Tarp above the trees (flat vs hex vs ?)

I hadn’t thought about that option since Will’s review came out. That’s a LOT of coverage for around 10 ounces (11.5ish in .74) with much more room than a cuben Duomid at a lower cost ($375 vs $440) with a lower weight and interior room.

The Duomid is easier to pitch (at least in sil) and better in snow or the most extreme  winds (I think).

A great suggestion indeed. It would actually be the most economical as I’d sell off the cirriform and be using my zpacks credit. The weight penalty is only 3 or so oz compared to a hex tarp.. And about the same as a solomid.

Ignoring that, it’d still be by far my most expensive piece of gear, so it’d really need to be a do it all solution. Less storm worthy than a duomid, but much more livable for two when a storm does roll in. Being able to pitch to ground, I wonder how much the design could  handle? Is there a reason it’d be more stable than a hex tarp pitched to ground? (I haven’t read much on the duplex, but many varied reports on the hex tarp wind worthiness)

Is there a reason it’d be more stable than a hex tarp pitched to ground?

Hex tarps like the Zpacks Hexamid and SMD Deschutes can only be pitched tight to the ground on 4 sides. The two sides that make up the doors are cut shorter in height, so that they are significantly elevated above the ground regardless of how low you pitch the tarp.

The Duplex has 8 guyout points. I think that is more than the Hexamid Tarp.

John E,

No doubt a solomid would have been less stressful, but there was a part of me that loved testing the limits of using a flat tarp. Even though I got up at 2 am while it was snowing and had to fiddle with the tarp, I still had fun.

I have a hard time bringing anything other than a flat tarp – I get such a huge enjoyment from finding good campsites and adapting the tarp to fit the site. On the same trip the photos I shared were taken, I tried to set up my tarp and the soil was too hard, there weren’t enough rocks, and it was too windy. I ended up sleeping in an alcove and I couldn’t have been happier.

Flat tarps bring out an odd sense of fun. You have to be ready to adapt.

Flat tarps bring out an odd sense of fun. You have to be ready to adapt.

+1

There is a certain satisfaction in making do with what you’ve got.

I’ve experimented with a number of shelter arrangements (obviously) and of course can select from them based upon seasons/conditions. But I like to think that if restricted to any one of them I would figure out a way to make it work. Maybe involving a bit of crude bushcraft when pressed.

Cheers Matthew and Lester. I believe there is still some gap under the doors when pitched low? At least according to one report i read. Granted its a lot less than the hex. And while tje extra guys are important, it is also in support of more material.

Thanks Dylan. You’re describing the main appeal of a flat tarp for me:) how long do you take to pitch usually? I suspect I’d really only use it in an a-frame or wedge set up. Maybe a lean to on occasion. But it seems these set ups cover most scenarios and are not too complicated to pitch.

Agreed the Duplex in a standard pitch is going to have a small gap under the doors.  At least the Duplex tent does…

I’ve been thinking about how the Duplex Tarp pitches and I think you’d have more flexibility to pitch it longer and flatter or taller and shorter. This flexibility might be nice. I’m also concerned that it might be much more fiddly to pitch which brings me back to the wonders of the Duomid: you just stake it in a rectangle, pop the pole in and then do the eyebrows, if needed. No hassle!

Arizona and the Sierra have tons of difficult, rocky soil. What’s the soil like in NZ? I always get jealous when I see Henry Shires’ Tarptent videos… I rarely camp anywhere I can just lean over and poke a stake into the ground with my hand…

Yeah potentially for varied pitches is a nice perk. Need to  have a really close look at the design.

Yeah duomid is still the shelter I’d he going to if it weren’t for having zpacks credit I think. Duplex is great on space and weight which would be the main thing pulling me toward it if costs were equal. At the weight its a viable one person shelter and amazing weight for 2. Duomid is a bit heavy for one and a squeeze for two.. A solomid and a duo xl might be my limitless funds solution! .

Soil varies of course. Where I live it tends to be quite wet and soft. But I only hike there to get out of the city on weekends. The real stuff requires travel and time off work, but is really where conditions will be more difficult. And I’ve see most kinds of soil in that time!

Mostly I just read these threads, assuming I have not much more of value to contribute.  But I would like to chime in on creativity/versatility in relation to the flat tarps.  The first lightweight tarp we got was an Integral Designs Silwing.  But it is catenary with curved hems so can’t be battened down to the ground to keep cold wind out.  Next, an ID 8 x 10 Siltarp.  Both of these tarps are going on 12 years old and have seen heavy use, in recent years by teenagers, and remain in good condition.  Last month I was taking some Camp Fire families up to Pecos Wilderness for a few days, and brought the 8 x 10 for just myself, so we could also have a dining tarp since it was “monsoon” season.  We didn’t get any rain, but one of our camps was in the forest with a mountainside above.  This spot always gets a lot of katabatic air movement in the evening, and I tried orienting the tarp with the side, staked to the ground, into the expected wind.  It’s hard to get exactly right, though, and there was a lot of air snaking around into one of the open ends.  My new FroggToggs suit didn’t arrive before the trip so I had one of those FroggToggs ponchos with me.  With the hood looped over the trekking pole supporting that end of the tarp, and the sides snapped through the tie-out loops on upwind open end of the tarp, I was able to keep the stiff wind out.  In the morning of course the wind was going the opposite way but then it was easy enough to move the poncho. (We were all lying around that morning with a spate of altitude headaches and it was scheduled as a layover day anyway.)

In years past when we were using that 8 x 10 tarp more often, a similar strategy has worked pretty well with a couple of rain jackets, or one time with an open umbrella.  I expect an extra polycryo groundsheet would work too.

On a hike of the Wonderland Trail, at a high camp, there was a big storm blowing in.  I looked around enviously at the neighboring campers with their freestanding tents all battened down, then set to stringing the 8 x 10 for the two of us.  With 4 trekking poles available and a nearby tree and some line, I was able to fold corners and stake things to close one end entirely, make the other end low enough, and still prop collapsed poles inside to give us sitting and sleeping room.  Still envious of the tent people, until morning after an all-night wind-and-rain storm, I got up and realized we had been warm, dry, and just fine, I had enjoyed figuring out the puzzle of the tarp, and we didn’t need to be carrying 4 lbs of tent anyway.

The OP is of course asking about being above treeline.  We used the 8 x 10 above treeline sometimes, most notably on the JMT.  Yes, harder to keep all the wind out.  But it never fails to surprise me how much warmer just an open tarp is than cowboy camping–I guess it traps just enough body heat under the tarp.

We have since mostly retreated into a Haven 2 because I’ve become so sensitive both to cold and to wind.  But I still miss the openness of the 8 x 10.

: )

I’ve decided to go for a myog tarp I think.

I’m thinking a cat cut, either a 10x7x5 or a 9x7x5 with a beak at the front end. Obviously both of these options are less versatile than a flat 8×10, but from what I can see I think the only pitches I’d use would be a really open lean to type pitch, a low wedge for foul weather and a standard a-frame.

I know the half pyramid and flying diamond pitch with a flat tarp is popular, but I’m not sure what the advantages of such a pitch are?

And in terms of coverage is a 9ft Ridgeline with a beak more sufficient than a 10ft qith no beak? Or should I even be thinking 10ft with beak if I’m considering being above the tree line? I will do some prototyping before messing with cuben, but it’s nice to get other opinions as well.

The half pyramid and flying diamond offer a much more convenient side entry, IMO.

Is your beak going to the ground like on a TrekkerTent Stealth/Yama Cirriform or will it be more open like an MLD Patrol? That will probably influence your choice of ridgeline length.

Assuming your foot end is not closed like a  Patrol/Cirriform, I think you’ll want to pitch the foot end pretty low in a serious storm which will mean very little usable height above the foot of your quilt/bag. You might want to go a little longer than shorter on the ridgeline because of this.

I you’re going for a cat ridge tarp with a beak, the classic design is the MLD Patrol.

Reading reviews, it’s simple and failproof, but tricky for entry/exit and not ideally suited to big winds.

I don’t have personal experience with flat tarps, but I believe that they can be pretty flappy in the wind. In Scotland, where most camping is windy and above the treeline, they are very little used.

If you like the A-frame configuration, an intriguing alternative is the TrekkerTent Stealth 1. Built for Scottish conditions it does OK in high winds if you specify the 40D sil and side panel tie-outs. Compared to the sil Patrol, you have a full beak and 360 coverage with very little weight penalty, though you do add the complexity of zips. Compared to the flat tarp you can undo the rear zip and use it as a ridged cat tarp, or drop it low as a beaked or unbeaked tarp to ride out a hurricane. Footprint will be smaller than a flat tarp in wedge pitch, I think. The website’s a bit of a mess but if you Google around you’ll find reviews. Inexpensive, but wait-times can be very long.

Yeah so a flying diamond/half pyramid basically offer a more livable pitch with a bit more coverage than a lean to. I’ve been content with front entry in my 2p cirriform thus far, so I can probably give up that flexibility in search of a more efficient and weather worthy design.

And yes the patrol is probably the main source I’ll be looking at for inspiration. I’m tossing up how low vs how minimalist to make the beak. Bigger beak = more weight, better protection and perhaps less flexibility (though if I’m basically going to just pitch and a-frame the last point is probably moot).

Is the reason for the patrol not being considered as good in high winds due to the minimalist beak?

Also tossing up whether to have a beak on the foot. More livable pitched low for storms for sure, and perhaps a more efficient use of material/weight. More complex design and less airflow in good conditions.

Storm-readiness is more of an exception to the rule when hiking – like most people I am going to avoid being caught in a storm where possible. So I’m really trying to find the most minimalist compromise that will allow to be stay dry and safe in the case I do get caught out – one of the appeals of a tarp is the open-ness so I don’t want to compromise that too much because of my fears!

Geoff I nearly went with a trekker tent a year or so ago, but with shipping and import fees a cirriform with “cosmetic flaws” (for which gen gave a discount, despite my inability to even find these dlaws) worked out about the same. At the time I was less weight concious and the cirriform seemed a better design + there were a lot of online concerns about trekkertent being very unreliable with fulfilling orders – seems they have sorted it out now however. Big fan of the design and price point too.

If you like the TrekkerTent Stealth concept, maybe take a look at the TarpTent Protrail.

Protrail is nice too, but this is shaping up to be a myog project I think Bob :)

Regarding the foot end, I like the flat triangle of the Patrol for fast pitches. It’s like a mid… you just stake the corners with the fabric relatively taught, insert the foot end pole and then move to the head end. Assuming a relatively modest sized tarp, I don’t think the flat face of the triangle facing the wind is a huge deal.

Please take with a grain of salt: I’ve never pitched a Patrol…

Take a look at Warbonnet’s new hammock tarps.  They have partial doors that essentially form a beak.  I don’t think you are giving up much weight, and you would gain flexibility in pitching.  Something like the zpacks door closer thingy could work with this to minimize stakes.

Please post pics when you make this tarp.

Matthew, under the assumption the relatively small face of the foot end should mean a flat panel isn’t a problem for wind, it’s only function is to cut draft rather than improve stability.  In which case using a pack or draped rain skirt might do the job nearly as well. Hm.

In saying that the back of the cirriform is a slight beak shape. It doesn’t really add any difficulty to set up (I stake it with the same stake as the rear Ridgeline guy), sometimes not bothering if there is no wind and I don’t feel there is need for extra ventilation.

And cheers Bob, that’s actually exactly what I was thinking of doing! I didn’t know about warpbonnet, zpacks was my only reference so it’s good to have another design to check!

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/box-foot-tarp/

Something you might want to ponder.  Can be pitched flat, or in an a-frame w/ a closed foot and just 2 stakes – requires two 30″ tent poles (<2oz) for the closed foot.

I’ve since realized the small triangular flaps at the foot can be replaced by extending the full tarp and pulling the edges together sort of like wrapping paper around a box.

Jonathan – you asked about the weather-worthiness of the Patrol.

Trolling through the few reviews and posts I could find, users were saying that you can ride out storms in it, but only if you pitch the hems to the ground which means very little space as you wait things out, with difficult entry and exit. And it can be vulnerable under the beak, so people tend to block it with a hiking umbrella to reduce splashback unless they’re also using a bivy. The fact that they were carrying umbrellas suggests that they weren’t walking in very windy areas. A couple of users actually mentioned that they only use it below the treeline. It has never really gained much traction compared to the MLD mids, and I suspect there’s a reason. My personal view is that it has a rather narrow field of application.

As with any A-frame the main vulnerability will be the big side panel. I started a huge thread here where we explored all kinds of ways to counter this, drawing on old designs and new ideas. But most of the solutions would be too complex and heavy for use on a 3-season tarp – they were really for 4 season tents. I’ve concluded that the practical solution is simply to provide a good selection of tie-outs on the hem and on the panel. With a good cat ridge, this should keep things from deforming or flapping in most scenarios without a big weight penalty. The Patrol is rather light on tie-outs, which suggests it’s not really designed for big wind.

I’m struggling with the same decision as you – a light MYOG solo tarptent for use in exposed areas.

For open country I’ve got a well-used TrailStar, which is as bomber as you can get for wind, and liveable enough if you’re just using it for sleeping. I like the openness, but the price is that you might have to alter the pitch if a wind swings 180 during the night. The vulnerable angle is much narrower than a square tarp in wedge pitch, and like most Scots I think it’s much more practical than a flat tarp above the treeline. If you want a bomber 3.5 season solution and aren’t worried about footprint, you can’t do much better than the TrailStar. You pay a little in terms of weight, but you gain peace of mind and a quiet sleep in winds that would have most shelters flapping. Chris Townsend, who has been reviewing shelters since the Flood, rates the TrailStar his favourite tarp of all time. It’s a true classic.

But the footprint really is HUGE – literally 4 times the size of a SoloMid. So for areas where pitches are tight or stealth is important I’m planning to build something smaller.

The SoloMid is about as small as you can get – a small rectangular mid is very space efficient and if it’s floorless you can cook inside without much of a vestibule. Obviously you pay a price in liveability and openness, and also flexibility as it’s a fixed shape. But with a bit of tweaking I think it could be a great design for my needs.

The Patrol with its small beak, needs a little more space than the SoloMid, and a fully enclosed A-Frame like the Stealth 1 or Cirriform 1 needs about twice the space.

If I end up building an A-frame I think I’d take the Stealth-1 route – full protection at both ends, but done in a way that offers the option of a number of pitches, from high and open to dropping it really low and enclosed in nasty wind. I think that this would be more generally useful than a Patrol clone.

Personally I’ve short-listed those 2 geometries (rectangular mid or A-frame) – the other alternatives for two poles tend to need larger footprints or offer more liveability at the expense of storm-worthiness. But even within that short-list there’s a lot of scope for design tweaks. The devil’s in the detail.

Interesting Geoff, we seem to be arriving at the same conclusions. I keep coming back to mid designs, myself. In terms of a myog I was put off by the complexity of much more than a flat tarp, but now my thinking seems to be getting more complex for more protection from a flat tarp.. so if I’m committed to a more complex myog project a mid could be on the cards.

It seems a mid fits your needs better, to me – what is the appeal of a closed up a frame? A bit more flexible and potentially less weight? (I haven’t done any sketches or maths to figure this out).

And I love the trailstar design.. unfortunately weight and footprint are an issue for me. Mld do a cuben trailstar, but my understanding is that you lose much of the flexibility of the design. They also do a 15% smaller version called the ministar of you email and ask nicely.

I considered it as a 2p shelter, as I hike with a bit more weight with my partner, but it doesn’t seem so comfortable for two.

Hi Jonathan

Ron isn’t a fan of the cuben TrailStar – he talked me out of getting one. Most people agree that it works better in sil. I can’t see the MiniStar working unless you’re very short – because of the shallow walls you really need the big footprint if you’re going to fit into it. There’s a kind of inevitable logic to the design. If I was to build my own I might experiment with a big roof vent to see if it might reduce condensation (though that would spoil the aesthetics). And change the way the tie-outs are organised so you can cut out draughts in a cold wind. Otherwise it’s pretty much the only way a pentagonal design could work, and you just have to suck up the 510 grams. Is that really so much? You have to consider that anything on the market that’s lighter can’t take the same weather, except perhaps for a hardened SoloMid. And because of the coverage you don’t need a bivy – I just use a 60 gram groundsheet outside of bug season. And you only need 9 pegs.

For a MYOG SoloMid I would again change the way MLD handle the tie-outs – people do say it’s very cold and draughty in the wind. I’d add big vents that could be managed from inside – I know a guy in the UK who has tested vents in small mids and apparently size really matters. I would probably have a door on both sides, for flexibility and cross-venting. I would add ways to create venting and views by lifting the door hems without compromising the stability. And I would consider sleeving the poles in an inverted V to support the long side panels, or at least link them to the panels from the inside with some kind of tie. And finally I would add a lot more tie-outs – I’m happy to trade a few grams in cord and pegs to keep it stable and quiet. If you search for “SoloMid wind” in YouTube you’ll find 3 videos which show what needs to be supported to keep it quieter when it gets blowy.

Hope that some of these late night ramblings are of interest…

Jonathan,

I have both the Yama Mountain Gear SW Cirriform Duo in cuben and the MLD Patrol Shelter Solo in cuben.  They are both fantastic shelters, both extremely well made.  I also have a Solomid XL but find it feels really closed in during inclement weather as does the Cirriform to a somewhat lesser degree.

If a tarp design is the way you decide to go, I would highly recommend the Patrol Shelter concept…but in the Duo size.  It is incredibly light and is an extremely easy shelter to set up.  It is easy to get a perfect pitch every time, much easier than a flat tarp.   The solo size Patrol Shelter is a minimalist shelter and works fine as such in protected areas but I wish I had purchased the Duo.  Both sizes (if battened down) are very stormworthy but the larger size of the Duo, particular in width, makes it much easier to keep dry in a storm without feeling like you’re in a coffin.

The closed end makes a world of difference in protection.  Most of the time you know which way the winds are coming, especially above treeline and having the small end closed allows you to get all the protection you need when positioned into the direction of the prevailing winds.  I agree that the large end beak is not as protective as I would like but in reality, it has never been a problem.  The 8’+ length in combination with the closed small end allows you full protection from the weather, especially with a bivy which I recommend for use at all times with any type of tarp shelter.

Gerry

Great to get input from someone who actually has a Patrol! It’s interesting that you find it a bit tight in its Solo sizing.

What strikes me is that once you move up to the Duo size, you’re in the same ballpark as the Stealth 1 in terms of weight and footprint. The main difference then becomes the beak vs the full coverage zipped porch. The porch gives you better storm coverage and better privacy for minimal extra weight and complexity. And if it’s designed right, it can be left open, partially open or porched out to keep things open in all but the worst weather. If the weather is so bad that you have to lock it down, I’m probably happy to trade off openness for coverage when it’s keeping out driving rain, dust or spindrift. Finally, if you add the zip option to the rear triangle of the Stealth 1 you get the option of pitching it as a high open A-frame, or battening it to the ground in a wedge-like pitch if you encounter a really scary wind. So in return for adding a couple of zips you get something with more coverage, flexibility and privacy.

If openness is a high priority, my idea would be to reduce the taper of the tarp so you could lie with your head at the triangle end and get the view through the front. This would add a touch of weight, but it would be marginal.

I’m more than open to persuasion that I’m being wrong-headed here – the simplicity of the Patrol is very seductive. But right now I’m thinking that the Stealth 1 design has more going for it.

I’m also interested that you recommend a bivy, even in the Duo size. Because of the full coverage, Stealth 1 users don’t find that they need a bivy when using it as a tarp. In the TrailStar I simply use a very light polycro-type groundsheet and optionally a simple floorless, doorless bug net in a very light mesh. I think this would work in the Stealth and the Solomid as well. This arrangement is lighter than most bivy setups, because you don’t need to build in splash protection and worry about durability for the floor and net.

Swings and roundabouts…