Lineloc Alternative

Hi Josh

$4 EACH. Oh my. It is a rich man’s sport.

I suspect they will work OK on 3 mm braided nylon cord, but I doubt they will be all that reliable with Spectra. Not enough friction with Spectra you see. No, I would not trust them myself.

Actually, I suspect they will sell some, because, well, titanium …

Cheers

That’s Ti for you plus a hefty mark up bc I can guarantee you they don’t cost that to make them!

I do like the clam cleats you have talked about! May try the $7 from Amazon and if they stink its $7 then possibly buy from the UK.

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Roger,</p>
Were did you get yours? Everything I’ve seen shipping directly from the UK is close to $30 usd, shipping is 2x as much as the product. So $30 for 10 puts it at $3, just a dollar cheaper than the expensive $4 Ti but made from plastic!

Ah – cost of shipping. Problem.
I got mine from the UK, but iirc the manager sent them to me as a sample. Very cheating!

Sigh – try some of the others sources mentioned here. Even ebay has some Chinese ones. Just watch what size cord you use, and what material the cord is made of. Nylon is recommended: it grips.

ebay has these 12 for $16.64 free postage:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CLAMCLEAT-Line-Lok-Super-Mini-Tensioner-Black-for-0-3mm-Ropes-X12-pcs/142522357489?hash=item212efe96f1:g:19wAAOSwGNtZzkoS

Amazon is, as expected, expensive.

Cheers

I can’t find the Chinese ones I did buy for evaluation.

Cheers

Roger: re: “what size line are you proposing to use with them? ”

Whatever works best.  Have no problem with buying the size line that clamcleat specifies.

Hi Sam

It annoyed me that I could not find the Chinese cleats I did buy for comparison, so I went on a search through my ebay purchase history. It turned out that i was using the wrong ebay search string! Yeah, driving the ebay search option requires some skill, plus the ability to think in Chinglish. Anyhow, the right ebay search string is
“guy line rope tightner”

Yes, I KNOW the spelling is wrong, but that is the secret to success. If you search for “guy line rope tightener” you get hordes of hits, but most of them are not worth a crumpet. You need the faulty spelling because that is what the original Chinese mfr of these cleats used.

Anyhow, 20 off imitation CL266 for US$5 with free shipping. Try some today! Btw, you want the Small size, not the Large size.

Now, what size cord? These ones will not grip on the really thin cord at the bottom end of the CL266 range, but:
Light bricklayers line (<0.8 mm): slips
1.0 mm soft cord: grips, sort of, but I am not sure I would trust it
1.0 mm solid cord: OK I think
2.5 mm braided cord: grips very well, but you may have trouble getting a second cord (attaching to the tent) through the same hole in the cleat. I managed to get light bricklayers line through, with some care.
3 x 1.2 mm flat braided climbing gear cord: OK provided you got it into the cleat sideways (1.2 mm). The 3 mm width would not even fit.

Some 1.5 – 2.0 mm nylon braided cord with a good core would be fine.

Now, the comment re the 2.5 mm cord is for how I use the cleats: attached to the tent. But if you want to use the cleat in the more common conventional way, thus, no problem.

But I don’t think you will get a hard-core 3 mm cord into the cleat. A soft-core version, maybe, but no-one needs a guy rope that strong!

Btw, I find that a loop of bricklayers cord is more than sufficient to attach the cleat to the tent pole. It’s a UL tent, for heavens sake, not a high wire under a Big Top!

HTH
Cheers

You can also buy cord/string from ebay, but there are TRAPS for the unwary. For example, looking for 1.5 mm nylon cord gets you macrame and shambala ‘cord’ (also cotton cord and bungee cord). These are for craft use. I have no idea as to the strength, and I don’t intend to find out.

Search on 1.5 mm nylon string and you get a slightly different range. The stuff sold for blinds may be OK, subject to test. Or you could buy from Lawson.

Cheers

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the tutorial.  The diagrams on the Clamcleat site are helpful also.  As are the ‘where to buy’ links.  Also posted, here I think, was Paria Outdoor Products, which sells a 10 pack of “Micro Line-Loc” guy line adjusters for $7.99 and free shipping in the USA.  But they appear to be a similar, but different product; so invite your comment if you’ve seen it.  It looks like it operates on the same principle, but since I don’t need the line adjusters right away, will buy it overseas if need be.  Liked the price on the Paria ones though.

With respect to the cord size, the Clamcleat site says:  “The CL266 uses advanced tooth technology to securely hold all types of ropes and guylines from 1 mm to 2.5 mm diameter.”  This appears to jibe with your experience.

I am a little leery of using cord that is too fine, maybe from reading spy thrillers filled with assassins with garrottes.  So I’d lean toward the 2.5 mm, and look through the cottage sites popular on BPL, including Lawson’s as you mentioned.  Actually, it is the tender aging skin on my hands, plus the fading digital coordination, and not my neck that is the concern.  Also checked my cord collection, and it is severely depleted, so will have to buy some.  I did note that some of the cord has softer covering, which makes it look thicker when it isn’t.

Am thinking of a 4 peg  side entry “pop-up” tent, with one guy on each side, the two of which are needed to keep the tent standing in severe blows.  So won’t skimp on quality.  (The other two pegs anchor the vestibules, front and back, without a guyline, but there will be loops to use for them when needed).

To achieve the light in backpacking light, I also spend a lot of time digging out products that when added to many others, actually make considerable weight savings possible.  Was just digging out some hose barb fittings from US Plastics that fit carbon arrow tubing  used for tent poles.  Had to track down some old emails, and was thinking, “Roger would have probably just gone to his lathe and turned out fittings like this from scratch.”  So now you are mucking around on Ebay.  Could you be slipping?

I was going to conclude with a rant about Amazon, but will save it for another time where it is more apropos.

The Paria fittings look similar to either the Chinese ones or the CL266. Its hard to tell.
I note they are offering some 1.5 mm Dyneema string to go with their cleats. You could do worse.

the tender aging skin on my hands, plus the fading digital coordination, and not my neck that is the concern.
Not significant (for fingers, not neck). There is little load on one’s fingers when using these. The tension on a guy rope is NOT HIGH.

Hose barb fitting from US Plastics – sounds excessive. I have a bunch of fittings for the ends of tent poles from Easton, but you are right about using my CNC lathe. No compromises.

One reason is that so many companies insist on having a lump at the end of the pole foot – I have no idea why. If there is any dirt or ice around, I can’t get the lump back out of the eyelet. It is not as though a pole foot inserted into an eyelet is going to come out by itself: there will be tension along the fabric holding it in place. I guess someone made some that way in 1950, and everyone has faithfully copied that ever since.

That is one thing I have learnt from BPL: so many commercial designs are just plain stupid. Mindless copying from 70 years ago.

As for ebay: that is my prime engineering store! Their range of engineering bits is huge compared to the local shops, while the ebay prices are missing a zero. Yes, caveat emptor of course, but there are some good vendors there – even Chinese ones.

Amazon is far worse: search there for BRS-3000T stove and you will get about 12 different stoves, all called BRS-3000T, and only ONE of them is genuine. Some of them are medium copies, while others are close to rubbish.

Cheers

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5028-461/Line-Lock?colour=NOC02

That one looks genuine, and affordable.
Cheers

Roger, re:  “many companies insist on having a lump at the end of the pole foot – I have no idea why.”

This is not a curse from history; but rather, from the dreaded “pop-ups.”  When pitching a pop-up, it is often difficult to keep a pole end in its grommet while setting other pole ends in their grommets.  The knob on the end of the pole tip makes it less likely that the pole end will pull out after being set in a grommet hole.  If there are several such holes for pole ends, you could create a great Laurel & Hardy routine about  pitching a tent.  A little like their routine about moving a piano (of the two of them and the piano, guess which one does not survive).

Although better than nothing, the knobs don’t work very well for keeping the tips in the grommets.  Tired of this, I found a swivel hook that could be taken apart, leaving a lower part that snugly accepts the ends of the Gold Tip Expedition Hunter 7595 carbon arrow shafts I use for flexible tent poles.  The lower part is sized for 3/4″ webbing or tape.  Please note:  when all the usual MYOG companies, like Quest, changed to “generic” swivel hooks, none of their lower parts would fit the poles snugly; however, two companies, Lowy and Jontay, still made parts that would fit snugly, and hold the poles well enough during  pitching, so stocked up on them.

Note that the pole tips for mounting the arrowhead also come with the Gold Tip shafts, and serve to make pole tips that can by trimmed to the diameter of the shaft ends, and with minor boring, hold shock cord recessed; thus protecting the ends of the carbon poles and holding the shock cord strung through the pole sections.  Why the Gold Tips?  Because in break tests of many carbon shafts, the above mentioned Gold Tips did significantly better than, and were lighter than, the other available carbon shafts, and even better than the Easton .344 Nanolites made of heavier ALU alloy.  One of the lower ends of the separated swivel hooks, is in the lower right corner of the photo below:

Have used these pole holders for several tents, and they work much better than grommet holes; but would not fit a variety of pole tips like the knobs do.  No problem with ice or dirt to date, possible because the pole holders are not alloy, but high density plastic and ice and dirt do not stick well to them.

Hi Sam

When pitching a pop-up, it is often difficult to keep a pole end in its grommet while setting other pole ends in their grommets.
Yeah, well, that explains that.

The problem comes when the knob on the end gets iced up or muddy, so the knob can’t fit through the eyelet any more. Been there, a long time ago.

And yeah, there are different grades of carbon fibre tubing.

Cheers

Re:  “The problem comes when the knob on the end gets iced up or muddy, so the knob can’t fit through the eyelet any more. Been there, a long time ago.”

Please note addendum to the above post.  It’s funny how we have discussed this stuff so long, and in so much detail.  Because there are so many newer members to BPL, some of it bears repeating; but I keep it as brief as possible, especially when off-piste.  There are always the private messages for those who want to get down in the weeds.   And it is great, because we can use the same photos over and over again, without often having to take new ones.

we can use the same photos over and over again, without often having to take new ones.
Ahem. Would I do that?

Cheers

FYI: Mike Cecot-Scherer says the locking nub at the end of tent poles was invented in 1986 by Sierra Designs. See my interview under “Stripping Features and Information.”

https://backpackinglight.com/standards-watch-mike-cecot-scherer-on-tent-design/

Though Mike much prefers a newer ball-and-socket connection from DAC.

Back to the main topic: genuine Clamcleat CL266 Line Loks are surprisingly hard to find from US sources; the eBay listing above ships from Latvia! Here’s one not mentioned before:

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/sea-dog-line-clamcleat-line-lok/002660

though I know nothing about them.

— Rex

locking nub at the end of tent poles was invented in 1986 by Sierra Designs.
Maybe so – I wouldn’t know. A marketing ‘feature’ rather than a necessary item.

Ball&socket connections – even more marketing features. The customer pays for them.

Me, I use a very simple pole foot and the RIGHT-sized eyelet, thus:

Pity that the pole foot itself is obscured! Oh well.

The bungee cord adds tension to the pole sleeve, which tightens the whole tent fabric. And yes, that cord lock does hold!

The sea dog company has both CL260 and CL266. They claim the CL260 is smaller, but that is not my recollection. Someone can look it up on the ClamCleat web site. The price seems reasonable for something you want to work reliably in a storm.

Cheers

There are lots of nifty locking gadgets, does anyone actually tie knots or is that the bushcraft crowd. Not being rude, just really wondering because I have taken most line locks off of my tarp as and use a bowline and half hitch easy leaky free and no extra weight

Nylon string works OK with various hitches, but Spectra does not. It slips. This may be part of the story.

Cheers

Stumbled across another U.S. source of what looks like genuine Clamcleat CL266 Mini Line Loks and CL260 Line Loks  here:

https://www.arrowhead-equipment.com/store/p467/Cam_Line_Lok.html

Again, I know nothing else about Arrowhead Equipment.

— Rex

Noted the advantages and issues about small diam. cord, especially if it is slick.  However, the biggest issue for me is cord that is of sufficient diameter that it is easy to work with and won’t burn let alone cut the hands.  Sailors may have calloused hands, but the only callouses on my hands are on the finger tips from playing steel stringed guitars.

So think the best choice of cord depends on the user.  Next step for me would be looking at weights of 2-3mm cord, preferably with a braided weave for flexibility and versatility.  Would look at offerings from dyneema and spectra cord; but would also dig out the older threads on BPL about cord from arborists, and see what’s on the web.

After choosing the most desirable cords, would look at the tighteners.  The one that appeared to be both the strongest and simplest was the Line-Loc Hook, sold by Dutchware as noted above, and by others.  Strongest, because although light, the parts are all robust.  No tiny knife edges or movable parts, or skinny acetal rods just begging to fail.  The “hook” part may not even be necessary, and might be cut off and buffed out of the picture.

That said, the next challenge is to figure out how to rig the thing so it functions like one of the variations of a tautline hitch,  or like a clam cleat; so there are no loose ends floating around.  If that does not work out, and unless a more compact but more robust Line-loc or mini Line-Loc comes along, would probably stick with the lightest and strongest 2-3mm cord in a braided weave tied with a tautline hitch, and with a surface slick enough to repel water and ice.  The prospect of a dyneema thread core with an outer cover, or the like, sounds way fiddly.  Have seen the issues with non-woven DCF “fabric.”

Hope a trimmed down Line-Loc Hook will work for 2-4 guy-lines, at least two of which would be permanent, not accessory.   This would be in line with an approach that seeks a true woven fabric tent; but made lighter with all the little doodad parts minimized in size, weight and number as much as possible.

Apropos Roger’s comments about parts that fit the application, note that Carbon Pole bottom ends plugged with aluminum tips that come with the shafts, and fit snugly into receptors made by taking apart 3/4″ swivel hooks, shown in the far right of the photo below.  Note the swivel hooks must be Lowy or Jontay, not the “generics” sold by our usual suppliers.  The poles are 5 layer carbon Gold-Tip Expedition Hunter shafts, size 75/95, 8.9 gr (grains)/inch.  Way lighter than all the metal doodads; and the four acetal receptors hold the pole ends firmly and securely in place.

The ultimate choices would address not only the tighteners; but also the available cordage.  Granted, this post is fairly off-piste and gets down into the weeds.  There may be no other good way to build a tent because everything about the process is inter-connected.

The prospect of a dyneema thread core with an outer cover, or the like, sounds way fiddly.
That may be back to front? Not sure.
I use a Spectra core with a Dacron sheath, Yes, it was a bit fiddly making up each guy rope, but a) they will never break, and b) they grip very well in the Clam Cleats.

Cheers

How did Daryl’s tents go?

Jerry,

Selling tents was easy.  At 4 lb (tent+fly+poles)  with two doors, two vestibules, two person, all ripstop nylon tent, closeable mosquito net windows, 40 mph wind stable and 4 fit high in the mid 1970s I had no competition,

Making them was hard and I was unable to get someone else to make them correctly.  I also had no interest in taking on all the head aches of becoming a business person.

So I quit selling them and returned the effort to a hobby level.

Now back to the original post.  Sorry for the thread drift and sorry for taking a year to answer your question Jerry.

Daryl and Daryl,

Guessing that you refer to the tent that was in your avatar for a long time.  Appreciate further info about its history.

While the making of the the tent may be hobby level, enjoying the use of its novel features puts you in the inventor class.  Just the other day was reading about Thomas Edison and his friendship with Henry Ford.  No one would consider Ford a mere hobbyist; but it is folks like Edison who were so admired and respected by Americans.  Maybe especially if one wanted to go for a drive after dark.