Seam sealing eVent mitts

well glad we cleared that up … almost everyone here says you WILL get damp and probably wet …

just a matter of what and how much you get wet

its probably a good thing that the great skurka had a synthetic MLD quilt on his faous alaska trek … since he had 2 rain jackets fail (and no fleece) … thats where he got “stupid light” from

as a note you bring up a VERY good point tipi … is that in poor conditions (especially if you get cold and wet) … make sure you have a good BUFFEr of temperature of your down or even synth bag (or have a good amount of insulating clothes)

oh and bring abit extra fuel and food as the SAR report above i posted shows that you may not able to get out when rivers get swollen …

;)

Hi Mark

A lot of what you are saying is that how the rainwear is designed affects howw well it works, and I agree completely. But then you leap to the conclusion that what matters is how heavy the raingear (fabric) is, and that is a total non-sequitur. You can get just the same bad features in a heavy shell as in a light-weight shell, and you can design a light-weight shell just as well as a heavy shell.

If your shell ‘wet out’, that is a problem with the fabric proofing, not the fabric weight. Fabric which can wet out is just not suitable for those conditions.

I mentioned that we use silnylon ponchos in extreme conditions. The silnylon fabric is UL, but the waterproofing is good to some very high HH – 5,000 mm perhaps. The fabric does not wet out and it does not leak, even under extreme downpours. Using a heavier fabric for this would be pointless. This is design.

On the other hand, I do agree that there is a lot of gear on the market which is designed more for the casual ‘going shopping’ market than for serious use in the mountains. Unfortunately the vendors are not going to tell you the difference, because it is not in their interest to say that a product line is really fashion gear, not mountain gear. This leads to an awful lot of confusion.

I think we are all agreed that keeping sleep gear dry in your pack is what saves lives. Knowing your limits is also essential. Having enough gear and food is essential.
as to rewarming in camp … mark story above where he changed into dry clothes, ate a bunch and went to sleep pretty dry but never warmed up much …
Yeah, that means not enough food and not enough sleep gear.

Cheers

Eric,

There is a VAST difference between getting a bit damp and “guaranteed to get wet”

We are not talking about a light switch on or off here, there are varying amounts of how damp you get, of course some areas of your base layer is going to get damp from sweat, it does in the dry so it is 100% certain to get damp when wearing a shell.

If you vent when you can and slow your pace that sweat can be controlled, it certainly shouldn’t get to the level where you have to wring out your clothing.

The fact that you yourself said “probably wet” seems to indicate you agree that we’re not “guaranteed to get wet”

As i say i think blanket statements and black or white advice is dangerous.

Everytime a thread about cold wet weather comes up you talk about “wringing out” synthetic tops and fleeces, yet you have only mentioned doing this at the end of the day once you’re sheltered.

I don’t see how that helps, do you recommend people then crawl into a down bag with these “wrung out” clothes?

What do you suggest people do if they’re cold and wet say mid day with hours to go till camp?

As i say i think it’s one of those things that seems like a good idea in theory (hey if Navy Seals do it…) but in practice it’s just not workable.

My advice is, if it’s cold and raining hard for a long time, then you need to do absolutely everything you can to keep as dry as possible.

If this means taking a 600g shell with stiff peak, hood adjustments, cuff adjustments etc etc then IMO it’s a better and safer option than saving a few hundred grams (which it doesn’t any way cause wet clothing weighs a LOT more) by taking a lightweight shell that’s just not up to the task

Advising people to not worry about getting wet and wringing out their clothing is fundamentally flawed IMO

With regards to warming up, i did warm up eventually, even managed to get a little sleep during the night, before the tent……………… that’s another story :)

Well mark

are you suggesting that folks who need to stop for hours in the cold rain do so WITHOUT PUTTING ON ANYTHING ELSE?

if you have to stop for a few hours in heavy rain are you telling me you have NO SHELTER ???

sure you might not have trees or overhangs in the UK .. But surely you can set up the outer tarp in a few minutes or so???

if you cant then surely you bring a BOTHY for such conditions …. This was invented in the UK after all !!!

reading from tipis comment about wet base layers in the freezing morning …. Seems folks get MORE than a bit damp …

after all why in the world would you need to change out of yr base layers at the end of the day if its just a bit damp? … And why do folks dread putting them back on in the morning ?

hmmmmmm

again were not saying here to take off yr rain jacket and get soaked doing a rain dance … But that eventually you WILL GET WET … If youre really goood you can manage it

does anyone else here think you can keep all yr layers dry over long periods of rain over a few days?

If so then theres no need for any extra “sleeping  or camp base layers”

;)

Would be helpful if you would state your opinions from your own experiences and what you do rather than ask me

All i seem to be reading is you quoting other people’s ideas and opinions all the while wiggling out of making direct statements or opinions.

I think it’s 100% clear what my opinion is and what i do/would do

So have you have stopped mid hike and wrung out your clothing?

How often do you have to do this during the day?

yes mark …

you only need to wring our the FLEECE … as your body heat when moving PUSHES moisture towards the outer layer …

unless yr fastpacking you need to stop SOMETIME … and when you do for lunch or to boil water … youll do it under a sheltered area (tree, overhang) or make your own (tarp, bothy)

simply take off yr rain jacket, take the fleece off (if you have it on) and WRING it out as hard as possible … and put back on yr fleece and synthetic pooofay and the rain jacket on … until yr ready to move again

honestly ALOT of what yr saying doesnt make sense to me …

for example lets say you can keep dry with a minimal layer going up the hill … however what happens when you need to stop for lunch? … do you not put on a fleece or poofay? … if you dont youll get cold fast … if you do WITHOUT setting up a shelter first then your fleece or poofay will get wet and so will you (as tipi said previously)

now once yr at the top of the hill? … youll expend LESS energy going down, especially on more technical terrain, you might even move more slowly and carefully … if yr not thermal neutral going UP, then youll be pretty COLD coming DOWN … especially as it nears the evening and it gets COLDER .. do you not put something on to mitigate this?

i mean you dont believe townsend or skurka when they say folks will get wet … but will you believe more “normal” folks?

Even though there has been some improvement over the years in high-tech
storm gear (i.e., better breathability and venting), most experienced hikers
find them too hot and not breathable enough for heavy exertion. This is
especially true when it is raining and the outer surfaces “wet out,” further
reducing their breathability. However, these waterproof and breathable
garments can be of great help in gradually drying out damp clothing layers
(damp from perspiration, precipitation or both). If one keeps active around
camp while wearing these shells in the rain, damp clothing layers will often be
mostly dry by bedtime. If clothing layers are really wet, consider taking them
off and wringing them out first before beginning this “wear-dry” process.

Use body heat as the primary tool to dry out damp clothing, especially
before heading to bed; have a buddy help with wringing out wet clothes
before attempting this body drying method.

Religiously practice the principles of layering, adding and subtracting
layers as needed to stay warm even while wet.

http://highcountryexplorations.com/uploads/Cold_and_Wet_Weather_Hiking_in_Depth.pdf

So how to stay reasonably warm and comfortable in these conditions? There are some different methods that work. Also, notice I did not say warm AND dry. I find it is difficult to truly stay dry in these conditions 100% esp after multiple days. In my opinion, being able to be comfortable while moving and then dry once in camp is more achievable goal than being 100% dry. If you are too warm, you will sweat and your layers will get wet and cause you to chill. Better to be a trifle cool and a little damp while hiking in these kind of conditions.

If I am cold while hiking in these conditions (when!), I actually prefer fleece. Yes, this supposedly outdated piece of back country gear actually works well in certain conditions. Cold and rainy conditions in particular. In short, unlike the puffy layers above, fleece is less likely to have its fibers collapse and can still function when pretty wet. Fleece can be wrung out and dries quicker, too.

http://www.pmags.com/cold-and-wet-the-hardest-hiking

;)

Hi Mark

I am sure there are many long-term members of BPL who have got plenty wet during the day. Very wet.

If you vent when you can and slow your pace that sweat can be controlled, it certainly shouldn’t get to the level where you have to wring out your clothing.
That’s a nice idea in theory. At 2,000 m in a storm, you may have no option but to go hell for leather for quite some time. Slowing your pace under those conditions usually means freezing to death.

have you have stopped mid hike and wrung out your clothing?
Yup, in rain in the snow. Didn’t take off the thermal base-layer (I’m not that stupid), but I did wring out the 300-wt fleece. Glad I did too: I warmed up much faster afterwards. Other times I only had a Taslan windshirt on: it was quite wet but I knew it was not worth doing anything about it. The poncho kept me warm enough.

do you recommend people then crawl into a down bag with these “wrung out” clothes?
NEVER! You do not take wet clothing into a SB or quilt. You will be a whole lot warmer wearing nothing at all – although most of us keep a DRY base layer for sleeping in the cold.

What do you suggest people do if they’re cold and wet say mid day with hours to go till camp?
If you are too cold, then you stop where you are and camp. Don’t keep going until hypothermia kills you.
But what about finding a nice campsite and water? Chuckle – one time we simply put several bags and pots out under the edge of the tent and they filled with rainwater fairly quickly. ‘Nice’ was relative: we were out of the storm.

Mark – welcome to BPL for sure, but some of the people you are arguing with have enough experience in extreme conditions to teach SEAL Instructors.

Cheers

They’re kinda heavy compared to rain mittens but I have used closed cell neoprene duck hunting gloves (for retrieving decoys) for cold/wet backpacking conditions. A good decision after not liking “rain mittens” at all.

I seam sealed my GTX OR mitten shells inside in both sides of the seam and in the “center” of the seam between the two pieces of selvedge fabric. Don’t need to be as OCD neat as outside sealing and it works!

Eric says—

for example lets say you can keep dry with a minimal layer going up the hill … however what happens when you need to stop for lunch? … do you not put on a fleece or poofay? … if you dont youll get cold fast … if you do WITHOUT setting up a shelter first then your fleece or poofay will get wet and so will you . . . .

In such conditions I just never stop for lunch.  The weather devil has his pitchfork on my butt and I best not stop.  Roger says it best:  ” . . . go hell for leather for quite some time.”  Dang right.

This Hell for Leather mindset can make for a long tough day of backpacking and eventually results in what I call the Lizard Gaze—Your eyes get focused like a lizard and you enter a very strange state—Moving at all costs, robot mode, sticks and jabs unnoticed—you feel no pain—and you react to everything in your surroundings without thought.  It’s a good place to be but it’s a tough place to get TO.

now once yr at the top of the hill? … youll expend LESS energy going down, especially on more technical terrain, you might even move more slowly and carefully … if yr not thermal neutral going UP, then youll be pretty COLD coming DOWN … especially as it nears the evening and it gets COLDER .. do you not put something on to mitigate this?

I sweat as much or more going downhill especially on very difficult terrain.  Fighting gravity on foot with weight on my back produces a lot of sweat.

Like I said, if it’s really cold on the mountaintop or coming down or into the night, well, then it’s probably too cold to rain and you can adjust your layers for this.

Really, the conversation should be about two things:  Cold Rain or Cold Rain with Wind. Both are radically different.  I can hike on a calm 35F rainy day in my shorts—When I top out on the mountain in a 40mph wind I better be wearing my rain pants. (Along with the torso stuff).

SHELLS are just that:  We become Turtles and need a shell to crawl into as we hike.

In such conditions I just never stop for lunch.
Awful feeling, ennit!

On occasions I have ‘sheltered’ Sue from the wind and rain with my body while she has burrowed very quickly in her pack for biscuits and chocolate. On other occasions I have burrowed under Sue’s poncho into her pack to find same. Then we both ate on the run. Both methods done very fast.

Cheers

never stop for lunch? … for several days in a row????

are you guys barbarians???

if its a gusting AND raining heavily AND cold … with the rain AND wind cooling you off thats quite a bit of cooling … perhaps some folks can be just in their base and shell, but plenty of other folks cant …

as to downhill … i have never expended more energy going down than up the same path unless injured … more time, have sorer knees, been more tired towards the end of the day, etc … yes … but never more energy

On occasions I have ‘sheltered’ Sue from the wind and rain with my body while she has burrowed very quickly in her pack for biscuits and chocolate. On other occasions I have burrowed under Sue’s poncho into her pack to find same. Then we both ate on the run. Both methods done very fast.

i know some folks arent fan of pack brains … and usually im not a fan of outside pockets

but for rain wet conditions ive seen the light …

everytime you open and close your pack and dig for stuff, not only is one exposing the pack to water ingress … but chances are one will need to take off their rain mitts/gloves for the dexterity to do so … and get them wet

with an outside mesh pocket you simply put some waterproof snackies in there … and the tent/tarp outer which you can set up in a few minutes if needed

;)

Hi Eric

i have never expended more energy going down than up the same path unless injured
Eh, I have known conditions where we have needed to exercise MORE care going downhill than uphill. Not often, but try very steep mix of clay and rock under heavy rain.
One time we were descending a rather eroded and grooved steep clay track in rain by straddling the track – the track itself was far too slippery to stand on. I was behind Sue, and I slipped into the groove. I slid, rather fast, down the groove and shot out from between Sue’s legs. Didn’t knock her over, but I did get covered in clay. However, the clay washed off in the next 10-15 minutes. I was told off.

with an outside mesh pocket you simply put some waterproof snackies in there
We do not use outside pockets on our packs in our scrub: they get shredded in a couple of hours. So yes, Sue had to burrow inside the main pack bag. That is why I was sheltering her and her pack with my poncho, and she was sheltering her pack with her poncho as well. Quite thick scrub on a long ridge – no options, no cover. A whole packet of pillow biscuits.
But we don’t bother with rain mitts: we just keep our hands inside the poncho 90% of the time. Faster.

Cheers

roger …

if yr doing a mud glissade your expending LESS energy (and probably less care) =P

i used to think that mesh pockets would be wimpy as well … but the ones on the seek outside packs are pretty solid and beefy

;)

Hi Eric

Yeah, we still laugh about that slide.

The mesh was strong, but the scrub was stronger….

Cheers

That’s a nice idea in theory. At 2,000 m in a storm, you may have no option but to go hell for leather for quite some time. Slowing your pace under those conditions usually means freezing to death.

As i say though Roger this is not a on/off kinda choice, i chose my pace depending on many factors like temp, fitness, feeling etc etc

Imagine you were dry in those situations though, you’d be warmer so wouldn’t need to go hell for leather to stop yourself freezing to death.

I understand your points and how you came by them, IF you assume you are going to get wet enough you need to wring clothing out then of course your entire philosophy will be based around this.

My point is, it’s rare my clothing gets wet enough that it’s possible to wring it out.

In thousands of times being out in heavy rain, often non stop i think there have been a handful of times where my clothing was wet enough that it was possible to wring it out.

Those times either my shell failed or i did something stupid like fall over

Yes i sweat when wearing a shell, yes it causes damp patches in places like my back, but even if you got Hercules himself to wring it out, it wouldn’t be damp enough to see a drip.

Even crazier, i’ve been on multi-day hikes in the pouring rain, hiking over boggy terrain (peak district if you know it) and returned with warm dry feet

I understand both Eric and your philosophies, i’ve even sipped from that koolaid myself, i CAN stay dry in mega heavy sustained downpours though, as do many many other people

Hi Mark

Imagine you were dry in those situations though, you’d be warmer so wouldn’t need to go hell for leather to stop yourself freezing to death.
Chuckle. Hardly relevant, and usually not even true.

The last time was on some high plains (1,600 m) here in early summer, a few months ago. The wind was about 100 kph, the precipitation was a mix of rain, hail, sleet and corn snow, the temperature was just above freezing, there was nowhere to find shelter (high moors, much bigger than in the UK), and I was carrying my summer tunnel tent. Good though it is, I did not want to have to pitch it up there in the open. There was little snow on the ground because the wind was too strong. We went for 6 hours straight, without food.

I cannot imagine being ‘warm’ under those conditions. True, we were not soaking wet, but we were damp and rather cool all over. Very hard to avoid under those conditions. Our UL silnylon ponchos worked fine. As for choosing our pace – our (only) choice was hell for leather. We made it to the small hut we were aiming for and changed into dry clothing. But, and this is a key point, we knew what we were capable of.

IF you assume you are going to get wet enough you need to wring clothing out then of course your entire philosophy will be based around this.
We assume that we may get that wet, and allow for it. It does not bother us (well, not much!). It has worked for us for over 50 years now.

Cheers

I understand both Eric and your philosophies, i’ve even sipped from that koolaid myself, i CAN stay dry in mega heavy sustained downpours though, as do many many other people

Sorry, I’m not drinking that kool-aid…

The simple fact is that even if wearing a mythical shell that is both waterproof and has 1:1 vapor permeability you still have to face the very real physical challenge of ‘pushing’ perspiration (creating enough internal heat to vaporize it so that it passes through the membrane) from one extremely high humidity environment into another.

When there is zero humidity differential this isn’t going to happen and nothing is going to change the physics of this scenario.

Eric—

never stop for lunch? … for several days in a row????

are you guys barbarians???

Lunch is overrated.  Remember, there’s always breakfast before shove off.  And there’s food in your shorts pocket—energy bars, raisin, nuts, whatever.  Eat as you move.  And then there’s cooked dinner in camp at the end of the day.  Put the lizard back in his cage—you’re in camp.  You won’t starve.

Several days in a row?  Often poor conditions don’t last several days in a row.  On the other hand, in winter rainstorms there are often lull windows whereby you can pack and move for 2 or 3 hours before the next nasty round of crap begins again.

Roger’s “six hours straight” is a common situation for many winter backpackers.  The “hell for leather” scenario is common in some military training, as is the consequent lizard state—green berets call it the Drone Zone.

On some challenging trips I have an inner drill sergeant which shouts in my ear—“Shut up and keep moving!! Don’t think!  Set up camp here and don’t get emotional!!!”  He’s been with me since I started backpacking.

The inevitable evolution of this thread (and way beyond mere shell mittens) is to discuss cold wet rain mishaps, rescues and deaths.  David Decareaux and his two sons in the Ozarks comes to mind—

http://www.waynecojournalbanner.com/reynolds_county/news/article_47d97b6a-7efa-11e2-aa16-001a4bcf6878.html

We have a weather phenom here in the mountains of NC and TN (and Georgia/Virginia) which I have come to call the Decareaux Cycle—(after studying his plight)—
** Stage 1 is 50F-60F in January/February or whenever with nice weather. It lures out hikers.
** Stage 2 is a cold rain at between 35F and 45F—a storm system that usually lasts at least a day or night. (Sometimes it lasts much longer).
** Stage 3 is when the rain ends and the temps drop drastically into the 20Fs or teens under crystal clear skies.
** Stage 4 is when the cold air dissipates and temps return to 50Fs and 60Fs back to Stage 1.

This cycle is possibly only relevant to the Southeast mountains and only occurs during the Fall, Winter and Spring months—October to April. For unprepared hikers or backpackers it’s a one-two punch of cold soaked clothing followed by frozen clothing and hypothermia and sometimes death.

Sorry, I’m not drinking that kool-aid…

The simple fact is that even if wearing a mythical shell that is both waterproof and has 1:1 vapor permeability you still have to face the very real physical challenge of ‘pushing’ perspiration (creating enough internal heat to vaporize it so that it passes through the membrane) from one extremely high humidity environment into another.

When there is zero humidity differential this isn’t going to happen and nothing is going to change the physics of this scenario.

I do not know enough about the technical aspects of clothing, to be honest Bob i don’t care as it doesn’t interest me in the slightest.

I try clothing either it works for purpose or not.

I do know that i can go out in my Montane Further Faster jacket and spend all day hiking in the pouring rain in a temp of 10c or lower, and although my layers will be damp from sweat if you were to wring them out i can guarantee you wouldn’t see a drop of water from them.

I did a 2 hour run earlier in the week with a Montane 777 smock in the pouring rain, although my base layer (Nike dri something) was damp at my back (running vest) again there is no way you’d have a single drop if you wrung it out, in fact with the seat heaters on during the 15min drive home it was pretty much dried out.

Really finding it tough to understand why a few folks struggle to believe that you CAN stay dry hiking in the rain, if you walked in the UK and got wet every hike they hills would be empty.

Of course that’s not to say you can zip up your shell and run up a mountain without having sweat start to cause a problem.

You can with some common sense manage the sweat though, if you’re walking up a steep hill your front is often sheltered from the wind and rain, so unzip.

If you’re warm enough, rolling your sleeves up makes a massive difference

Pit zips, again massive difference

Personally i try to have as few layers on as possible, my aim is to try and be as cold as i can when moving.

For stopping the rain getting in (as opposed to sweating yourself wet) adjusting the hood correctly makes a massive massive difference, as does having a stiffed peak, adjustable wrist cuffs is essential if you’re using hiking poles, i’ve found that even the cut of the jacket makes a difference, i always try to size up so that the jacket is a little too big for me

Again i’ll say that my clothing does get damp from sweat, no ifs buts or maybe, my point is it’s not wet enough to wring out, with my Nike dri-something if the is a dry spell between showers it will dry within 20 mins, so it’s only very slightly damp

Mark,

Your claim “i CAN stay dry in mega heavy sustained downpours” is what I took issue with.

Dry is very different from very damp, and you have used that word so frequently that people think you’re literally staying dry. You have started to hedge a bit by qualifying it to say your layers are not so damp that you can wring them out. But that is a far cry from dry, and by that standard I myself have been “wet” only once or twice in the last 30 years.

All the other stuff is well known.

Mark—

Personally i try to have as few layers on as possible, my aim is to try and be as cold as i can when moving.

Exactly.  Save comfort and real warmth for camp.  Keep warmth layers dry at all costs.  But I never try to be “as cold as I can when moving.”  If so I’d hike naked.  There has to be some heat retention and a balance between sweat and chill.  Ergo–minimal layers under a rain shell.

There are advantages to hiking “chilled”—baselayers stay drier and sweat is better managed.  I just can’t stop for 30 minutes and eat lunch.

I see this newbie mistake all the time—Leaving camp in too many layers and not having the discipline to stop and de-layer.  Or having too many blasted layers to soak up their sweat. . . . and the rain.  It’s common to see guys out in the winter with long johns and rain pants and gaiters and fleece midlayers under rain shells and mittens and a balaclava and fleece hat over it—as if it’s -10F and they’re pulling a winter ascent of Denali.  Twenty steps from the car and their baselayers are soaked with sweat.

There’s also a fine line between backpacking chilled and beginning the first stage of hypothermia.  Dayhikers have this problem all the time—except they generally have minimal gear and can’t camp where they stand.  Emergency overnights for a dayhiker become problematic.

The Camp Where You Stand policy may be a last resort but it’s a good way to hunker in after the initial down spiral of hypothermia.  Even expert backpackers push the envelope sometimes and need to set up fast and hunker in.  It all depends on what Miss Nature has planned for the day.

tipi …

in that rescue you linked to … i remember that one, it was discussed years ago

the dad did not bring ANY rain gear or even a tarp i believe … or even “proper” (non cotton” clothing …

if he were in BC he might well have suffered the same fate …

folks go hypothermic here all the time (if they dont get rescued) … the difference is we have top notch rescue teams (3 of our teams are some of the busiest in canada) …

and if you do die out here …. your body might not be found for years … if ever …

i can provide the links to the articles on those … but that seems a big macabre …

as to layers …

NO ONE is saying to put on so many layers that you sweat it out…

HOWEVER theres plenty of folks i know who simply get too chilled (to the point of shaking) in the freezing rain withut a fleece under there rain shell …

and WHEN you get wet … that makes it even worse, youll cool down faster …

of course for folks who stay dry all the time and dont get wet (or just get slightly damp) … WHY do you even need to change out of yr baselayers into dry ones at night … since all your layers are pretty dry

;)

I often “eat my way down the trail” with food carried in my front zippered pouch. MNo lunch stop BUT I do eat. (The Russians eat to live while the French live to eat.” ;o) vive la difference!

And, again, for rain in shoulder seasons I use closed cell neoprene gloves, not light BWP “rain mittens”. Otherwise in summer my hands just get wet. No big deal.

Hi Eric

More details about your closed cell neoprene gloves would be of interest, and within the general theme of this thread. Brands, pics, details …

Cheers

I don’t really have any hard far rules for stops in bad weather, if i’m tired and would like a break and find a sheltered spot then i will stop

It’s rare there are any sheltered spots in the areas i hike though

I’ve tried taking a tarp but without a sheltered spot putting it up in bad weather particularly strong winds is an absolute nightmare, it often took longer to set up than the time i’d take to rest.

Tried one of those emergency shelters, they’re not too bad if there are 2 of you as you sit either end and your body provides support, again though i just found i couldn’t be bothered messing about with it.

So i’d usually chew on breakfast bars, or i’ll have a bag of mixed nuts and fruit i’ll cram into my mouth throughout the day

Now days unless i get caught out i just don’t bother going out if the weather report is very bad, i have zero interest in camping below freezing, so unless it’s a trip i’m booked on for specific dates or i’m caught out i’ll just not bother hiking or hike out and spend the night in a hotel or pub.

When i was younger (i’m 48 now) i’d take some enjoyment out of pushing myself and challenging myself in bad weather, i’ve gone through that phase now though, i’ve pushed myself and know my limits so hiking is 100% for me to chill out, relax and destress.

No distances goals, no time to be at any specific place at, no elevation goals, it’s rare i’ll even pick a route beforehand now days, usually i’ll just hike in a rough direction, if i see something that i find interesting i’ll head off in that direction, if i’m tired i’ll keep my eyes out for a suitable camp spot and pitch, if that’s 15:00 then so be it.

Not saying that’ll work for you guys in the states, with the crazy restrictions you face on permits, where to camp etc, but i can’t imagine a scenario where i’d ever do a pre written pre planned route like the PCT.

If folks leave their ego’s at home and just do things cause they enjoy it it’s surprising how much more relaxing hiking is, once you’ve hit that spot then slowing down, stopping every few mins to catch your breath makes a MASSIVE difference to how much you sweat

I’ve been hiking with folks that were wet through with sweat, yet won’t stop for the 2 mins it needs to remove their midlayer, they just get into a head down forced march routine

I’m astonished that people are struggling to see the difference between slightly damp and wringing wet, that there is a chance of getting wet to being guaranteed to get wet.

Seems common these days for people to swing opinions to the extreme before they can make their point, hopefully these folks don’t have that way of thinking in real life, can you imagine trying ask your partner at what temperature the bathwater should be for a baby :o
Well it’s not hot, but it’s not cold :p

Subtleties are there in life and language for a reason, thank goodness