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Hi geoff
Well, crampons up a gentle snow slope … who looks at their feet? But coming down here without looking very closely at your feet?
I think what this shows is that not all conditions suit all packs. Fair enough.
(Coming off Mt Guouogang, Kanangra Boyd NP, AU)
Cheers
Well that picture says a thousand words… I would think on my shoulders the balancing force of the front packs would increase the tension on the upper traps.. A disaster in my case as the left shoulder is pretty darn twitchy. Any front loading on me would have to be on the hip belt. I do like essentials close at hand and will be looking for big front pockets… Not that big! So fellas I have got to start putting a pack on again… Can’t really fit day hike solo essentials into my lumbar pack if carrying more than 3L water (not much water to purify away from the creeks this time of year in AZ) so got to get a pack soon. Might as well go around 40 L and have dual purpose day/overnight pack to get me started…. That’ll force me to choose additional gear wisely when I get around to it. What’s your vote on best pack for transferring load from shoulders to hip carrying absolute all in max 30 pounds and still ok around 10 pounds?
Hi Anne
I will have to let American readers recommend any current packs: I have my own which are MYOG. What I will STRONGLY recommend to you is that you buy a pack with a good harness. For day use not so important, but for 30 lb essential for you imho.
We have a series of articles on internal frame packs which would be a good starting point I think:
https://backpackinglight.com/lw_internal_frame_packs_part_1a/
https://backpackinglight.com/lw_internal_frame_packs_part_1b/
https://backpackinglight.com/lw_internal_frame_packs_part_1c/
https://backpackinglight.com/lw_internal_frame_packs_part_2/
Cheers
Well, I’m beginning to understand why the big brands are so reluctant to introduce new concepts – people seem quick to reject them out of hand without giving them a fair trial.
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Roger – Aarn users can see their feet! If you couldn’t, then your pack wasn’t properly fitted. It’s a New Zealand company, for goodness sake – a country renowned for challenging conditions underfoot, and it’s endorsed by leading NZ mountain safety experts. Do you think he’d have such a dedicated user-base if the packs were dangerous, or that Ryan would have recommended the design? I routinely use my Aarn on conditions like you illustrate with no problems at all. You’re simply mistaken – I don’t know what more I can say.
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Anne –
Well that picture says a thousand words… I would think on my shoulders the balancing force of the front packs would increase the tension on the upper traps.. A disaster in my case as the left shoulder is pretty darn twitchy. Any front loading on me would have to be on the hip belt.
Actually, the whole concept is to transfer all the load to the hip belt. The shoulder straps simply balance the pack – the vertical and horizontal weight on the shoulders can be adjusted to near-zero if you like. In fact, if you’re prepared to sacrifice the ability to use the backpack without the front pockets you don’t need shoulder straps at all.
This isn’t some gimmick Aarn dreamed up in the bath. It’s the result of a long term collaboration with respected sports-scientist Ray Loyd and his colleagues to find a healthier way to carry loads in the backcountry. The benefits have been extensively studied and verified.
The findings are particularly important for women, as the shorter your spine, the more the drawbacks of conventional designs are intensified and the total forces on the body grow exponentially.
The figures in the diagram below illustrate this clearly. With a balanced 16 kilo load, the total forces on the body are 16 kilos, posture and gait is natural, and there is no pull back on the shoulders. With an average sized guy and a conventional pack the total force climbs to 20.5 kilos, you get significant forward lean, and there is significant backward pull on the shoulders. With an average sized woman, the total force reaches 24 kilos and the lean and backward pull are even greater. Just look at how far the woman’s head has moved from her centre of gravity compared to the guy in the bodypack.
This is simply the laws of physics, and you’d see worse figures with designs such as the Ospreys and the Arc-Blast that move the load even farther back. Just check out pics of thru-hikers. Their base load is light, but once you factor in a few days of food and/or a desert water load they are all leaning forwards at the waist.
The sports science has explored the benefits of a balanced load on the flat, ascending and descending. The results are striking, even though they deliberately measured a sub-optimal weight distribution with the Aarn on the assumption that things won’t be ideal in the field. He’s what they found:
You’ll find more detail here: http://www.aarnpacks.com/page3 and here: http://www.aarnpacks.com/interview
To summarise, what Ray Loyd has found is that most of the issues with conventional packs are caused by the unnatural gait that they force, rather than by the loads themselves. There’s nothing you can do with a conventional design that will deliver the benefits of a balanced load and a natural gait – it’s just the laws of physics. This isn’t just another minor variation in pack design – it’s an inherently healthier way to carry a load. Add the PacerPoles and lightweight zero-drop shoes and the difference is dramatic: your body can work naturally under load.
If you have a dodgy shoulder, then this is the pack for you. I presume that in Arizona you’ll often have to carry water so there’s a limit how light you can go. Once you’re above 12-15 lbs or so the Aarn comes into its own. The Aarn site has a raft of testimonials from users who found that their back and shoulder problems were eliminated by the bodypack concept. Personally I get shoulder pain even with a lightweight daypack. I’ve used many packs over the years, and this is the only design that has never caused me any back or shoulder pain. No pain at all – zero – nada. Day after day, carrying alpine camping gear and up to a week of food. It’s hard not to become evangelistic when you get a result like that.
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James – thanks for the additional info. It seems that you gave the concept a sincere trial.
But when you say it added load to your shoulders and spine, I know for sure there was something wrong with your design because the result should be the exact opposite – load on the shoulders and spine should be virtually eliminated.
Also, the terrain you describe, with up to 80 degrees of slope, is borderline mountaineering and as I have already conceded this is not ideal for the front-pocket concept. The bodypack idea can be used for technical alpinism – you substitute the front pockets for a design of gear rack that provides similar benefits with weight distribution. But for very steep scrambling your best option is to put everything into the backpack till you hit more reasonable ground, as I suggested above. With my current prototype the pockets will weigh around 80 grams each, so having them in my backpack for a few hours is a small price to pay on a long hike where they’ll mostly be in use. And because they are removable, I can get them out of the way if I need to. With conventional packs the side-pockets can be a real pain when bushwhacking or scrambling.
But the scenario you describe is pretty extreme. For 99% of backpacking the Aarn is ideal.
Geoff, sure looks like an interesting concept. I will start out with overnights and a traditional UL backpack, but keep an open mind. If I ever get to NZ I’ll visit a shop and get fitted and give it a go…. Thanks for the heads up.?
Geoff, thanks for bringing this to everyone’s attention, in the best tradition of BPL it is good to learn about new options and new ideas.
I question some of the “research” and the invocation of the “laws of physics”. For instance I think that some bending at the waist is actually sometimes good, and it has to do with how much you use your knees and what kind of spring you have in your step. I can’t support that argument, I am not a kinesiologist, but I feel it. I can guarantee that I would not like wandering through a difficult talus field completely upright.
Nevertheless I don’t think the diagram you attached is helping your argument. If I had to carry any one of those three miserable looking monster backpacks, I think that I would just hang it all up and go surfing instead…
Hi Geoff
Oh, I am sure there are some dedicated believers in Aarn’s load balancing. It probably suits them very well. But I would not agree that I have rejected the concept ‘out of hand’ by any means. I had a pack sent to me by his company, and I took it on several trips. For me, it just did not work out, for the reasons I gave. That’s not ‘rejecting out of hand’, nor is is ‘simply mistaken’: it’s hard experimental field test results.
Aarns and Ray made some assumptions in their analysis, the principal one being that the wearer bends forwards from the waist. Well, not everyone does that. Many of us keep our backs straight and bend forwards from the ankle instead. That requires a far smaller tilt at the ankle. I suspect that bending a small amount at the ankle is also easier if you are carrying a light pack rather than a heavy one, as the packs in that illustration are … ridiculous.
Mind you, my opinion at the time was that the pack they had sent me, knowing my height, was wrongly designed. It seemed to be made for someone with a spine about 100 – 150 mm longer than mine. Even so, it would still have been too hot for Australia (NZ is much colder), and I could not see MY feet anyhow. And the pack seemed to be too narrow. To my mind, those remain problems for the design they had then.
If Aarn has sorted out the torso length problem for shorter people, that would be good. But I would need to field test a new pack before changing my mind. I want first-hand (user) experience, not someone else’s (vendor) analysis. If you want to tell him to send me a new pack for testing, sure, go ahead.
Cheers
Roger, I have had an Aarn pack for two years (Featherlight Freedom with Sport pockets) it was an improvement over the Ospreys, Macpacs, etc, from day one, but…and it is big but, it took me 12 months to get it dialed in, I only persisted because every time I changed back to one of my other packs they didn’t work either. I am around your height (165cm). The front pockets don’t make it feel any hotter (I have only used it in Victoria an Tassie), the length issue I would guess has been fixed because I could adjust for even shorter back lengths, the pockets really do not get in the way going down anything (they do get in the way of shear vertical climbs up and down when you want to hug close to the rock face!). Oh and I have added fleece as extra padding to the hip belt.
The ‘proof’ for me was placing 10kg in the back (yes I know that isn’t UL) and then slowly adding weight to the front pockets, the more I added the better it felt, and more to the point it didn’t feel much different than the lower starting weight. I wear it on training walks with 12/6kg ratio (so 18kg) and no it isn’t light, but much better than if I just place 18kg in the back section. I carry about 10-12kg total for a 5-7 day walk, but have added an extra 6kg in water when I needed to for a hot day and dry camp.
And as you would know a sample on one is not a “hard experimental field test result” (equally applies to my experience!). Like all these things…personal opinion as to what works for each person is the only hard experimental field test result,
Help!
I am being outvoted!
Anyone else?
Cheers
I don’t care how much science was involved in the design, I don’t carry 16+ kg and so do not see how an Aarn could make my life easier.
Geof, heare is a link to a writer about the High Peaks in the ADK’s. http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2016/10/slide-climbing-giant-mountains-diagonal-slide.html?utm_source=Adirondack+Explorer+%26+Adirondack+Almanack&utm_campaign=bc9627a3a2-Adirondack_Almanack_RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b49eb0d11b-bc9627a3a2-24936693&mc_cid=bc9627a3a2&mc_eid=821e343f00
While I have done 7 in a weekend, it is more usual to get in one or two per day. Many are doubled, ie, too close to be called individual peaks. Some are walk ups. But, most border on technical climbs. I have not been up there in about five or six years. I am really too old for that stuff. Like I say, even the “easy” trails are limited to about 12mi per day up there.
I liked the idea, but as Roger says, a light pack (~23 pounds for a 10 day hike) is easiest. Any leans are compensated by ankles, not so much at the waist, though this is normal going up and down hills. Even normal hiking terrain elsewhere in the ADK’s has a lot of ups and downs between lakes and rivers. Front packs do not work as well for week long trips as simply stripping gear to minimal 20-25 pound loads and smaller packs. At these weights, I never bothered with the front packs again because they become excess weight, anyway. And, the wider hip belt, similar to the larger Gregories, is rather bothersome. I prefer a smaller, almost a wide belt, hip strap. For large loads on fairly level trails, sure, they DO WORK. Just not in New York state. Even the North Country Trail (aka Finger Lakes Trail in NY) has too many ups and downs.
Anyway,
Anne, the Arc Haul is a good pack. My daughter was interested in one but she bought a house instead. But I thought it was WAY to big. I recommended the Arc Blast at 47L instead.
For me, I prefer a smaller 30L GG Murmur. The GG Kumo, same size, has better durability, though. But, I am getting old so I bring extra, more comfortable stuff. In either case, I swap out the sit pad for a NightLite pad. It gives you MUCH better pack support up to around 30 pounds. And, it works pretty well on snow, too, provided it doesn’t get much below 20F. But, You do have to pack small.
Anne – if you did want to take a look at an Aarn, there’s a US distributor. I’m sure they’d send you one on appro. There are fitting videos on the website which give you a starting point. It’s a question of weight – if you walk in remote places and have to carry a fair bit of food or water, it’s worth a look.
Roger – I wasn’t referring to you when I said people seem rather resistant to new ideas. As you say, you’ve tried it and it didn’t work for you. Though it does sound as though there were sizing problems. I suspect they would be interested if you contacted them for a review sample – the newer designs are much more adaptable fitting-wise, I believe. Though as I metioned, while I’m a fan of the concept I do have reservations about the detailed implementation. I’m looking to combine concepts from Aarn and Seek Outside to deliver 95% of the benefits at under half the weight. I’d be interested in seeing what your inventive mind could make of his concepts – though they are protected by patents and I’m not sure how that would affect the swapping of MYOG ideas.
But I have noticed that many newbies and old-handers alike instinctively reject ideas like minimal footwear, the PacerPoles or the Aarn bodypacks before they have even understood them. There seem to be some rather ingrained assumptions about gear that people rarely question. I think it’s good to raise these less mainstream ideas from time to time so people can make informed choices from the full range of options rather than just accept what the big brands are promoting. That’s why I like the ethos of this site.
Martin – I’d say that’s a very fair summary of the Aarn experience. While I’m obviously a fan, I doubt the idea will ever break into the mainstream because it looks odd and it takes quite a lot of tinkering to get it working for you. I suspect that his customers are mostly gear geeks like me who are looking for more ergonomic ways to enjoy the hills, and people with back and neck problems looking for a way of walking without pain.
Marco – thanks for the link – that is some pretty extreme hiking! I’d agree with you that the Aarn wouldn’t be ideal for that kind of terrain. But it’s hardly typical hiking country…
Leaning forward from the ankles??
I’ve had a lifelong interest in body mechanics and like Martin I’ve done a fair bit of tinkering with my Aarn to compare it to conventional load carrying. If you stick a significant weight on your back it’s going to disturb your center of gravity – that really is a law of physics. And this will disturb your natural gait however you try to compensate. A little practical experimentation is all that’s required to prove this to yourself. Once a load exceeds 12-15 lbs or so, balancing it front-and-back makes a significant difference in my experience, uphill, downhill and on the flat. Cumulated over every step for weeks and months on the trail, this really adds up.
Rule 9
Geoff – American distributors… ah well, must admitted I am of the narrow minded ilk. Those front packs look like they’d drive me crazy – never have liked having stuff over the chest area, but I appreciate what you are saying about ergonomics. Quite central to my profession as a PT. All the more humiliating to have injured myself!
I ordered my big three…. based on a variety of suggestion & leads from this forum and e-mails. Will reveal and review eventually. Along the same lines, do folks have some favorite trekking poles? Didn’t think I would need to upgrade those, but last week’s 10 miler with the old Black Diamonds, a whopping 11 ounces EACH, has got me thinking. Also alot of you seem to prefer esbit and alcohol stoves to cannister stoves. Thoughts?
though they are protected by patents and I’m not sure how that would affect the swapping of MYOG ideas.
Patents cover the commercial use of the patented idea. The whole point of the patent system is to expose the ideas to the public while protecting the commerical use. Patents have zero impact on any MYOG efforts for personal use. You may quote me.
Cheers
Anne – I’m going to go off-base on trekking poles as well.
ALL the conventional poles have a poor handle concept – they don’t work without the use of straps that are inconvenient, uncomfortable and inefficient. As a PT you should be able to see how this design is irrational.
There’s a small company in the UK that has developed a much more ergonomic handle design. I can’t do better than quote legendary hiker and reviewer Chris Townsend:
[Pacer] have molded thermoplastic-rubber grips, acutely angled, that are shaped for each hand. These enable you to transmit far more power through the poles, since the angle is “calculated for optimum range of arm leverage”. The grips are very comfortable, and the poles are a leap forward in design. They are the ones I use most now; they really do give me more power and take more weight off my legs than standard poles, especially on long climbs. They have only a short piece of cord as a security loop rather than a proper strap, which isn’t needed – you hold the poles loosely in your hands rather than letting the loops take the weight.
With the Pacers the power is transmitted directly from the base of the hand to the pole – it’s just a better concept. In the UK they sweep the board in the comparative reviews and are endorsed by many leading lights in the outdoor world. I’ve never liked conventional poles, but I love my Pacerpoles. Not the lightest but much the most effective – once you try them there’s no going back. They offer carbon and aluminium versions.
Oh yes – stoves.
Esbit is light and simple, though you can’t carry them on flights and it’s difficult to resupply on the trail so they’re better for local walking. Just be aware that they are pretty toxic so don’t use them in an enclosed space.
Alcohol stoves are compact, light and reliable, but they do need some knowledge to use safely. You have to be aware of the dangers of spillage, and the flame is invisible so be VERY careful of refilling during a burn – you have to be 100% sure the flame is out.
There are all kinds of alcohol designs out there, and quite a few commercial options. Personally, after a fair bit of experimentation, I’ve settled on a wick based design – you can buy it commercially or it’s easy to make. Reliable, no need for priming, easy to light in wind and cold, pretty fuel efficient, and all the fuel is held in the wick which makes it spill-proof. Quite a few videos on YouTube – this is a very comprehensive overview:
While I’d like to make use of the Pacer Poles, in the interest of multiuse I use my poles as shelter support, and have never been sure to the Pacer Poles would work for that, with their angled grips. I know that Sectionhiker spoke on that topic when he wrote about them, and I’ve been thinking I need to review it. I found that on a long day of hiking with heavy poles, I would get tired of using them, just when I might need them the most.
Fizan poles have worked for me. They are the lightest aluminum poles at 6 ounces apiece that are fully adjustable. The twist locks have been very reliable, and the poles have been sturdy despite the light aluminum. They are sold in the UK, but are not terrible to purchase .
As for stoves, I’ve been very happy with the Starlyte Stove combined with the Trail Designs Caldera Cone. I’m rarely in a hurry for dinner, and set my stove up while I perform minor chores. The Starlyte is tip proof, easy to blow out, and can be preloaded and capped to carry fuel. I fold a piece of heavy-duty foil into the bottom of my pot when packing, and spread it under the stove to reduce the chance of burning the surface underneath. It also provides a lace to set down pot lids and spoons out of the dirt.
http://www.traildesigns.com/stoves/caldera-cone-system
Last weekend I did a hike with some good friends and I was carrying an intentionally somewhat-heavier-than-UL load in order to check some of my winter gear (Duomid, canister stove, extra clothing, etc) and I was also carrying my food as well as my dog’s food, bowl, mat, etc, and 1 liter of water, and I was carrying it all in my Arc Haul, which is also about a half-pound heavier than my Arc Blast. All totaled, it came to 23lb on my back, which is a smidge under 10.5kg.
As you can see from the photo below, this causes zero forward lean for me, and I can’t see the ergonomics being vastly different for other folks carrying similar loads. My conclusion is that for most UL pursuits (mine, anyway) the Aarn pack and related myog versions are a solution in search of a problem. Obviously, the situation might be different for folks carrying a 10-day food supply and/or 6-7 liters of water, where consumables are much heavier than base weight.
Re PacerPoles, I would love to give them a try but am put off by their weight. My plan is to try to find a used or broken pair for sale so that I can scavenge the handles to make my own light version. However, right out of the gate it seems they’re going to be problematic when pitching either my Duplex or my Duomid, especially in the inverted V configuration that I use. But based purely upon the sheer enthusiasm of some PP users, I should give them a fair shot. :^)
Wow! So much information that I wasn’t aware of.
My 2 cents as 60 year old female backpacker who recently upgraded to UL this past year, I have the Oxprey Exos 48 and love it (removed the top pouch – not needed – it also has a flap which closes the top). It works great for lighter loads plus expands nicely for longer trips. I also looked at the arcblast and others, but for the price, just couldn’t justify the additional cost.
Those Fizan poles are on Massdrop all the time fwiw.
Anne, Make your own staff from a panfish pole, a couple bolts and a length of nylon strapping. Weighs in at around 4oz and costs <$10.
From what I’ve seen the Pacers work fine for most tarp-tent setups. Chris Townsend says:
The shaped handles aren’t a problem for pitching tents or shelters either. I’ve used them with a number of different ones and they’ve worked well.
Yes, it’s possible to scavenge the handles if you don’t like the poles themselves. The details are discussed here:
http://www.trek-lite.com/index.php?threads/speed-lock-pacer-poles.727/
But I’m not sure it would be worth it just to reduce the weight, as the aluminiums are pretty strong and reliable. Chris Townsend again:
I’ve given the Best Buy rating to the heaviest poles for good reasons; they perform best and, in use, I can’t tell the difference in weights. I’ve been out with a light pole in one hand and a heavy one in the other and not felt any difference. Weight doesn’t matter as long as the poles are used; only if they’re going to spend time on your pack does weight become important.”
I disagree about the heavier poles. I found that at the end of the day, I was more likely to tuck the poles away or under an arm, because I was tired of the weight. That was back when I was more likely to fall while hiking when tired, so I really needed the poles more when I was tired. Better physical fitness has reduced that danger, so it is not as much of an issue now, but I still appreciate lighter weight poles to reduce fatigue. Not as much difference as lighter shoes, but there is still a physical effort in using the poles.
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