- Mar 20, 2019 at 6:45 am #3584597
(next time it’ s really windy, lay down flat on the ground and see what happens)
You get a face full of spindrift … :)
CheersMar 20, 2019 at 11:40 am #3584608David PMember
hey drew, unfortunately I don’t have any videos of those conditions. It was definitely intense inside the tent and the raw power of the storm kept me up most of the night. Also I periodically would “whap” the walls to keep snow from accumulating on them. I agree with Po, it is a Big target for sure and it certainly wasn’t a “fun” night! The packed snow around the edges kept flapping to a minimum but I experienced the “violent jerky deflection” that Po describes. Fortunately I haven’t noticed any stretching to the DCF as of yet, and the 2.7mm guylines I use seem to hold pretty well, I could see the thinner Zpacks guys slipping though if they were attached to the corner or mid panel Linelocs, the forces exerted on them is truly great.
If you YouTube “Duomid high winds” there is some good clips of severe winds. To be honest I was not as exposed as the Duomids in these vids. I intentionally setup lower elevation with some trees and a snow berm windward side.
?Po, what type of shelter do use now?
?drew, what kind of shelter do use, the one in your icon picture? I can’t tell which that is :)
?roger, are you in Europe? I imagine you experience pretty consistently strong winds over there off the pond :) Which shelter(s) do you prefer?Mar 20, 2019 at 3:31 pm #3584641Dan DurstonMember
“I owned a DCF Supermid….it’s a big target, and the DCF has no stretch. I found that when the wind started to overwhelm the tent things got ugly. Violent and very jerky deflection, extreme strain put on the anchors. If the stakes do hold the force was great enough to often slip the guy line in the line locs. After a few wind storms like that and some snow loading I found that the DCF did stretch visibly in the areas around the corner tie outs where all the force was being applied. Once DCF stretches it doesn’t unstretch like sil nylon, it doesn’t ruin the shelter but it’s an observation.”
Nice to read an account of DCF in extreme conditions where the user has paid critical attention to performance. You’re right on with the jerky deflection, concentrated stress and non-rebounding stretch.
Many older DCF shelters end up warped from the non-rebounding stretch and end up pitching wonky. This is mechanical stretch (in the weave) rather than stretch in the dyneema fibers, so it occurs mostly on a diagonal to the dyneema strands. It’s actually not that hard to cause – if you take some new DCF and pull on a diagonal to it, you can see it stretch under pretty mild forces.
Ideally a shelter would have the major lines of tension parallel to the strands rather than diagonal to avoid this. The Dirigo doesn’t do that, but most DCF tents don’t because there are other factors in this decision too, like not creating a bunch of extra seams. I can’t fault them here because it’s really hard to do. This doesn’t directly cause failures in the DCF, but it seems likely to contribute to the eventual delamination and pinholes that eventually cause the demise of a DCF shelter.
A better solution is to use high bias DCF which has the same amount of dyneema strands but at 4 orientations instead of 2 so there are strands on the diagonals (0, 90 +45, -45 degrees). But for some reason this has never caught on – seemingly because it’s rare for people to really critically evaluate how well the fabric is holding up so when this material was available no one used it. I don’t know if you can still get it, but it weighs the same and fixes this problem.Mar 20, 2019 at 8:35 pm #3584684
?roger, are you in Europe? I imagine you experience pretty consistently strong winds over there off the pond :) Which shelter(s) do you prefer?
No, we live in Australia.
But … our Alpine region gets some of the most atrocious storms you can imagine, partly due to a funnel geography aimed right at the middle of the region. We can go from blue sky with sun to howling storm in mid-summer in a few hours. Makes for a fun time. A classic one of our trips is at:
I should point out that most 3-season walking in the USA does not have to handle anything like our conditions.
Also, we often spend two months in Europe walking the mountains there during the Euro summer period. That Alpine region can also get some ‘interesting’ weather. Some reviews from those trips are here:
As for preferred shelter – chuckle. Others will tell you I only use full-on tunnel tents, and that I make my own, and that I am slightly biased about tunnels. You can find some of my thoughts about tents here:
Plus probably thousands of comments in various Forum threads :)
CheersMar 21, 2019 at 11:41 pm #3584948Ken LarsonMember
@kenlarsonLocale: Western Michigan
Just received as a email from Hyperlite ….Mar 22, 2019 at 12:55 am #3584970Monte MastersonMember
@septimiusLocale: Changes Often
Thanks for the link Ken. I more I look at the Dirigo 2 the more I like it. Maybe there’s a little too much concern by many posters about condensation. Yes the floor is sewn directly to the sides, but the 2 large full-net entries should make it manageable. And the Dirigo is DCF by the way, A bit of moisture shouldn’t be a big deal. As far as rain getting in as you enter and exit? That’s acceptable to me if I can have a tent that’s superb in strong winds. I’d be willing to sacrifice some space too. I saw the tent as a 1+ person right from the beginning.
I do wish HMG would also offer the Dirigo in the spruce green however (same as their tarps)..
Price shouldn’t be a deterrent. The only expensive gear is the gear you don’t use. I am a little surprised that the tent wasn’t better received here on BPL though. If it would have been unveiled by some of the of the other gear makers , fan boys would have immediately went on about how the Dirigo 2 is an absolute work of genius… an innovative work of art.Mar 22, 2019 at 3:05 am #3584995
If it would have been unveiled by some of the of the other gear makers , fan boys would have immediately went on about how the Dirigo 2 is an absolute work of genius
I have my doubts. Too many hard heads.
CheersMar 23, 2019 at 4:11 pm #3585166MarkMember
you were talking about the bottom vents ?
Well those are indeed there tho create air flow, however you can close them as the description under the photo you posted (from the TT product page) clearly states.
For clarification Franco, i have the same concerns as you expressed in this post
just an observation…
Given that the tent is designed for extreme conditions and wind has been mention, I don’t think that those concave ends help in the respect.
Sails are designed to obtain that shape to collect wind not to shed it.
I accept the panels in the MYOG tent are a LOT bigger than the TT DCF vents, but the fact that the TT vents they use on their DCF tent are recessed, have no support except velcro (notoriously temperamental when wet) and are made from 0.5oz DCF, it cause my concern enough not to make a purchase.
This is not a criticism from me, even if I found it to be 100% THE perfect tent for me, other potential buyers would not like some features I like.
It’s just me trying to put my idea of features i like/don’t like in the hope that someone eventually produces my perfect tent for me to buyMar 23, 2019 at 5:43 pm #3585183Bill in RoswellMember
@roadscrape88Locale: Roswell, GA, USA
In regards to DCF and shock force from wind gusts, would adding a short loop of 1/8″ shock cord between cord and stake or looped into the cord, allow for some shock absorption to reduce the force going to the tent body? Perhaps Dan or Roger would know.
Bill in Roswell, GAMar 23, 2019 at 7:03 pm #3585186MarkMember
In my experience Bill, you want the fabric as tight as you can get it, any sag or deflection when the wind blows and it dramatically increases the load, as the panel acts like a sail
Obviously tent design, shape and the force and types of wind make a difference, with flat type panels in 50mph+ winds i found a tight aerodynamic pitch deflects the majority of the wind force
I tried a tried adding 12″ section of shock cord on the big panel of my Duplex, when the wind hit the side panel, the shock cord caused it to deflect inwards
I tried plan B, added a section of cordage in parallel to the shock cord so once the shock cord stretched this cordage took the strain, again the same resultMar 23, 2019 at 7:18 pm #3585187William ChiltonMember
I wonder how much difference silnylon’s elasticity makes in real world use. The DCF/cuben tents that I’ve had (various Hexamids and a Duplex) have all deformed in gusts to some extent and in doing so seem to dissipate some of the shock force. Other designs may have a pole structure allows them to deform less, but I suspect they’re designs not being made in DCF/cuben.Mar 23, 2019 at 7:46 pm #3585190Hanz BMember
I always thought that was the benefit of the duplex flex design was that is does give in high winds and flexs’ to reduce sheering stress on panels and potential failures. others with more experience feel that a tight hold is meter to hold off the cupping in wind. Interesting.Mar 23, 2019 at 7:52 pm #3585192JacobMember
From the HMG blog post:
“When it comes to rain, The Dirigo 2 will laugh in its face neither letting it through nor absorbing it. In the event you’re standing in a downpour when you reach your destination, you can climb into dry living quarters as it’s not necessary to fully unzip the entrances of the tent to insert the poles to pitch it. And with the angle of the outer walls, it’s easy to vent by unzipping from the bottom just enough to keep air flowing in and out without rain dropping straight down into the bathtub floor (if wind is in the mix too, unzip the side of the tent that rain isn’t hitting).
When temperatures start to fluctuate or the environment is ripe for sometimes unavoidable condensation, the hydrophobic properties of Dyneema<sup>® </sup>Composite Fabrics will keep the shelter from absorbing water, sagging, or causing large amounts of interior pooling. With good campsite selection and air flow management, occupants of the Dirigo 2 can look forward to a moisture-free retreat.”
So apparently you can open the doors enough for entry/egress without exposing the bathtub floor to the sky. If I’m reading the blog correctly, the ventilation created by partially opening the doors is the only feature included in the design to mitigate condensation.
The ‘roof’ panels have guy outs at the intersection of cat-cut seams. I think the event-DCF panels are the triangles below the guy-outs. Maybe the intention is for condensation running down the roof panels to get diverted by the seams to the sidewalls and outside the bath-tub floor. Any moisture hitting the event-DCF is assumed to flow through the panel and not condense and run into the bathtub floor. I don’t if the tent works this way, but those guy-outs aren’t adding much interior volume so maybe they are supposed to help condensation drain to the side.
Due to how challenging avoiding condensation or dealing with continuous rain can be I don’t think any cottage manufacturer could have released such a minimalist solution without BPL jumping on their back. HMG is known for minimalist gear too, if any manufacturer could be well received with such a product I would think it would be HMG.
If you only need protection from storms that will a few hours, how bad could the condensation get?Mar 23, 2019 at 9:40 pm #3585202
would adding a short loop of 1/8″ shock cord between cord and stake or looped into the cord, allow for some shock absorption to reduce the force going to the tent body?
Well, obviously it could reduce the shock loading, but at the cost of allowing the tent shape to deform and probably weaken. This might make things worse, not better.
I put bungee cord on the downwind end to maintain the tension in the fabric. I would never ever put bungee cord on the upwind end or side. I have a video of what happens when you do that with a tunnel tent: it was really bad. The windward end or side needs to be locked down hard.
CheersMar 23, 2019 at 9:44 pm #3585203
the vents on the DIY tent are about 6 times bigger.
As I pointed out but dismissed by Roger, with an irrelevant to the situation comment, measure the wind speed you get at 20 cm and then take the measurement at 70 cm, you will see that there is a difference.
BTW, I had a play with an SS LI yesterday, feels solid to me including those vents.Mar 23, 2019 at 9:57 pm #3585204
I doubt I dismissed such a comment, although I am sure I have made plenty of irrelevant comments along the way. Anyhow, you will find this graph of wind speed vs ht above ground in my survey of tunnel tents:
It’s on page 4 at https://backpackinglight.com/tunnel_tents_part1/ .
CheersMar 23, 2019 at 10:26 pm #3585209
I knew I would get a reaction out of you.
Thanks for that graph it illustrates the point, in this case the difference in wind speed between 20-30 cm and 65-75 cm.
From the age of 6-7 we were going up mountains like this. Not very high, this is the highest at 2.700 meters, but the weather can be rather nasty at times and change very fast. You can see the clouds on the Swiss side (the North face…) , 30 minutes later that could be completely gone or come down into the Italian side. To get out of the wind we would simply lay down flat on the ground.
BTW aged 16 or so , going up close to the bit were the hiker is and going over a bit of a ridge, I came almost face to face with a marmot. (I was downwind) The marmot let off the loudest whistle and bolted away. I nearly soiled myself.Mar 24, 2019 at 5:55 am #3585241ZaccMember
While this tent does look like a fail for all the reasons already discussed, I can imagine a super nice tent that wouldn’t be a fail but based on the same basic design:
i) extend the length of the ridge line a bit (while still maintaining the trapezoidal shape). This might even improve wind resistance up to a certain optimum.
ii) extend the actual lengh of the ridge beam further to get some decent vestibule coverage, which a) gives you more rain protection, b) more vestibule space, c) a logical place to put some ceiling vents.
iii) do something more sophisticated for venting at the foot and head – maybe sealable vents using Velcro or something
These tweaks could give you a very very weather proof and sturdy tent for 2 for about a kilo; that might be worth laying down that kind of cash for it.Mar 24, 2019 at 5:55 pm #3585278PoMember
Hey David. I’ve been using a Sil Solomid XL for most trips. Still not going to sleep much when the wind is terrible enough. But its small enough to be manageable. It’s strong and durable and simple and I trust it.
For two people I have a Nammatj. It’s a little under 4 lbs as a single wall and 6 as a double. I like it’s qualities very much.Apr 5, 2019 at 2:28 am #3587088Dan EMember
Has anyone actually gotten their hands on one, thinking about giving it a try with part of my tax refund.Apr 9, 2019 at 2:20 am #3587803Ryan JordanMember
@ryanLocale: Central Rockies
Dan, I’m just back from a ski trip in the alpine with the Dirigo.
I’m in the process of putting my initial review together for it.
I have to say that it’s probably not going to be my first choice for a tent where 50 mph wind gusts are possible, but then again, none of the trekking pole tents discussed in this thread are going to do well for those conditions.Apr 9, 2019 at 4:02 am #3587820
Near Wichlenmatt or Linthal.
CheersApr 9, 2019 at 4:45 am #3587826
Yes, exactly like that.Apr 9, 2019 at 12:14 pm #3587850Monte MastersonMember
@septimiusLocale: Changes Often
Can’t wait to see the Dirigo 2 video Ryan.
There’s a lot of talk about the Dirigo on the British website trek-lite.com. Many are saying exactly what I’ve been thinking…. that all of the YouTube videos so far are really bad.Apr 9, 2019 at 3:08 pm #3587886Ryan JordanMember
@ryanLocale: Central Rockies
Most of the youtube videos out there don’t surprise me – most people hike in the summer, mostly on trails, mostly below the treeline. The occasional t-storm might deliver a handful of gusts over the course of a half hour, but experiencing sustained, high winds (25+ mph) with higher gusts over the course of several hours – this just doesn’t bode well for ultralight tents.
Yet, it’s exactly the kind of situation experienced regularly if you hike year-round and travel above the treeline. In my (current) home range (Snowy Mountains, WY). This is a typical forecast:
In other words, highly variable conditions with respect to temperatures, wind, and snow/rainfall amounts.
So if I’m going above the treeline, I really want a shelter I can rely on, and the number of “ultralight” shelters I’d trust in these conditions is pretty small ;)
Of course, there are two issues:
- surviving a storm (i.e., see the sustained winds in the forecast above for Tue the 9th and Sunday the 14th) without my shelter getting destroyed or falling down, which I’d expect any shelter who calls itself “stormworthy” or “rock-solid” or “bomber” to be able to do, including any shelter rated for “3-season” conditions. Most ultralight shelters that their makers say are 3- or 4-season can’t even handle these conditions, and should be called “1-season” or “summer shelters” or “thru-hiking shelters” or something that squarely tells the consumer that it’s not for stormy conditions.
- being able to sleep through a storm so I can be rested enough to go the next day – ski a route, climb a peak, travel another 10 miles, whatever. Unfortunately, now we’re in the realm of shelters that are decidedly not ultralight, and have lots of hoop or geodesic poles threaded through interior pole sleeves, i.e., the 4-season mountaineering tent.
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