Advice for prolonged cold/wet/windy conditions – above and below treeline

Well, the OR Helium II will probably wet out in persistent rain (I know from personal experience), so having the 100 wt fleece to wear underneath it will be key to making sure you keep warm while hiking in cold rain.  I would make sure to keep that on your list.

What are you doing for your feet?

A LIGHTWEIGHT GUIDE TO BACKPACKING IN SUSTAINED, COLD RAIN

30s and raining: some suggestions

GEAR SUITED FOR WET, COLD WEATHER HIKING

Learn To Love Backpacking In The Rain

I would think about a 100 wt polartec fleece like the North Face TKA glacier 1/4 zip instead of the R1…If it gets wet it will dry faster.  I recently found one at Bivouac in Ann Arbor for 26 dollars or so!  (Don’t get me wrong, the R1 is a nice piece…I have one, but a regular 100 wt fleece will dry faster because of the lack of spandex…learned this from Dave C and have since been able to see the difference in drying times in the dryer).

You may have a week of sunny weather in May in the Olympics, or solid rain. Consider a light hiking umbrella – excellent complement to rain gear and a tarp. If you’re concerned about the down bag, consider a light weight VBL in combination with a light bivy sack for the ultimate in down moisture protection (camping in fog and mist).

That Bedrock and Paradox read is pretty good. Might consider some silnylon chaps for legs…I’ve been bitten by soaked legs before. Not common but once your crotch is wet, core temp maintenance gets much trickier.

I agree with Rob P. A regular 100wt fleece will dry faster and be lighter. TNF TkA100, Patagonia Micro D, MH Microchill Lite, or even a Lands End 100wt Polartec 100 fleece.

Thanks all, your feedback was super helpful.

For footwear, I’m leaning toward fast-drying trail runners, with neoprene socks brought if needed. Also hoping to bring Atlas Run snowshoes for higher up, with the thought that the snowpack will be pretty consolidated.

The other thing I’m wondering about is stove selection. I’d love to bring my alcohol set-up, but I wonder if I might regret it.

I have not gone in for a canister set-up because of the disposable aspect, so I’m left with a heavy XGK stove as an alternative. The weight difference is around 20 ounces not counting fuel, but I’d hate to be a weight-weenie about it and then find myself needing to melt snow or wanting fast hot drinks at a rest stop, etc.

Guessing I will find liquid water even higher up though?

@mocs123 and @rpjr, I wonder if a grid fleece in the same weight and 100% poly would be better than a traditional fleece?

• a proper rain jacket with good ventilation … The helium will wet out, i have one
• a fuzzy fleece … The fuzzier the better, not grid … In near freezing temps a 200wt is best, warmer a 100 wt is fine
• if its cold goretex socks if u use mesh runners … Use thin liner socks under, bring 2 pairs of liner socks
• cheap fleece gloves with no “windstopper” or such, some folks might want a wpb shell as well
• fuzzy 100-200 wt cheap fleeece hat  … The fuzzier the better, no grid or merino
• the lighest synthetic base layers for quick drying … No grid or merino …. Something like a T1 top and bottoms …. Bring an extra set for sleeping
• proper rain pants …
• A doubled wall tent or a larger tarp …. If you go singled wall make sure you know how to manage the condensation
• with a down sleeping bag you must know how to manage dampness and dry it out with every opportunity … And double bag it for safety … It may be advisable to bring a down bag of a rating a bit higher than normal to compensate for the loft reduction if theres no sun
• bring a light bedsheet with you if it looks like the forecast is for constant rain … Put that bedsheet over the bag at night … If you wake up in the morning and the sheet is a bit damp but yr bag is dry its done its job
• synthetic puffy if yr gonna bring one

Basically plan for eveything you wear to get wet or damp

and plan for condensation in the tent

im making the assumption of constant heavy non stop rain … Not a little sprinkle or shower here and there

;)

I’d consider not doing the alcohol stove… may be heavier with a canister stove but if you need to heat up with some hot liquid you’re gona want it sooner rather than later.

Def have a bag liner.  Realize that parts of this hike might be miserable.  Are you from the NW?  That area gets tons of constant rain… granted you could get lucky with some dry days but plan for all rain, every day.

Again, my advice really is to prepare as if it will pour rain all day everyday, you’ll be glad you did and have a lot more comfortable trip.

I hiked in weather like this recently and nearly got hypothermia.  Don’t be a weight weenie for this one… and if you make mistake by bringing too much you’ll know for next time.

Depending how things go, you may be faced with wet cold clothes in the morning(s). #5 in your OP is applicable. Be mentally and logistically prepared to get out of a warm bag, put on said wet cold clothes, and break camp in the rain, eating and drinking a hot breakfast as you do so.

The mental part on Day 3 can be tough.

one more thing …

if you use a synthetic bag … you dont want to get it truly wet …

but itll deal with dampness and condensation and laugh its head off at you …

not only that you can wring out your synthetic sock and layers, and go to sleep with em in yr synth bag and itll dry out decently by morning (assuming you have a bag that meets or exceeds the temp)

sure they may not last as long as down but then you dont need to baby it either

and in the winter if its slightly oversized you can put it on top of your down bag and again youll laugh at any condensation issues

now you can make down work with the proper skills, just dont screw it up …

but perhaps theres a reason why the great skurka used a MLD spirit synth quilt in his alaska trek

a EE quilt is fairly cheap, for bags the MH hyperlamina spark is EN rated to 32F (men) and weights around 750g … and since they are cheap and durable, you can use em in camp and who cares if they get a bit damp .. any rips and the insulation doesnt go up in a puffball, just use some tape and have a good laugh

read this to see why dem seals (the ones that shoot you, not the cute ones you club) use synth … not merino or down

https://www.sitkagear.com/insight/a-navy-seal-rewarming-drill

;)

nm

Has anyone tried using a light titanium woodstove in a smaller pyramid shelter? Some of them weight less than 2 pounds. I know that sort of thing is normally reserved for snowy winter use but if you have the option of warming up and drying clothes then maybe it is worth the weight. It could sure make a miserable trip tolerable. You could save weight but not bringing a big puffy and not bringing an overkill sleeping bag because you can just warm everything up and dry it out. I’ve never used a stove in a tent before so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

“The helium will wet out, i have one”

Wet out as in the face fabric absorbs water easily or water will penetrate the jacket? I ask because I own one but haven’t used it in prolonged rain.

folks the rain is not miserable … its your attitude, poor equipment and skills that make it “miserable”

rain is a simple fact up here … you deal with it and enjoy it … or you can stay at the sbucks and sip lattes

some very experienced folks have said that hiking in the freezing rain is more challenging than deep winter … i dont know if ill go that far, but like winter its simply a matter of knowing what to do …

and challenging yourself … if you can hike in the freezing PNW rain for a few days, it gives you the absolute confidence in your skills and gear (same with brits in their conditions)

what i always suggest folks do is to take advantage of any rainstorms they get, the heavier the better short of a hurricane … go out and do a short hike or walk, and camp in yr backyard

in the PNW folks commute for hours walking, bus stops, or cycling in the rain … the homeless spend months in tents in the rain or on the street …

if the OP is in boston, he should be able to get plenty of practice with the rain even if its just walking around and camping out in the yard

even folks in sunnyfornia, and sunnyzona should be able to find a rain storm this time of the year

;)

Embrace the wet. Be smart on managing it.

justin ..

dont bother with a stove, just used a synthetic bag … itll be lighter and more useful … you DONT want to deal with wood thats been in the rain for days, nor spend time in the rain collecting it

the helium will wet out to the point where its not very breathable … at which point the very smooth and slick surface will get damp from perspiration …

eventually itll be damp enough where if your not wearing synth layers every will get damp/wet

with some water ingress (most of these UL jackets have minimal coverage) and your base layers, even if synth will get quite damp to wet

now if youre in mild climates, its not a huge deal … you can walk it off and stay somewhat warm with body heat

but if you around freezing with rain, slush, snow and hail … add a bit of wind … yr going hypothermic unless you have a FUZZY fleece (not grid) to put under it …

with a thermal pro fleece youll laugh your head off at the difference it makes

to be fair to the helium many rain jackets will have the same issue

;)

Wet out as in the face fabric absorbs water easily or water will penetrate the jacket? I ask because I own one but haven’t used it in prolonged rain.

Well, the face fabric will eventually absorb water (as do most WPB jackets in this weight class).  Once the face fabric absorbs water (i.e., wets out), it becomes hard to tell if the if moisture inside the jacket is the result of water getting in from the outside, or perspiration being trapped inside.  This is because when the face fabric wets out the breath-ability of the jacket is greatly reduced.  Most likely it is a combination of water seeping through the jacket and body perspiration.

This review suggest that the jacket leaks at the shoulder seam after some use.  This has not been my experience with the jacket and I’ve used it pretty heavily for both backpacking and bike commuting.

nm

Well Eric, I have built fires in the rain before. It can be hard work but worth it sometimes. In the winter months you have lots of time in the dark evenings when you aren’t ready to sleep, so you do have the down time to find some large dry pieces and split them down. If a fire seems mostly certain I will usually put on all my insulating layers over my wet clothes so I stay warm while prepping (important for staying calm and concentrating on the task) and then I stand in front of the fire to dry everything out. By that time my insulating layers have soaked up much of the moisture from my base layers.

A couple years ago we hiked in rain/sleet/snow and everyone got wet. When we got to camp it was fire or sleeping bag, we got a fire going and a miserable group of guys were able to dry out all their clothes and cook food in a warm place.

The problem with this is if it’s precipitating you need to have a tarp set up lean-to to receive warmth from the fire, but the required distance to keep your tarp away from the fire so you don’t get sparks hitting it is not optimal for receiving that warmth unless you make the fire really big which is hard to do when everything is wet. You can stand by the fire in your rain jacket with it zipped open, leaning forward slightly with a baseball cap on which allows you to dry out your top layers without getting wet but it’s not optimal, and your back doesn’t dry out well. You can use an umbrella wearing no rain jacket by the fire which does work well. If the smoke blows towards your tarp you are stuck with smoke in your face unless you walk away from your tarp into the rain. Also if the wind is blowing forget building a fire unless you absolutely have to.

I’m thinking if you can take that fire and put it into a small wood stove in an enclosed shelter that solves all of those issues. You can have a calm fire in a raging windstorm, don’t have to wrestle with precip and fire distance from tarp, and a tiny little fire is easy to prep and it’s easier to torch wet wood with esbit in a small metal box where the heat is contained. That sounds like a good option if you don’t mind the extra weight.

Yes with a synth bag you can dry wet clothes in it much more easily than with a down bag but it’s not really a good substitute for what I’m describing. In my experience external heat is much more effective than internal heat when your body is stressed out.

Also, you can totally crawl into an extra poofy down bag with wet clothes and push all the moisture. Your down bag goes limp but as long as you don’t overwhelm it, it will bounce back. Maybe that doesn’t work in an enclosed tent, I normally use a tarp where there is always some airflow going through.

“with a thermal pro fleece youll laugh your head off at the difference it makes”

Eric, have you seen or used this?

http://melanzana.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/68?osCsid=3fd74b17bbd2556725672a8658c9dc42

I have one, only 13 ounces mens medium and under a wind shell I feel the warmth is comparable to an ultralight down jacket.

this is a typical coastal BC rain forest on a fairly mild rain day this month … and note it had been fairly dry earlier and only started raining about an hour before this vid was taken

and this is just the regular trail … not a creek or stream crossing …

dry wood? … after multiple rain days in a coastal rain forest? …. HAHAHA

you had better be VERY skilled

never mind that provincial parks up here may have additional restrictions on fires and using wood from trees or even the ground even in the shoulder seasons …

<span class=”Apple-style-span”>Also, you can totally crawl into an extra poofy down bag with wet clothes and push all the moisture. Your down bag goes limp but as long as you don’t overwhelm it, it will bounce back</span>

it wont … not with constant freezing rain days, no sun, and 100% humidity … theres no “bounce back” …

in fact under those conditions, even without wet clothes … the loft will gradually decrease every day until every part except for the down thats right next to your body gets damp and goes flat … and the condensation from the tent rubs against the outer as well … usually by the 3rd straight day, if you dont have some sun and wind to dry it out (or the proper techniques), youll need to knock around 10F off yr down bags rating, likely more if you sleep in wet clothes

just leaving your down bag uncovered  (even with no one in it) in yr tent gets it a bit damp from the ground humidity and the mist/fog

theres a BIG difference between constant freezing rain in the winter/shoulder seasons up here … and warmer, more intermittent rain in areas which arent a big rain forest

;)

heres an old blog post by our dear leader on down in nasty environments …

After two nights of this, it became clear that any gear – whether down or synthetic – is going to fail. It’s just a matter of when, and time zero starts at the trailhead.

Just for kicks, we weighed our bags and measured their loft when we got back into town tonight.

Carol was using a Valandre Shocking Blue, which lost almost 20% of its loft for a weight gain of water of around 10%. I was using an Arc X, which only weighs a pound dry, gained 25% of its weight in water (interestingly, about the same weight gain as the Shocking Blue – 4 oz or so), but with far less down to buffer the effect, lost an amazing 80% of its loft.

Neither bag was particularly “flat” this morning – we speculate that the primary mechanism by which so much loft is lost is during packing – stuffing a bag with moisture on its shell into a stuff sack, causing that moisture to migrate into the insulation.

In these conditions, synthetic will delay failure, but not necessarily prevent it. My synthetic jacket, a MontBell Thermawrap Parka, which I wore in camp and on the trail at rest while it was snowing/slushing, gained about 25% of its weight as well, but lost less than 10% of its loft.

And so, if you’re heading out into winter crap, which is about the only term that describes “temperatures near freezing with sustained heavy snow and rain and no opportunity to dry gear”, follow these rules:

1. Down won’t work. Don’t even try to make it work. No waterproof-breathable fabric bivy sack or tent will help. No super breathable system (think: tarp, no bivy) will help. At these temperatures, the dew point will be inside the bag and any moisture in your shelter (bivy, tent, tarp, snow cave, it doesn’t matter) will condense on the outer fabric. You’ll pack your wet bag into a stuff sack in the morning and enjoy the beginning of an absolutely awful night when you unpack it that evening.

2. Synthetics won’t work either. But they at least will allow you to spend an extra night or two.

http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2006/02/down_gear_in_sc/

now i think hes a bit too pessimistic … you CAN make down work with the proper techniques … and you can definitely make synth work for MUCH longer than what he states … homeless bums do so all the time up here

but you need to know and practice the proper moisture management techniques … and have the proper gear

;)