Arcteryx Norvan SL – 4.2 oz Rain Shell with Gore Tex Permanent Beading Surface

Ive always had condensation on the inside of my rain jackets even with fresh dwr (new jackets) once the freezing rain starts, without a fleece

pertex, gore pro, event, etc …. Didnt matter

the “old school” jackers with a fuzzier tricot style interior however seems to be a bit better (ironically some folks have found the old tricot lined bivies to be less condensation prone than the newer slick ul ones)

even a lower CFM wind shirt in the winter (which is more breathable than any rain jacket) i need to reverse and air out every now and then to get rid of the condensation

its pretty basic …. Freezing cold rain hits and cools shell …. Warm body vapour hits cooled shell … Especially if the inside surface is slick

if youve hiked in continuous freezing rain, its pretty hard not to notice how much the rain cools the shell

;)

OK, but no measurements so no figures so we actually don’t know what happens. I mean, you have the thin shell-layer with cold to very cold rain on one side and the hot core on the other side. So the cooling effect is counteracted by the coretempeffect with the result that we don’t know the endtemperature of the shell and thus in which way it influences condensation. Sure, I know how freezing rain can cool the shell but that doesn’t allow me to know what really happens then without really testing it. There is a real difference between an hypothesis and hard data (again and again). :)

from furtech who make UK rain gear …

In the temperate regions of the world rain normally forms as ice and snow crystals in the upper atmosphere. It melts as it falls to earth, but can still be cooler than the air it falls into. The high heat capacity of this cool rain can have a noticeable chilling effect on the air at ground level. It can also quickly chill the outer fabric of your clothing system to below the dew point, causing condensation.

http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech/2009/04/why-is-rain-cold.html

also why fuzzier is better …

The dew point is the combination of temperature, humidity and pressure when condensation occurs. In a clothing system this typically occurs first in the outer layer where moisture laden air from the body meets cold, damp fabrics. However, condensation in these outer layers can cause them to saturate (they can appear to change from hydrophobic to hydrophilic – a sentiment change) causing a loss of insulation and allowing the dew point to creep closer to the body. This is why you often find wetness inside perfectly waterproof garments. In civil engineering it is sometimes called cold bridging.

FurTech jackets are designed to resist Dew Point Creep. The furry lining fabric (the synthetic fur faces away from the body) directs liquid water outwards and is designed to stay warm when wet and dry quickly. 

http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech/2008/07/dew-point-creep.html

;)

” Sure, I know how freezing rain can cool the shell but that doesn’t allow me to know what really happens then without really testing it. There is a real difference between an hypothesis and hard data (again and again). :)”

True… go out and get some cold weather experience like some of the rest of us have and you will have something better than data… actual experience. Experience trumps data.

Billy

one more quote from someone who used to post and write articles for BPL …

TGO Gear Editor, Chris Townsend, says “I’ve found that when the outer fabric wets out the condensation increases in all membrane/coated fabrics (all types of Gore-Tex, eVENT, Sympatex, all the PU coatings)… However even with a good DWR and no wetting out I can still produce much condensation in all these fabrics, especially in prolonged rain. Paramo is far more breathable and my first choice as long as it’s cold enough (mostly October to May). “

http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech/2006/11/phases_of_breat.html

When it rains conditions are often cooler and water running over your waterproofs has a powerful chilling effect. That’s why water is used to cool engines: it has a high heat capacity, high conductance and absorbs massive amounts of energy to evaporate. Once the outer fabric of a jacket becomes saturated, (perhaps because the water repellency has worn off or because condensation has occurred within the fabric) then the waterproof membrane becomes chilled. Once it’s cold enough, (the dew point temperature) condensation occurs.

http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech/2006/10/wet_weather_bre.html

;)

True… go out and get some cold weather experience like some of the rest of us have and you will have something better than data… actual experience. Experience trumps data.

Good idea. Oh wait, I already do and have that.

For the rest, nice quotes but still not the hard evidence that can convince me.

An old but good read on Dew Point in clothing layers:  Cold Weather Clothing by Gordon G. Giesbrecht, Ph.D.

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/hlhpri/media/Cold_Weather_Clothing.pdf

nothing “convinces” BPLers …

i learned that a long time ago … well until a famous ULer posts something up that says “i wish i had a fleece in the rain”

and suddenly fleece was acceptable again despite all the numbers saying it was the most weight inefficient insulation that would make you keel over from the heaviness

;)

and suddenly fleece was acceptable again despite all the numbers saying it was the most weight inefficient insulation that would make you keel over from the heaviness

Actually, I didn’t need convincing for that as that was already my idea. :)

PS: BTW, I don’t see BPL as a forum to convince others. Just a place to get interesting discussions, get ideas and find interesting info.

About durability concerns, this might be of interest:

“Gore’s Ebert says the company is experimenting with fabrics that might be better suited for use under packs for sports like mountain biking and climbing.”

Smacks head.  Lighter weight woven fabrics coated with silicone, woven fabrics made of polypropylene, woven UHMWPE and polypropylene fiber fabric blends, all with lightweight, more porous than usual membrane below these. Definitely other choices.

I would say woven PTFE fabric outer, but since it’s so dense, it’s not suitable.

Any updated reports on the long(ish) term durability of this?    I’m about to bring mine on the JMT.  Hoping it holds up ok.

“the reason why i dont think too many folks are excited about it is because most UL jackets are for “just in case” use … And for that something like driducks or a helium generally works fine

for serious sustained rain we probably have a beefier rain jacket anyways”

That’s pretty much the way I look at it.  If it’s going to stay in my pack, I’m more concerned about having something that will work in a pinch but is lightweight.  If I’m going to be hiking through multi day rain showers, comfort is king.

Someone earlier commented on Arc being a silly status symbol.  That may be true, and Eric has shared some hysterical stories about how dead bird sales work in BC, but I find that their jackets live up to the hype.  With a few minor adjustments, their hoods feel like they are spot welded to my head to where I don’t feel like I lose any peripheral vision but my head stays dry.

Thanks for posting about this jacket.  I’m definitely intrigued.

It works when you actually use it off the couch. Add duct tape slivers to shoulder and you’ll be golden.

“It works when you actually use it off the couch.”

Thanks for clearing that up.

c sweeney …

theres an interesting note from the dead bird staff on their norvan SL page …

take it as you will …

as to duct tape … i can ask them if it voids the warranty next time i stop by their factory store … i was just there today

;)

Anymore real world feedback on this jacket?  As an FYI, as far as I can tell there no mens versions available for sale on the interwebs.  Arcteryx shows them out of stock online and I called them to confirm.  Out of stock with no ETA for new stock.  I ordered the TNF Hyperair to at least get a feel for the fabric.  It’s nearly twice the weight but still not bad.  I also ordered the standard Norvan which is just GTX C-Knit but pretty light for a 3-Layer at 7.6 (claimed).

It’s available on the UK site: http://www.arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&model=Norvan-SL-Hoody. You might have to change your regional preferences to see it.

I had one shipped to Italy (free shipping, it leaves from Germany and arrives in a day, along with prepaid UPS stickers if you want to send it straight back).

It hasn’t rained yet so I haven’t had a chance to try it. It is incredibly lightweight and feels pretty flimsy, I can see why they don’t recommend a heavy backpack with it. Mine says made in Canada.

So I have some information about this Shell that may be interesting to anyone looking to get one.  They are completely sold out in every online store I tried in the USA.  I did try to the trick above using the UK site but as soon as I tried to insert a USA shipping address for delivery the jacket would be removed from the shopping cart.

This is what I did.  I called Arcteryx HQ in Canada.  They confirmed they are not in stock in the USA warehouse and have NO ETA for returning to stock.  All Arcteryx products made in China have to go the destination country warehouse for delivery from that country for taxes, etc.  At least for the USA that is 100% the case.  So even though they may have a particular item in stock in Canada, if it came from China they cannot ship it to you in the USA>

Here is the Kicker.  The Norvan SL jacket is actually manufactured in CANADA.  So this whole import issue is null and void.  The very nice person on the phone gladly took my order since I could not order one online.  I ordered a Large and an Extra Large since I was not sure what size would work for me.  Order was placed late Friday afternoon and arrived today.  No shipping costs.

For me being 6′ 2″ 200lbs the size XL is for sure the best size.  Plenty of room to layer but far from baggy.  I also have the North Face HyperAir GTX jacket.  The fabric (at least to the eye) is identical.  The TNF one has more bells and whistles like waste draw cord, velcro wrist cuffs, zipper has an internal flap to added wind/water protection, two very large front pockets that are mesh on the inside so these can act as vents to some degree.  Both have hood draw cords with the TNF one is more elaborate but the Norvan SL seems fine.  Specs below:

Norvan SL size XL = 140gm / 4.94oz (I did not weigh the large as I’m returning or selling it)

North Face HyperAir GTX size XL = 255gm 7.93oz

Norvan Gore-Tex w/ C-Knit size XL = 240gm 8.46oz

Not sure if it will cost me money to return the size large Norvan SL.  I may list on the for sale forum.

For those that were early-adopters and have been living with this material for months now, what are your experiences?

I have been fairly happy with the Norvan SL.  Good:

1. Most breathable shell I have used bar none.  When it’s 45F I stay drier wear it than when I run without a shell.  This is actually an accomplishment.  I can do a hard push up in 55F an not get too damp.. and dry out on the following downhill.
2. Lightweight and compact
3. Perfect fit for me. Hood is decent for an UL jacket
4. Not experienced a wet-out, even in a multi-hour storm.  Dries in minutes
5. Doesn’t sound / feel like a stiff WPB shell

Not As Good

1. Price
2. Zipper sometimes leaks.  In very heavy rain  I had some leakage through the zipper.
3. Fragile… haven’t had a problem, but I baby it and mostly use it for running and day hikes without bushwhacking.

People have compare it to Porpore (like the original O2rainwear).  I have found it more durable, more breathable, and WAY better fitting at 10x the cost :(

I sure would like to hear from Christopher how this jacket worked out on his JMT trip!

The main concern I see being expressed is durability of the fabric.  Has anyone seen a report of actual fabric tearing due to pack straps?  IF this jacket turns out to be durable enough to wear under a weighted back, this may be a winner (A VERY, VERY expensive winner, though).

By the way, as of this writing, the jacket appears to be available again in the US.

Heya!

Sorry for the slow reply.  Yes I used the Norvan SL on the JMT this year.  (Aug 24-Sept 12).  I saw very little rain, so it mostly stayed in my pack.

Coming down Forester I had some light sprinkles so I wore it for a few hours while hiking.  It felt like a wind jacket. Didn’t feel clammy at all.  :)

At the base of Whitney I saw real rain which I was only exposed to for a few hours.  The jacket again performed excellent.   Didn’t wet out or leak anywhere.  Didnt feel clammy.  LOVE the hood and how it feels like a nice protective bubble around my head without feeling constricting.   No durability issues…but again most of the time it stayed in my pack.   Conservatively, I think the Norvan is best suited to these types of trips.  (Mostly dry w/ slight chance of rain).

I don’t have a ton of data to back this up, but at this point I think I’d trust this for longer trips in heavy rain/snow as well.

All my other pertex and gortex jackets have left me wet to some degree in heavy rain.  Either from wetting out, and/or my own sweat buildup.  The Norvan surpasses these by far.  If it were to fail one day, and delaminate or wet out, I don’t see that as substandard.  Unless of course the thing turned into shreds on my next trip.  But I think that’s unlikely.  Don’t want to jinx myself though.  ;)

I’ll probably bring it on some winter trips coming up so I’ll keep ya guys informed.

Btw….I’m still working on my JMT movie.  It’s turning out to be a pretty elaborate production with about 300+ editing hours involved…so I hope ya like it.  It should be done in a week.  Preview:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLk7tT72uU8

Thank you both. Great feedback. I think I’ll have to give it a shot when it comes back in stock.

Enjoyed the video, Chris – especially the time-lapse shots.

In the final 50 minute production there will be more time lapses, 3d stuff, and even some nifty animations.   And it will be free. Yey!!   :)

Sorry don’t mean to derail this thread.  But yes, if you have the cash and want to save that extra ounce and improve comfort in the rain with the slight added risk to durability, then yes I recommend the Norvan SL.   Absolutely.

If you’re looking for UL, but want to be cost efficient, get a set of dri ducks.