Arcteryx Norvan SL – 4.2 oz Rain Shell with Gore Tex Permanent Beading Surface

If it’s similar to the North Face HyperAir GTX jacket then it will probably have similar limitations.

TNF HyperAir Review on GearJunkie

Durability seems to be a big issue with the new material, and I’d be pretty worried about how it would handle constant abrasion of shoulder straps on a pack.

This new Permanent Beading Technology seems to employ a similar principle to the lens coatings now used in high-end optics such as Zeiss binoculars, the coating mimicking the microscopic surface patterns of many plant leaves which force water to bead and run off without ever spreading across or soaking into the surface.

I can say that is not true (and also not necessary as the outer layer is PTFE which has a low surface energy).

Thanks for the link.  The author states he hiked hard and the NF fabric breathed well.  It was when he ran that the fabric failed and he was wet under the jacket.  The author also states the jacket performed well in the rain.

I’m not a runner.  I hike.  I’ll look more into this product.

The author stated he perspired when he ran but not while “hiking.”

That is a problem for me as I find I sweat way more when hiking uphill compared to when I run. To add to that, the durability still seems to be an issue. Although I do not see any pictures yet, I bet they will be hesitant to show any of the jacket with people wearing any type of backpack.

I am still interested in a neo-shell versus GTX PBS (permanent beading surface) breathability test/comparison.

I’ve been watching this jacket for some time.  My concern is the fact that they are marketing toward runners.  Does that mean it’s not durable enough for backpack straps?

Also, the fit looks tighter.  May need to size up to accommodate fleece/puffy underneath.

Btw the large weighs 5.2 oz according to the Arcteryx rep.

I would wait to hear if it is durable enough for backpacking straps. My guess is it is not as I know no special protection is used currently in the technology. But hopefully in a few years …

Does PTFE repel oils well?

I think (and am almost sure) it’s not.

Danke, didn’t think so.  So not much reason to choose this over say an EPIC outer shell it seems.  PTFE is also a fairly dense material, almost twice the density of nylon (but less strong).  Woven nylon fibers encapsulated with silicone is going to much stronger and more durable per same or less weight than PTFE.

I recently did some shower tests with the PP baselayer over a cut down Tyvek coverall.  Unfortunately the PP baselayer is just way too porous (and the Tyvek a bit over porous)–i experienced some wet through to the baselayer in some areas (mostly under the Tyvek zipper area).  I didn’t tape the seams, shoulder, etc yet though (i would likely tape up most of the zipper area too if i was going to bring it backpacking).

But combining an EPIC type shell with the Tyvek would work much better since the EPIC is going to have a much higher initial HH than the PP baselayer.    It’s just too bad there aren’t more EPIC type shells being made–especially those that use lighter nylon deniers like 30D vs the much more common 70D.

I just would wait till there are more userreports on how it performs and how durable it is.

This seems like it could easily replace a Propore jacket. Those jackets tend to be very breathable, waterproof and really lightweight, but ridiculously fragile. I think this is roughly the same weight (or lighter depending on the cut of the jacket) while being more durable (even if it isn’t as durable as a typical rain jacket).

To put things into perspective a bit:

Density of PTFE is 2.2 g/cm3, Polypropylene is around .95, and nylon is around 1.15.

Consider also that most likely this is a non woven form of PTFE–a stretched out, semi-porous film.

Considering how little the jacket weighs,  the PTFE going to be a fairly thin considering the density of the base material.

It’s not going to be a whole lot more durable than Driducks type material.  But it will cost you many, many times the amount and when it does get holes, rips, etc, it will not hold tape like Driducks, Frog Toggs, etc type materials.  It does sound like it will be more breathable though.

My earlier suggestion of EPIC (outer) + taped Tyvek (mid layer) is worth at least trying out–if done right, it will cost a lot less than the above.   It would also be a non reapplying DWR system, but much more durable (and depending on the EPIC type shell and Tyvek suit inner used, likely as breathable if not significantly more). A 2012 and pre Houdini, with added silicone to the seams and shoulder areas would be a fine, lightweight substitute for an EPIC branded type jacket.

Consider also that silicone and PTFE have similar surface energy.  The PTFE based jacket will need to be periodically deep rinsed and occasionally mildly washed/well rinsed to function properly, similar to an EPIC type shell.

Good point about the cost (I meant to mention that). If this really is more breathable than Propore, that is a great accomplishment. While Propore seems to vary, it is quite breathable (a little less breathable than Event, but Event is a lot heavier). I’ve also been in some torrential down pores, and not had it wet out (which is more than I can say about a lot of Goretex style jackets).

As for your other suggestion, I wonder if you could make a synthetic puffy jacket out of Tyvek. Now you have a very light puffy layer, that you normally wear under a wind shirt. You save some weight, because you have fewer items. You wouldn’t be able to wear a rain jacket straight over a shirt, but personally I could live with that (if it is wet, it is cold).

There was a review on outside online by Berne Broudy and she confirmed great breathability … but thin fabric [her words] raised durability questions (won’t let me post the link … Google it).

Ok so I did something brave and ordered one. Don’t tell my wife. It showed up today.
Few observations:
-Water beads up better than normal under a sink faucet. Like Teflon.
-Its a very trim fit. I wear a size medium normally, but ordered the size Large which fits perfect and leaves just enough room for a fleece underneath.
-Fabric is almost like a softer rubber like material. Like a soft textured inner tube or something. Not “wispy” like pertex.
-It feels more substantial that expected. Feels beefier than a Houdini.
-The hood is cool. Feels like a springy-ish wire in the brim that holds its shape well.
-Sleeve cuffs are just mildly stretchy. No adjustments. Doesn’t form a seal around my wrists (if you’re into that) but it seems fine.
-Large weighs 4.5 oz on my scale once I removed the tag. (Tag was almost an ounce!)
-While it feels substantial…I do worry it will tear easy. No idea about actual durability yet. Only wore it in the house.
-Breathability seems good, but it’s hard for me to measure while stagnant indoors.
-The zipper is more red than orange.
-Feels like a slightly longer cut. Maybe because I sized up.

Overall I’m not disappointed. Seems like a high quality jacket. Really glad I sized up!
I’m certainly worried about tears…so I’ll treat it more gentle than normal. To be expected from a 4.5oz jacket.
This fabric is so crazy…feels like I’m wearing the future!

Ross, at least in the case of Driducks Frog Togg materials, i “think” that the exaggerated over sizing tends to contribute to the overall breathablity of the system–acts in a way like a less vented poncho–there is more air convection than in regular and more fitted type jackets (especially if you put the hip belt of your pack under the jacket and not over).

While taping the seams and shoulder areas of tyvek and wearing an outer shell would really increase the durability of Tyvek “cloth” type materials–still not so sure i would want to put most puffy insulation in it.  Maybe Apex, but probably not the looser fiber types.  Also, some of the punctured pores in the Tyvek coverall suits may be large enough to let Down feathers, if not plumes, escape.

The main problem with using Tyvek for that specific application is the issue of washing it.  It will not stand up well to regular washing, which you will have to do when you have some kind of insulation within it and if you wear it a fair amountt.  Tyvek used as an occasional mid layer for rain purposes, will need to be rinsed occasionally, and very occasionally mildy washed–but it would be less than using it for a jacket with insulation that you would likely wear a lot more often.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your thoughts and insights! I’ll especially look forward to your ongoing impressions of it in use, Christopher.

Like others have said – this is likely to need careful handling, as is true for much of our ultralight gear. But if I can have this in my pack for summer rain storms and a Houdini to take most of the day to day pack strap abuse, all for under 250g, then I’d say that’s a win!

Wore it today for a short 2 hour day hike.  Light rain ~75% of the time.  Had a daypack stuffed with about 15 lbs of water bottles to help get me back into shape.

Impressions:

-Best hood I’ve ever had on a shell. (I own 9 shells) Perfect brim, doesn’t feel clammy over your ears.  Just amazing.  Wish all shells had this.

-Breathability is superior to anything I’ve used in the past.

-No wetting out.  (Remember only 2 hours of light rain…hope that keeps up)

-Big reliable zipper was a nice bonus.  Much bigger than most UL shells.

-No signs of wear with the day pack.  (Again, only 2 hours)

It impressed me enough that I decided I’m taking in on the JMT in late Aug/Sept.   I’ll let ya know if it survives that ;)

“Big reliable zipper was a nice bonus.  Much bigger than most UL shells.”

It uses a molded YKK Vilson zipper rather than a coil zipper like most WP/B jackets use.  Though most of my shells have coil zippers, I have found the Vilson zippers eaiser to use and more reliable.

I like and think the basic idea of this is great. About time companies start to take non-durable WR coatings out of the equation.  I love the idea of permanent and truly durable water repellancy, greater moisture movement and increased air porosity.

But why pay hundreds of dollars for it when other more durable alternatives are available?  Especially when such expensive pieces are little more durable than Dri Ducks material?

The physics of it are very clear on that matter.  Just take the contrast of woven textiles vs non wovens.  Almost every time woven fibers will beat out non wovens as to tensile strength, burst strength, and general durability and abrasion resistance (slight exception to cuben fiber, but that’s a different comparison).  PTFE’s slipperyness will help to limit the latter a bit, but not enough to contribute to long term and real world durability at the thinness required for a denser material to not weigh much in a jacket design.

Polypropylene is literally more than twice as light as PTFE per same volume and gravitational force.  Dri Ducks jackets (PP based) are fairly light, also non woven, but also still fairly thin (Frog Toggs material is a bit heavier and more substantial and thus also more durable than DriDucks).

Most people that have used DriDuck type pieces, know that it’s fairly easy to get holes and abrasion.  I do very little bushwacking all in all, and yet i have holes in my thinner Frog Toggs brand poncho.  But i’ve found that tyvek tape sticks really well to it and easily patched them up.

Driduck jackets are ok for trail use, but pack strap abrasion is a very real issue.  Given PTFE’s lower surface energy as compared to PP, that will probably help it a bit in this area, but again, to keep beating a newly resurrected Gore, to get to that kind of low weight, the material has to be fairly thin–thinner than the PP used on a Driducks jacket.

At the end of the day, i don’t really care who wears what or doesn’t, but i’ve grown a bit tired and cynical of these corporations and their often misleading marketing.  Because i see it as corrupt and dishonest, at times i want to counter balance it with truth and facts.  I have an inherent dislike of seeing people purposely and deliberately mislead or conned. Goretex has been doing that in some areas for quite awhile, along with some unsavory strong arming business practices particularly doesn’t endear them to me.

While this is a good step in the right direction, it’s not the best next thing yet.  Most folks aren’t aware that there are alternatives, as the alternatives require systems thinking and out of the box thinking. Since i haven’t seen mention of these combos here besides from self, i can say that with some certainty.

Paramo is also a step in the right direction, but because it depends so much on such temporary and replaceable DWR’s and generally uses very durable and heavier fabrics, it also lacks in some major ways.

Marry the very general Paramo concept with the permanent or near permanent DWR concept (new Goretex, Outdry Extreme, EPIC, Polypropylene, Tyvek, etc), and you have a sure winner. Then it’s a matter of getting the individuals pieces ideal CFM, HH, etc in the right range.  In essence, what is needed is two layers of materials that do not require reapplying a DWR to have a higher repellency + higher breathability.

Edited to erase my initial joking comment, because while i didn’t have the intention, i realized it might be hurtful and unnecessarily so.

Just got the Norvan SL and had it in the rain for half hour. Size large is 4.4oz, medium is 4.2oz. Here are some thoughts:

Overall – unbelievable that a mainstream company would make what could easily be termed not light, not UL, not even SUL, but XUL rain jacket with features and full rain protection.

The good:

– Adjustable hood – a total surprise, but the back of the hood is adjustable. Damn.
– Hand cuff and Chin/beard protection – also a surprise, Arcteryx used a beefier material that looks like Dyneema for wear here.
– Interior fabric. Feel the woven fabric here, not plastic and not sticky. Great job on the inside. Even a tad bit of 2-way stretch.
– Zipper pulls – they actually used a very similar cord that zpacks uses for zipper pulls! A small thing, but definitely not the mainstream route. Two thumbs up.
– Fit – awesome. No issues. Size up if hiking, keep same size if running.
– Seam tape – very good, thin and light seam tape that matches the inside color
– Reflectors on side – great for runners
– Heavy-duty zipper – a smart, responsible and honest move on Arcteryx’s part. The bigger zipper adds a bit of weight, but is a much better zipper long term.

The bad
– Biggest gripe – no pit vents. I know it breathes well and it’s an uber-light jacket, but the dead bird crew could have added similar weather-proof openings that the Norvan jacket has. No miracle fabric (yet) can match the amount of air pit vents can add. Wouldn’t add any weight if they are auto-open slits.
– The deep gray color kind of sucks. Before you put it on it really does look like a thin garbage bag. The orange zip and trims help, but having this jacket in red, orange, blue or green would be killer. Once you do put it on, the fit is fantastic. Size up if you’re hiking.
– No bottom cinch. Understandable, but still. An ultra-uber light cincher like the back of the hood would’ve been great.

This jacket is really that good. But color and pit zips would have been nice. I’m not a sponsored hiker and don’t take bribes from companies.

@JustinW

I agree somewhere. They certainly aren’t miracle fabrics, whatever Marketing might claim. But the problem starts already earlier in my eyes: people are being told again and again that you have to prevent getting wet … always. But the underlying mechanism is never told: sometimes getting wet (even soaking wet) is not that bad; as long as you don’t get cold it’s ok. I remember a dayhike where I got soaking wet, but I didn’t worry as I knew I could change into dry clothes when the hike was over and there would be heating in the transport home.

DriDucks/Frog Toggs might be a good, cheap solution, but are not so easy to get here. Like a lot of the stuff that is mentioned here.

@GaryPikovsky

sure, it could be better but as it is designed and tested in a mather of weeks (I read somewhere that designing, testing and making stuff normally takes 18 months or longer, here they just had 12 weeks), we could expect such things,

And they could do other brighter colors as well, but given the short development cycle and color durability worries, I guess they focused for now on the color that immediately showed the biggest promise.

Yeah you need to have it out in heavier non stop rain for a few hours to test out a jacket

its not till after a few hours that everything gets soaked even under a dead bird jacket

the trails will basically be mud pits and lakes at that point

some rain isnt a huge deal, folks walk around i jeans around here for that …. Its when it keep going that things start leaking

my favorite climber partner ruined her iphone yesterday in a dead bird “waterproof” pocket in those conditions

normal PNW conditions this tine of the year

no matter how much you try the moisture WILL get in after a few hours

Thats just the normal trail below, not a stream or swamp

The trail was turning into a creek with mini water falls and a few inches of water

Fortunately its only a day hike and we warmed back up afterwards eating ramen

Keeping dry? … Hahahaha

;)