. :)

Now if you’d go back to a forward pull on your big packs I’d be an owner… even local Mystery Ranch, nearly the last holdout of sidepull hipbelts, has finally seen the light and gone to a forward pull.

[Federico Calboli]

Now if you’d go back to a forward pull on your big packs I’d be an owner… even local Mystery Ranch, nearly the last holdout of sidepull hipbelts, has finally seen the light and gone to a forward pull.

@bradmacmt four lightweight D-rings/whatever in the PALS attachment and you can have forward pull on today’s hipbelt, with the added advantage all components are field replaceable.  In fact you can add all sort of buckles there if you want dual locking points (D rings are enough to have a second leverage point).

This has been discussed before.  The weight penalty is trivial especially given the advantage of field replacements.  FWIW I am personally perfectly happy with the belt as is (and can always add the forward pull should I ever want it).

 

[bradmacmt]

four lightweight D-rings/whatever in the PALS attachment and you can have forward pull on today’s hipbelt, with the added advantage all components are field replaceable. In fact you can add all sort of buckles there if you want dual locking points (D rings are enough to have a second leverage point).

While I very much appreciate your reply, I find this an incredibly lame compromise.

Have you actually used the “D” rings and made a forward pull belt, while using it off trail with an 80lb load?

[Federico Calboli]

Have you actually used the “D” rings and made a forward pull belt, while using it off trail with an 80lb load?

Nope, the belt as is was perfectly fine for that goal under said conditions.  I was hauling rocks for my wife’s gardening project (while being able to lug stupidly heavy loads of rocks has a strong ‘feel good factor’ to an ageing man as I am, it did feel pretty stupid by the end of the trek up the hill. The fact I could barely get up should have been a warning).  I accept that D rings are not as aesthetically pleasing as a different solution, but as I mentioned you can look at other types of buckles.  I have in fact snapped one of the buckles used to tighten the shoulder harness and replaces with a sea-to-summit one.  The same buckle could be placed in the PALs and that would be it.

[bradmacmt]

Nope, the belt as is was perfectly fine for that goal under said conditions. I was hauling rocks for my wife’s gardening project (while being able to lug stupidly heavy loads of rocks has a strong ‘feel good factor’ to an ageing man as I am, it did feel pretty stupid by the end of the trek up the hill. The fact I could barely get up should have been a warning). I accept that D rings are not as aesthetically pleasing as a different solution, but as I mentioned you can look at other types of buckles. I have in fact snapped one of the buckles used to tighten the shoulder harness and replaces with a sea-to-summit one. The same buckle could be placed in the PALs and that would be it.

I’d respectfully suggest you have in no way given the pack with heavy weight and side pulls an adequate test. Schlepping rocks around a few hundred feet is in no way a real world test. Think 80-100 lbs of dead elk in the mountains over many miles, off trail, through blow-down hell.

Rigging a side-pull belt with some Rube Goldberg arrangement to try to make it what it should have been to begin with is a non-starter.

Aesthetics has nothing to to with it…

[Nathan Coleman]

We’re shipping the bigger packs with a couple G-Hooks so customers can effect a forward pull, at their discretion.

G-Hooks are milspec and metal, and not necessary to the belt working, so durability isn’t a concern.

[Federico Calboli]

I’d respectfully suggest you have in no way given the pack with heavy weight and side pulls an adequate test. Schlepping rocks around a few hundred feet is in no way a real world test. Think 80-100 lbs of dead elk in the mountains over many miles, off trail, through blow-down hell.

Just so we are square it was over two miles uphill in Sheffield, UK.  If the Peak District seems flat to you we can petition a name change.

[Federico Calboli]

Rigging a side-pull belt with some Rube Goldberg arrangement to try to make it what it should have been to begin with is a non-starter.

In general, you seem to be complaining that design is not what you’d like to have — which is perfectly fine, since the money you spend is yours in the first place.  At the same time keep in mind that the target customers of SO are hunters, not light/ultralight hikers, so I assume that the belt design does get feedback from people actually using it (I have provided unsolicited feedback to SO, but not about the belt).  If you want the feedback of a hunter that deals with the same exact conditions as you do I am sure you can find them on Rokslide.

This is a bit like the discussion about the gatekeeper buckles. The people with the strongest feelings about them seem people who do not own a pack using them and resent the fact the packs have them.

 

[Jarred O]

It’s uncanny how much it resembles the gatekeeper discussion.

Issues of 100 lb elk hauls seems out of place in a thread about ~40-45 liter packs.

[James Marco]

Hummmmph….yeah, this is supposed to be about lightweight stuff.

 

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