Reassessing my rain gear solutions

Part of the formula to being comfortable in the rain is to regulate your output to match gear and conditions. If you’re a soupy mess, then it’s because you’re working too hard for the gear that you are wearing. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you already know that you can always out-work any MVTR that resembles “waterproof”.

Old Army jackets made of Ventile were awesome: tough as nails, rain resistant, and always comfortable as long as you kept your temperature within reason. I never weighed one, but they were at least a couple of pounds.

60/40 parkas were great, too, and weighed less than Ventile (but are still heavy compared to even Gore-Tex).

No modern rain gear is as comfortable as those old cotton-based fabrics. Hilltrek (Scotland) makes modern tech garments from modern incarnations of Ventile. They look nice… for bushwhacking. They still weigh a couple of pounds.

I mention the heavy stuff because it works better than membranes, especially when you’re working hard. But it isn’t magic… you can still out-hike it.

Does the 3FUL poncho have elastic cuffs? That’s a design flaw: rain gear is best with loose sleeves that promote airflow. Cuffs should have cinch cords with single-pull “cyberian” cord locks (rather than Velcro that eats Alpha Direct). Also big pit zips (or just open sides like a regular poncho) allow you to extend your arms through the sides for additional cooling when you’re not facing cold rain. These are two of the things that make the Packa stand out from other ponchos.

You could cut the elastic on your cuffs and replace with a KamSnap. If the sleeves are blousy enough then that might be sufficient. Otherwise, you may have to make cuts in the sleeves to get enough ventilation. Or just use your regular poncho, and the world thanks you for your report!

I’m trying a few new things this year. At Bills suggestion, I have a Packa coming in the mail tomorrow.

I had a 32″ x 92″ scrap of AD 90. Plans of making a hoodie, I cut a piece for a neck gaiter. I also got a scarf out of it. Then I cut a slice in the center and now it’s a poncho liner. I did sew around the neck. As suggested in another thread, I didn’t hem it. Neither did I hem the scarf. I haven’t been convinced that it needs it. It’s held up.

Long story longer. It’s very warm. Very breathable. Very nice under a poncho. My arms can be tucked in to warm up.

I’d recommend trying the Rockfront Rain Hoody.

https://rockfront.eu/product/rain-hoody/

My PNW rain kit is 3L jacket, pants(Torrentshell), a few pairs of liner gloves, 2 pairs of WP over shell mitts. Throw in Sealskinz socks depending on if there is/will be snow or slow and how low the temps get. I can hike all day in constant downpour with this and be comfortable. I have silnylon rain jacket/pants for summer/fair weather areas.

Thanks all.

My 3ful is packa like and much less expensive, but still sweaty for me.  It lacks the packas pit zips, something I want to add and probably would make all the difference.  As Bill mentioned, packa also has better less restrictive wrist cuffs.  That’s an easy fix though not so important when wearing rain over mitts

I’ve looked at the rock front before and it’s a nice alternative to a silpoly jacket but the lack of front zip is an issue for heat management for me and online reviews have backed that up, and it lacks the airflow of something like the packa or 3 ful

I also have a 2.5l wpb jacket with zips but also too sweaty for me

What are the lightest waterproof zippers to make pit zips with?  I want to try that on my 3ful before considering a 15d silnylon packa (the others are heavy).

I have never used waterproof zippers.  For normal wet conditions I have found it doesn’t matter.

My cuffs use velcro, fold over the cuff to connect the velcro to close the gap.  Which I usually leave open.

Sometimes I get wet inside my rain jacket because I’m wearing too much.  Then I over heat and sweat which overwhelms any rain jacket.  Just a base layer and the jacket is as good as it gets.  If that’s too much insulation then plan B – take off the jacket because you’re going to get wet regardless.  Have a base layer that’s light so it will dry off quickly.

I’ll wear just my brynje under the poncho, best way of getting sweat off me.

Problem is the brynje is also my sleep top.  So I dry it by wearing it to bed.  Not ideal.

Sometimes I’ll keep the hiking shirt on under the poncho, let it get soaked so I can go to bed in a dry base layer, then wear the shirt wet in the morning and dry it on me.

I store the shirt in a near weightless produce bag in my tent so it doesn’t load the tent with condensation overnight

I store the shirt in a near weightless produce bag in my tent so it doesn’t load the tent with condensation overnight
That is important.

Cheers

While your sweat is moving away from your body, it’s rebounding off of your poncho. It has nowhere to go. Your tight Brynje is acting like a two way street, stopped only by you hiking shirt. The same bellows affect like that of a loose sun shirt, can help pump it out. Or so I say. I’m finding a liner much more comfortable than a shirt. Actually just as warm, if not warmer when folded in. Without cuffs and extra trim, it’s lighter than my tops and dries faster. As far as movement, it moves with the poncho. It’s somewhat like wearing a double wall tent.

@Bill Buney The 3FUL poncho/coat does have elastic cuffs which is nice while using poles, but I feel the heat build up most around the chest and neck. Of course, they came out with a zippered version right after I’d gotten mine with only a small gusset around the neck. Unless I know it’s going to rain a lot, I’m back to the GW cape.

I’ve looked at the rock front before and it’s a nice alternative to a silpoly jacket but the lack of front zip is an issue for heat management for me and online reviews have backed that up, and it lacks the airflow of something like the packa or 3 ful

The Rock Front is a bit different than the Packa or 3Ful. Yes the jacket lacks a single full length front zip – instead it has one 11″ front zip (size M). But more importantly what it does have in lieu of a full length front zip is TWO 26″ side zips that open from the hem all the way to the elbow. That’s 63″ of zippered venting, not to mention the adjustable cuffs.

I’d rather have the two side vents and 1/2 zip front than one single front zip… a hipbelt can go between the side zips allowing great air movement – something that is lost when wrapping a hipbelt over the top of a garment.

While your sweat is moving away from your body, it’s rebounding off of your poncho

With my S2S poncho tarp, air escapes through the generous side openings.  The Brynje under the S2S poncho tarp is a good combination.  Dry, warm, and condensation on the inside of the ultrasil material is kept mostly off my skin

With the sleeved 3FUL poncho, my sweaty air gets trapped even with the front zip open.   There’s nowhere for the air to “flow” through.

In the same conditions I may have next to no sweat build up in the S2S poncho tarp but in the sleeved 3FUL I’m drenched in sweat even with the front zip open.  The bellows effect of the garment over the backpack isn’t enough on it own to move air well even with the front zip open.  That really surprised me.

I tried the 3FUL with my sun shirt under, open and acting as a bellows.  But it got completely drenched in sweat.

When its not raining, the Brynje under my sun shirt with front open and acting as a bellows is my go to top combination under 10C, keeps me warm and dryish

So its back to either adding generous pit zips to the 3FUL and hope that gives it air flow like the packa (or getting a packa), and/or upping my hand warmth game with thicker liners under my waterproof rain mitts (decathlon) with the S2S

Neither of these are good solutions for trails with heavy and tall blowdown, but then that’s where the WPB 2.5L jacket with pit zips comes in, with the Brynje underneath.

I’d rather have the two side vents and 1/2 zip front than one single front zip… a hipbelt can go between the side zips allowing great air movement – something that is lost when wrapping a hipbelt over the top of a garment.

I tried to buy a Rock Front when first released but they were sold out.  While waiting for restock, I read a few reviews calling it sweaty so have been holding off.  But they were wearing it with the hip belt over the front like here.

Good idea about the hip belt under the front.  That’s possibly a game changer.

The S2S poncho tarp will still have much better air flow, so I’ll still try to get my hands warmer with it.  I forgot I own fleece wristies and those would help in light rain.   And add pit zips to the sweaty 3FUL since I already own it.

Thanks for the hip belt idea.  If the other options flame out, I’ll reconsider the Rock Front.

I got possum down glove liners last year. They ran a little big. I got another smaller fingerless pair to go under them. It still gives me good dexterity. I think it’ll work.

In conversation with Bill, he mentioned a “T” shaped poncho. That idea could be expanded.

I can’t say on the Packa, except I trust the reviews here.  I’ve read other good reviews. Bills review helps a lot. Google says the pit zips are 16″. A good size. I have concerns about the 15D, but as you say, the others are a bit heavy.

I would consider not using a zipper on your 3F and just opening up the pitts. Perhaps sewing a piece of mesh instead.

The 3FUL and S2S are both 15D and no problems yet with durability.  I’ve been wearing the S2S a few years now.  I think you’ll be OK there with the 15D packa.

A problem with the packa looks like you can’t take the pack off without taking off the rain jacket.

When filtering water with the 3FUL, I pull one arm inside the sleeve, take that side’s backpack strap off and then rotate my pack around my torso and then I can get at my water filter and side water bottles while still covered by the rain jacket.

Can’t see how that could work in the packa.

Yes, you definitely should not get a Packa. You won’t like something about it. ;)

However, taking off the pack works the same way as you describe, unless you cinch it around your pack (like a pack cover).

Personally, I would add sleeves to your S2S poncho first, though. Box shaped, open cuffs, much larger than your arms to pump air through the sleeves. I would not even close the bottoms: just leave them open, as an extension of the shape of the ponch. Use tape to attach to your poncho while prototyping. You can always sew or glue later.

(Gaffer tape is made to come off cleanly.)

The final shape will be like a “T”.

Yes, you definitely should not get a Packa. You won’t like something about it. ;)

Personally, I would add sleeves to your S2S poncho first

Thanks for the suggestion but I found a better idea ;)

The solution’s been staring me in the face.  I’ll often wear wristies snow shoeing.   Extremely breathable and they keep my hands warm and stay in place using poles.  Worn up the forearm, coverage is perfect with a poncho:

A pair weigh 32g

I’ll find a cheap donor wind shirt with DWR off amazon, cut off the sleeves and just sew tack them on, using the wristies as the liner.  Maybe the Frogg Toggs UL2 as a donor, opening up the cuffs.  Can even get a decent colour match.  Its not the most breathable option but the open cuffs and open upper sleeve may make it acceptable

This provides all the sweat management benefits of the poncho (which are substantial) and should be more than fine keeping my hands warm (with gloves/rain mitts) while coming in less than 2 oz a set.

I think I found my unicorn!

Still considering the Rock Front to replace the 2.5L jacket for use with blow down and bushwacking intense routes

Wristies: Nice.

Wearing your pack over the poncho will contain it quite a bit. Is that enough for some of your bushwhacking?

This year, if you live in northern Colorado, where it no longer rains, you can easily stay dry. I found myself in Santa Fe  where they received record rainfall about a week ago.  I hiked in the rain on one of those days. The temperature was in the mid-50s.  Too warm for the 1,800 feet up to the top of the mountain I was hiking.  I let myself get wet. At the top, I removed my sodden Jollygear shirt. I replaced it with a 60 gsm Alpha Direct shirt.  I replaced my wet hiking pants with Versalite rain pants.  I wore a North Face Papsura over the Alpha Direct.  I had very long pit zips installed in the Papsura.  The Papsura has an MVTR of 4014, the highest I have found so far. I did the descent with the pit zips open.  When I arrived at the car a couple of hours later, the Alpha Direct was dry.  My head was not because I kept wearing the same hat for the entire trip.   The Papsura interior was dry, except at the sleeve cuffs and hood.  I had a comfortable descent.  We finally have rain coming in (hopefully) on Wednesday, so I will try some variation on this approach again.

in the S2S poncho tarp but in the sleeved 3FUL I’m drenched in sweat even with the front zip open.
Doesn’t that suggest you are wearing too much clothing?

Mind you, expecting to stay dry in heavy rain is thishful winking. Long experience should tell you that you WILL get wet. Accept that and move on.

Cheers

I was wearing very little clothing under.  I’ve watched guys come off snowshoe trails bare backed at -5c covered in sweat.

In my poncho, I stay much drier.  Old dogs can learn new tricks

My initial impression of the Packa was very positive. I was between a medium and a large and went with the large. A medium would probably feel more like a jacket, while the large is more comparible to a poncho.

Using it with my Kuiu frame using a bear can on the bottom , it was a tight fit to get the pack into the pod. Once in the pod, it was a good fit.. It sort of snapped into place which was a learned process, then I had to “unsnap” it to get it off.

Admittedly not a fair test. The website specifies using it with an internal frame. If I pack my bearcan differently, I think it will work better. It should fit my other packs.

The quality appears spot on. The 15D seems fairly robust. I can reach through the pit zips , like they were pockets.

More clammy than a poncho, using my AD liner helped. Not terrible. Another unfair test in 76*f weather with no rain.

Will it ever rain again? Do I have to go to Santa Fe? It is a very nice area. It has the best Mexican food in Colorado, even if it’s in New Mexico.🤔

More clammy than a poncho, using my AD liner helped

Thanks, nice to finally get a real world comparison on heat management.

No surprise really

No surprise really

As such, I’m not disappointed, though it’s hard to beat the breathability of a poncho when left loose.

It’s hard to totally define the cause of the clamminess in warm weather. I think it boils back mainly to the sleeves. I think Packa came up with a very good solution, though it may not be enough to serve your needs.

Realizing with the Packa’s large pit zips, I can flap my arms a little or a lot minimizing any clamminess.