Lineloc Alternative

[Christoph Blank]

Roger, quick question – with the “free end” version and the CL266, if I understand it right it doesn’t tighten itself, it all depends on the manual tightening. With high winds etc, did you ever have one getting loose?

[Roger Caffin]

Hum – 1st reply vanished in the mist.

With high winds etc, did you ever have one getting loose?
Never. Even in 100 kph storm.

Have a look at my post 3629728 on Feb 3, 2020. It has explanatory photos. Later on there are more. The point of the CL266 is that when the rope is loaded, it jams further into the cleat and holds even better. It DOES tighten itself. Remember that this design comes from the yachting industry, and has been in use for … 100+ years?

The free end can flail around without upsetting the cleat, but I tie the free end off onto the main bit of the guy rope with a simple thumb knot anyhow, to stop it banging against the tent.

As for the ‘manual tightening’ bit – well, ANY adjuster on a tent relies on you adjusting it to the right tension. On my red snow tent it would take maybe 2 – 3 seconds to adjust each guy rope to the right tension.

Cheers

[Christoph Blank]

Roger, what I mean is, you have to tighten/jam the rope manually. The more you push it into the cleat, the better.
How would it self-tighten if the end is free and there is no tension on that end that would push/tighten the rope further into the cleat since the cleat is on the side of the free end?

With the normal setup it self-tightens since there is a tension on the end that goes into the cleat, with a force on the rope, towards the inner of the cleat.

[Roger Caffin]

you have to tighten/jam the rope manually
Correct.
I free the jammed rope, pull the guy rope tight, and then jam the rope back in the cleat. Takes about 2 seconds.
Yachties have been doing it this way for over 100 years. It really is not a problem, and it really works reliably.

There was some wind …

Cheers

[Christoph Blank]

Thanks Roger :) Just wanted to clarify how you do it!
Glad to hear it holds up to these conditions, I’ll try it myself as well

[Roger Caffin]

I will add a benefit of the cleat over the lineloc. To tighten the lineloc you pull on the string, but that means you are slowly wearing away the nylon bar at the end, the one the string runs over. This does not happen with a cleat.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Roger,

What do you think of the Lite Outdoors Tensioner sold by Amazon.  It weighs ~1.8 gm-.065 oz, is very compact, operating like a small buckle, only for 1-2.5 mm cord rather than webbing.  Unlike a buckle, though, it has a moving part inside that tightens pressure on the cord as the tension increases.  The part has no  knife edges; but rather, is indented where a knife edge would be with a V-shaped depression that clamps onto the incoming and outgoing portions of the cord.  Here is the link, although not very helpful:  https://www.amazon.com/LiteOutdoors-Ultralight-Guyline-Tensioners-Backpacking/dp/B0792WN5L4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=HVKSWVTDJ4T8&dchild=1&keywords=liteoutdoors+guyline+tensioner&qid=1616388817&sprefix=Lite+Outdoors+Guyli%2Caps%2C178&sr=8-3

While cord is tough to measure with a caliper, it being compressible, I experimented with 1-2.5 mm cord and they all worked equally well, and there appears to be room for 3mm cord if desired.  While it is designed to be held in place by a loop of cord, a piece of 3/16″ wide thin webbing will also fit into a slot, to be sewn to the canopy.  Because it has the small moving clamp, it will operate without controlling the angle of the tensioner in the way in the way webbing holding a pack buckle does.

[William Chilton]

What do you think of the Lite Outdoors Tensioner sold by Amazon.

They look to be the same thing as these. I’ve been using them for a while and they’ve all held well. I find that they are harder to get to release the tension than with regular Linelocs and Clamcleats, but that’s a minor thing.

[Roger Caffin]

Lite Outdoors Tensioner sold by Amazon.
Same as the cord adjuster sold by Dutchware. Possibly the same source in China, so to speak. See posting 3629312 in this thread for a pic.

The problem with the design (imho), compared to that of a cleat, is that in a storm with things rattling around, the little sliding bar which holds the cord can become slightly loose at times, and over a few hours the guy rope can lose its tension. Little bit by little bit. A cleat on the other hand never lets go of the rope.

My 2c.
Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

From close inspection, William’s, and the one in posting 3629312,  appear to be of the same design and construction if not same manufacture.  While they can be threaded two ways, when threaded per the instruction on the Amazon page, the lower end of the device must be lifted almost perpendicular to the line to get release.  Glad to hear from William that this is not a major problem.  Sad to hear from Roger that in a storm there can be loss of tension over time.   Food for thought.  Thank you.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

I have had a similar device lose tension for that reason.
But if you can get it coated with ice there should be no problem.

Cheers

[John S.]

this is backpacking light..taut line hitch…jk

[Roger Caffin]

Yes, this is BPL, but taut line hitches are not reliable on Spectra cord. The stuff is too hard and slippery, and the knots slide.

Me, I use 1 mm Spectra sheathed in braided Dacron. The Dacron has slightly more surface friction and the combo works well. But I had to make the composite up myself.

Cheers

[Rex Sanders]

Knots vs LineLoc-like-thingies:

When I was taught whitewater rafting back in the dark ages, we tied gear to boats with ropes and hoopie (aka tubular nylon webbing) using a variety of knots. And I taught those same knots to new guides. They were a PITA to tie and untie, especially after getting wet and drying out.

Then affordable cam straps came along. Soon, we were teaching just one or two knots to tie boats to shore.

Yes, those straps have their own problems, including being more expensive and needing a ridiculously large assortment – still have a couple dozen in the garage after selling that many with my boat. But they were so much easier, quicker, and adjustable that nobody I knew stuck with the old way. And cam straps are much more reliable than easy-to-screw-up complex knots, especially for beginners.

For BPL – long way of saying, knots might be a tad lighter, but lightness isn’t everything. LineLocs and ClamCleats are a big improvement for a tiny weight increase.

Especially on slippery 1-3 mm lines that can be almost impossible to untie when knots jam.

— Rex

[Josh J]

I think the hardware has it’s place like winter for use with gloves or just those who are knot impaired but Andrew Skurkas method is pretty easy to use once you get used to it.

[Sam Farrington]

OK Roger, you talked me into CL266 clam cleats in record time.  But will need to order some and make the emotional adjustment, and check the resistance to vibration.  If they can withstand wind storms without losing tension, they fill the bill.  Looks like they will require a bit of self-training, and getting used to, though:  https://www.clamcleat.com/mini-line-lok.html

And they appear to be very small, light, strong, and inexpensive.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

Suckered! :) :) :)

But seriously, what size line are you proposing to use with them? It needs to be in the right range to grip in the V-groove.

They WILL resist vibration, totally. Just pull the string into the groove and you are done. The training required is almost zero. Hey – I could do it in a fog/gale where I could not see the length of the tent.

Cheers
Roger

[Matthew / BPL]

Roger, I have vague recollections of a study you did with different types of lines and a scale to easier holding power through those. Can you provide a link? Maybe I am confusing  you with someone else or a different product

Also, is there any reason to  not use them tied to guyout points on a tarp? I don’t care for the usual configuration where the minimum length is ~1/2 the length of the line.

[Greg Pehrson]

Matthew, no reason to be limited to 1/2 the length of the line. I saw that comment earlier on and forgot to respond.

You can use the whole length of the line. All you have to do is pull out the slack you want from the end with the stopper knot and tie a slipknot (make sure it’s tied in the orientation so it doesn’t slip when tensioned against the clam cleat, but only from the standing end!)  as a new stopper knot. I can’t remember where/ how I learned this. I don’t think I’m clever enough to think it up.

Normal setup:

 

 

Slack taken out, with slipknot stopper:

 

[Matthew / BPL]

Oh good tip! Thanks, Greg!

[Josh J]

@gregpehrson

Where did you get yours from?  I’m thinking of getting some for winter or when I’m being lazy!

[Greg Pehrson]

Josh, the ones in my picture were from Paria Outdoors:

https://www.pariaoutdoorproducts.com/collections/backpacking-gear-accessories/products/micro-line-loc-guy-line-adjusters-10-pack

Dutchware also has them:

https://dutchwaregear.com/product/line-locks/

The nomenclature/branding is confusing: LineLocs on one hand vs Micro Line-locs/Clamcleat Mini Line-loks/Line-locks on the other (3 names for what appear to be the same thing).

 

[Josh J]

Thanks,

Very interesting.  Amazon appears to have the same thing

[Roger Caffin]

You need to be a bit careful about where you buy the cam-cleats.

I buy mine direct from CamCleat in the UK, type CL266, but there are several poor quality copies around, on ebay and Amazon. The copies still work, but not quite as well and with a smaller range of cords thicknesses.

And if you use them my way, you can adjust over the full length of the cord. Mind you, in practice in the field I only need to make very small adjustments.

Cheers

[Josh J]

Roger,  good point.

I just saw these and wonder how well they work

https://loopalien.com/products/micro-titanium-glt?variant=31197607919686

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