Advice for prolonged cold/wet/windy conditions – above and below treeline

Excellent discussion, guys. You are all helping me embrace the wet…. :)

The Melananza hoody looks super warm, but is 300 weight, I think – looks like it may be overkill for serious movement?

Justin, I like to move fast for good stretches or when the weather necessitates it, so I wonder if the functional range is too narrow with this piece. Does that makes sense given your experience?

Thinking the 200 weight high-loft may be a better match. By the yard, it can be found here – http://www.millyardage.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=4208

I sent a request to As Tucas about making something out of this in their baselayer pattern, which has my favorite features. I’ll see if their quote is reasonable.

I’m thinking of adding an Apex 2.5 over-quilt with head slot on top of my 20F down quilt, so I can bring wet stuff to bed and push the moisture outside the down, etc.

With the head slot I’m hoping to forego a synth jacket for around camp.

Wondering a bit if this combo isn’t overkill, but my only other quilt is 40F down, and I imagine the moisture will degrade the loft somewhat anyway, and that the coldest nights will be higher up on days 2-3.

Also leaning toward bringing a gas stove, because non-refillable canisters aren’t my thing…

Personally id be fine with a 40F bag and an additional 40-50F synth quilt if the temps stayed mostly above freezing even in continuous rain

test it out in the backyard rain for a few days and see if it works for ya

;)

Hey Edward, I bought the melanzana fleece as a stationary layer for super wet weather. I found that in cold wet weather I had to keep moving to stay warm. I like being able to stop and take longer breaks, possibly cook lunch. I don’t like hiking all day long until I set up camp. I wanted something overkill that I could put on over wet clothes during breaks. I layered polyester layers and fleeces in the past but I wanted something more serious. The hoody is ridiculously warm for it’s weight, it feels like wearing 500 weight classic fleece. I need to go a size up in a windshirt to layer over it. If your hiking style isn’t similar to mine then it probably wouldn’t be useful for you.

Eric, good to know. I’ll head to the whites on some rainy weekend and try it out.

Justin, actually I love to both move fast and take longer breaks, So your style seems similar.

FYI, I asked As Tucas to make a deep zip pared down hoody in a highloft polartec that I’ll send for maybe $30 with shipping, and they quoted me $60 shipped. Not too bad for a custom piece! I asked if I could discuss price and put some pics up here of the piece and they said sure, so I’ll post about it after I get it. Luckily a polartec supplier is about an hour away, so I’m going to check out versions of thermal pro sometime soon.

I live and hike in Scotland.

I’d take a double wall tent – the inner with solid (not mesh) walls and ceiling. With a decent porch/vestibule.

I’d use a down sleeping bag plus a breathable lightweight DWR cover – it will reduce dampness from external water ingress but allow at least some evaporation from internal vapour (sweat). Being able to remove the cover to air/dry the SB (if you get the chance) is an advantage.

I’d hike in a Pile/Pertex top (-very ‘old school’ – but works in cool + wet), with a good eVent Hardshell (jacket and pants) for over the top as necessary. In camp, in the tent, I’d change to a layer of down insulation with a lightweight synthetic jacket over the top. One lot of base layers for hiking, a clean/dry set for sleeping. Always keep camp clothes dry. Keep wet clothes out of the sleeping area and in the porch and put them  back on each morning – pretty ‘yucky’ – but you warm up once moving.

Lighting fires with wet wood – I wouldn’t try that unless I had a proper roof over my head.

I cook on alcohol in the cold and wet – but that’s just a personal choice.

Know your ‘bail out’ options.

just to add to what catherine said above …

a double wall solid inner tent will add a solid 10-15F to the temps inside the tent … when BPL tested the laser competition i believe they measured a 17F difference from the outside temps …

a double wall tent is also pretty essential when theres a lot of windblown rain …

plenty of folks will tell you that you should always ventilate your tent, that single walls work fine, always select the best sites … blah blah blah

the reality is that when a storm hits, the site might choose you not the other way around … and you know that “great ventilation” you have? … well in heavy windblown rain it just became a big entry point to get everything wet in a single wall tent/tarp

so what happens is that youll need to button everything up and drop the sides to the ground …. and even then youll still get spray inside if its bad enough … if you have a mesh or no inner, the spray may well hit you

you can read an example below …

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/mld-duomid-condensation/

the other thing is that even without wind and with good ventilation … you can easily still get condensation, from the ground itself if nothing else

think about it for a sec .. the moisture from the ground and from you rise up and hits the cold outer fabric that is cooled by freezing rain … instant condensation !!!

what then happens in heavy rain is that enough condensation will collect that when the rain drops hit the outer, theyll knock off the condensation so it can seem like its sprinkling in the tent … many folks mistake this for “misting” (failure of the HH)

heres the inner of my laser comp after night of moderate nonstop rain .. you can see how the solid inner prevents you from getting wet … make sure your bag has renewed DWR if yr not using a solid inner

so in short a double wall tent with a solid inner

• increases the temp by 10-15F
• prevents windblown rain from getting to you
• prevents the “knock off” condensation from getting to you
• keeps most of the moisture on the outer, the inner might be a bit damp but its much better than rubbing against a wet outer

with some tents the outer can be set up first and this prevents the inner from getting soaked …. you can also store the inner separately keeping it somewhat dry …

and for breaks you can easily setup the outer for lunch, etc …

now im not saying you cant use a tarp or a single wall tent … it just takes much more skill, and youll have limitations

;)

“I have not gone in for a canister set-up because of the disposable aspect, so I’m left with a heavy XGK stove as an alternative.”

Why do only canister stove get penalized for the disposable aspect?  Do you send the alcohol container back to the manufacturer?  White Gas also comes in steel containers, like isobutane, about as much per fuel in quart sizes, albeit a little more efficient in gallon steel containers.  And steel is pretty cheap (i.e. modest energy input) to produce, unlike aluminum and thick plastics.

My advocacy for a canister stove in marginal conditions is based, admittedly,partly on not having became an expert at alky stove operation, but also, when you want heat in a rain storm, you really want it.  Without having to stop the stove to refuel or waste fuel when you need less than a full burn.

And then there’s the greater emergency value in a canister stove: on a sea kayak trip here in Alaska, I (got lucky and) and made a dry landing.  My wife got soaked by a 5-foot breaker than dumped on her just after she’d landed.  There was medium to big drift wood, but no kindling.  Sure, I could have made some, but I simply dug a trench, put the canister stove in it, laid a log cabin of drift wood over it, until it was going well and then reached under the log cabin and extracted the stove.  In 2 minutes there was a roaring fire and a warming wife.

If you might have 4 solid days of rain, I’d suggest (1) being in good enough shape to keep moving all day to stay warm and keep your clothing moist instead of soaked.  I’ve certainly done more miles each day sometimes and ended a trip a day earlier when the weather turned nasty.  And (2) having enough shelter and layers so that if you got laid up by a twisted ankle that you could stay warm while immobile.

A few people have mentioned a good double skin tent. Others seem to have ignored this.
My 2c is that a good double-skin bomber tent is actually of paramount/primary importance. It SOLVES most of the other problems. Inside such a tent you can dry out, dry your SB and clothing, cook lots of hot food and drinks, all in considerable comfort. Sure, there may be condensation on the inside of the fly, but the DWR on the inner tent lets that roll off. Of course, then you have to ask what IS a ‘good double-skin bomber tent’. Many of you will know my reply: a nice 2 or maybe 3-man tunnel. That is the voice of very long hard experience.

Sigh: there are NO such tents made in America (that I know of). Try the Macpac Olympus or a 3-pole Hilleberg. Sigh more: $$$.

Tarps do not hack high winds. Wood fires – OK for a hut maybe, but when hiking in wet weather – snerk.

Cheers

I use a 100 wt fleece (not grid) under my rain jacket.  I wouldn’t go heavier or you will cook while walking.  The 100 wt will keep the clammy/wet feeling away from your base layer.

Use dry bags for your down bag and puffy jacket/clothes.  I use two and here’s why…

My down bag is in a dry bag until I’m ready to roll it out and climb in.  Don’t roll your bag out when you set up your tent, remember you are in 100% humidity and your bag will absorb moisture if it’s sitting in your tent.

The only “heater” you have is your body.  So with that in mind, as soon as you crawl out of your “warm” bag in the morning, immediately stuff it into your dry bag.  The heat from your body will keep your bag dry, so stuff the bag back into the dry bag while your down bag is still warm.

The exception to this is, as mentioned above, when the dew point is inside the tent and condensation is forming on the bag.  As Eric points out, in this situation, you need a layer on top of the bag so that the condensation doesn’t collect on the bag.  I take a Montbell sleeping bag cover for these situations or will throw my fleece or any other clothing items over my bag if it starts to get damp from condensation.

The second reason for the dry bags is to prevent condensation in your shelter.  Everything that is wet goes in a dry bag.  I then use the dry bag as my pillow.  This is a real advantage if you are getting night time freezing temps because your wet gear won’t freeze overnight.

Gortex socks are a must in these conditions if you are wearing mesh shoes.  Walking wet is fine (I don’t walk in the gortex socks) but after setting up camp, I bring out a dry pair of liner socks and put the gortex socks over them and then put my wet shoes back on.  Really nice to have dry/warm feet in camp.

“Sigh: there are NO such tents made in America (that I know of)”

But there certainly were in the past.

You could always hunt down a vintage TNF Westwind. One could probably find a 20 year old one for about $100, and still squeeze an enormous amount of value out of it – especially for shoulder season trips. And, you could always have a new fly cut at http://www.tentrepairservices.com/ if the tent body is still in good shape.

“Sigh: there are NO such tents made in America (that I know of)”

Not made in the USA and not a bomber tunnel tent but my Big Agnes Slater is a good 3 season compromise.  It’s a true double wall with a good DWR on the inner tent that works as Roger described (shedding condensation).  Much warmer than the semi solid inner tent in my Tarptent Notch.

Hi Mike

The pics of the tent are not helpful: when you open the door fully does the rain fall on the groundsheet, or is that back inside far enough?

Cheers

one note is that trekking pole tents/tarps are actually pretty useful in the rain

something like a mid or sl2 style shelter is storm proven … and for stops just peg it out and put the pole up, easy as apple pie … eat lunch under cover or wait out the worse rain

keep the inner separate and only set it up in the evening

if bears are an issue some folks bring a 5×8 tarp and set it up for a cooking/eating area away from the tents … you can also use this for quick stops … and use it in the evening as a grounsheet (crawling into your tent on yr hands and knees in the mud sucks) … if its a poncho tarp it also serves as insurance against rain jacket failure

of course none of this is truly UL .. but trust me when yr soaked to the bone UL is the furthest thing in yr mind …

not to mentions your pack (unless waterproof) and clothing will likely absorb enough water to throw the gram counting way off

;)

“of course none of this is truly UL .. but trust me when yr soaked to the bone UL is the furthest thing in yr mind …”

right on.

UL = BPS at that time, in one’s hypothermic mind.

And once again, it is important to remind us all when we choose to go gallantly treading into the cold/wet/humid season…

To spend as just much time and energy thinking about the gear which will assist us in drying off as we do with the gear that tries to keep us from getting wet. There’s 8 million threads on wpb’s and the like on this forum, yet probably a few on the “how to dry off”.  Maybe it’s just too common sense, but it shouldn’t be forgotten about.

Bringing a towel or a sponge on trips like this might be a good start. Or two if it’s gonna be that wet: one that gets wet all the time, and the other one stashed near the dry stuff. A thin bed sheet or liner over the sleeping bag perhaps? Something to help absorb and redistribute all the moisture?

It works.

…when you open the door fully does the rain fall on the groundsheet, or is that back inside far enough? <<

Yes, if you open the door up completely, rain can fall inside the bath-tub floor.  I’ve heard people complain about this but it’s not been an issue for me (and I live in a rainy area).  I’ve used this style of shelter for 15 years (SL1, Fly Creek and now a Slater) and never had a problem.  If you don’t completely unzip the door, the rain doesn’t get in (simple solution to resolve a poor design issue)

When it’s pouring out, I’m in rain gear with soaking wet shoes.  I open the door most of the way (enough to stand in the vestibule area) and take off my shoes, rain jacket and rain pants and jump into the tent (I can easily get in with the door only partially open).  I then empty my first dry bag and stuff my clothes in it (my base layer and pants) and switch into dry clothes.  I then stuff my soaking wet rain jacket, rain pants and shoes into the second dry bag and bring them inside as well (prevents the garments from freezing and stops condensation from wet clothes).  Then I roll out my sleeping bag and jump in.  Works for me.

I see that Big Agnes has changed the door on some of their shelters (vertical door) to address the issue.

Building a fire in wet weather is not ridiculous provided that you are in a closed or semi closed canopy, there is minimal wind, and you have a shelter system that allows you to receive warmth from the fire.

Here is from a trip a couple years ago. It had been raining/sleeting/snowing for a few days with overnight freezes, everything was wet or frozen.

First you want to find some wood that is not on the ground, preferably vertical. In this case I found a small dead tree that had started to fall over but caught on another tree’s branch, so it was vertical but disconnected from the ground. Wrist size diameter is good.

We split it down into dry fuel with a small folding saw and mora fixed blade knife. We used some bigger split pieces as temporary platform to insulate from the ground.

Enjoying the warmth and drying out. Notice the forward leaning pose to shield my upper body, there was melting slush falling down off the trees.

Later we set up some tarps that we could stand under if it started precipitating hard.

I’m saying that it’s worth it for the OP or anyone else to go out and do this, I’m making a point that a fire can be practical and useful in certain wet weather conditions.

A few times I have dried everything out, saving myself from a miserable sleepless night, by setting up my tarp lean-to style, building a fire, and laying in my sleeping bag. This is with damp down insulation. The fire + my body heat dries everything out fine. You may get a pinhole somewhere in your gear.

its not raining hard in yr pics ….

good luck building a fire in 20-50mm+ continuous freezing rain days while its actually raining heavily in an actual temperate rain forest (if there isnt wet slimy moss completely covering every rock and every dead tree its not one) … especially when your cold, soaked, and possibly near hypothermic

never mind once you get above the treeline or add a good bit of wind it all goes out the window

not saying it cant be done … but it aint california

if you want to “harness” the power of fire just bring a HAWT nalgene and extra fuel … and use a synth bag … you wont get pin hole or smoke in yr $$$$ bag/quilt and youll dry off synth/fleece layers pretty well

;)

Yes, above the treeline with wind there is no point.

It was not preciping hard when those photos were taking, it was raining/sleeting steadily all day earlier that day and preciped some more that night. It was wet enough that the insides of vertical wood was damp, but you can compensate with good firestarter like esbit.

I have built a fire in very hard rain, hard enough to put a fire out. It’s not easy but you can do it. First you process wood under your tarp to keep the split stuff dry. When you are laying out your fire, you set pieces so they are suspended above the fire to protect it. At the same time that wood is getting dried out. I like to create a sort of lean-to of wood hovering over the fire from behind without putting any wood between me and the fire.

You can also build a small fire directly under a tarp if you pitch the tarp above head height. You might get a pinhole in your tarp, you can use cheap tarps and duct tape, also in my experience if your tarp is wetted out sparks won’t put holes in it as the water will cool it off.

I have never been to the pnw but I’ve seen lots of pnw trip reports from bushcraft forums of people building fires in the pnw.

I also hear you can find lots of fatwood up there.

My point is not that you should build fires in wet conditions, or even that it it’s the most practical thing to do, my point is that it is possible to do and it can be useful.

let me be absolutely blunt here …

when you absolutely most need a fire is when youll be least able to build it … soaking wet, raining heavily, with the wind blowing, near freezing and possibly in the dark

ive seen folks go hypothermic in the winter rains up here … they could barely unzip their rain jackets and get into a a tent, never mind build a fire

this isnt some occasional heavy thunderstorm were taking about, the BC coast is famous for continuous rain and drizzle where everything gets absolutely soaked including everything under your WPB breathable layers if youre out long enough … add strong coastal winds and folks start going hypothermic

to believe that you an ALWAYS build a fire under these conditions is an very dangerous fallacy

while there are ways to get dry wood, namely stripping the inner bark off trees … it isnt always practical or legal …. not to mention alot of the dead wood sitting around in a rain forest up here is so rotten that its pretty useless

i want to re-emphasize this again when you need heat/warmth in the freezing rain after being soaked and chilled to the bone for hours you NEED it NOW, you cant spend the time trying to look for the materials

you may well have barely enough energy or warmth to set up a tent and you bag … and crawling into it before shutting down … never mind trying to take all the steps to find, cut and dry out your wood

and you must to be able to do this regardless of whether youre above or below the treeline, and regardless of wind (again when youll need it most)

if you fail … youre dead

thats all there is to it

heres a case in MUCH milder conditions, fortunately no BPL deaths involved

https://backpackinglight.com/ihike_hypothermia/

I’m not saying you should ever rely on building a fire for your survival, im just saying it can be a useful skill for comfort and drying out gear in the right situation, in addition to all of the other wet weather skills.

Hypothermia is my #1 fear in the backcountry. I flirted with hypothermia once on an icy ridge on the california central coast at 4k feet. My feet were numb and turning red and I had no dry socks. I had a hard time concentrating on anything and I just wanted to curl up and sit there. For some reason I had this feeling like I could possibly die, which was ridiculous considering the safety net of gear and a partner that I had. It probably got down into the teens with wind at night. I was using a 35 degree synth bag that was getting flat from too much use. Luckily I was with a friend and he got the shelter going, got a small fire going, and I borrowed his sleeping bag to warm up my feet. I wore about 7 or 8 layers of clothing, some of it borrowed from my friend, including some safeway grocery bags improvised as vapor barrier socks. I warmed up just fine but it was still a very harsh learning experience.

I’m wondering if the proper fleece layer might help me avoid getting chilled in the first place. But I’m not sure how lofty it should be. I want something light enough to move in if I’m soaked, but warm enough to stave off a chill.

My question is, what weight of thermal pro could I add to a cap 4 hoody baselayer, 2012 houdini, OR Helium II, and a 3oz tyvek jacket I’d like to try possibly under the windshirt at times.

At Extrem Textil, the lightest higher loft Thermal Pro comes in 180g 5-6mm thickness, the heavier stuff up to 280g 1cm thickness, and I could get an even loftier, furrier version here in the states.

Check out for instance the fabric here, they have a very furry 200? weight thermal pro, and the warehouse is within driving distance of Boston.

Ideally, I want a fleece I can wear on the move, so I’m thinking the 180gm2 makes more sense – a bit less weight than a Pata R2, made into a hoody cut like the R1, but loftier and without spandex.

Wondering whether with this thinner thermal pro, I should still bring an Apex vest, or another additional layer for breaks?

Shelter-wise, I’m likely going to stick with my Zpacks Solo plus – it’s fast to set up, well ventilated, very light, and has withstood serious winds for me. I’ve been dry enough with it in day-long, fairly heavy rain before. Tying a polycryo groundsheet tight to the corners creates something of a bathtub floor too, and you can easily wipe the walls with a cloth and squeeze it out on the mesh floor. Also my synthetic overbag will help with any excess moisture. Hoping I’ll have a chance to get to the Whites in some wet weather to test my setup beforehand.

A fleece will prevent you from getting chilled

without one if its cold and wet (never mind windy) once your layers get soaked youll need to keep moving faster just to keep warm (like in the link i posted above), which isnt always possible in technical terrain

i usually start off without the fleece under a rain jacket and only put it on if i move slower or get soaked …. Youll know when you need it

what fleece i bring depends on the conditions …. From left to right in the photo above

• EB cloud polartec micro fleece …. For > 50F or when used in conjuction with other insulation … 290g  total weight
• dead bird covert thermal pro … The go to for colder temps, dries very quickly and even when wet feels merely damp, just wring it out … Can still be used when active and moving slowly …The minimum id consider as stand alone insulation in milder rainy temps … Used with down/synth poofay fine for near freezing … 425g
• MEC incumbent high loft thermal pro … The “bomber”  fleece …. if the rain is not too heavy i can wear this without a rain jacket and still feel no worse than slightly damp, the body heat easily pushes out the moisture … The jacket can be absolutely soaked and youll still laugh yr head off, ive stood under the shower and didnt really feel wet … For the nastiest wet conditions  … Also quite wind resistant …. 775g

a hint is to make sure you fleece can go over a very thin down vest or jacket like a MB EXL …. You can actually manage the moisture away from the down and even dry out damp (not wet) down this way

a fleece is one of the most cost effective investments you can make … you can wear it daily in the city, at home, working in the yard, etc  … ive worn the dead bird and MEC fleeces daily and sleep in em for the last 8-10+ years … and they still work just fine

in fact what will probably go is the zipper …. since yr getting a custom fleece get a YKK#5 zipper, dont accept anything less

youll get many years and perhaps decades of constant use out of it

;)

Zpacks Hexamid Solo plus. – I wouldn’t use that in wet and windy Scotland.  There may be folks who do, but I’ve never seen/heard of anyone.

The most popular single skin shelter for windy/wet in UK is the MLD Trailstar.

+1 on what Eric had to say. These are the conditions and the places I grew up in. You may get warm clear weather too, but you do need to prepare for days of drizzle and high humidity in cool temperatures. On the south/west side of the the Olympics, you may just get cool days with little fits of rain or a rarer full-on deluge. You can drive around to the NE corner in the rain shadow and find little rain. Micro-climates!

What you can’t rely on is full sun for drying things out. Overcast is the expectation, even it if isn’t raining. There was a boy from Forks, Washington who went to Disneyland with his dad. After a few hours of rides, his dad asked him what he thought of Disneyland. The boy replied, “Gee, Dad, the rides are fun, but what is that hot bright thing in the sky?”

• Do get a rain jacket with more ventilation, or a good poncho with a back extension.
• I use synthetic insulation all-round and fleecy mid layers. But there is no way I would be hiking with rain gear and 100w fleece in May. With 45f-50f and 80-90% humidity conditions, you aren’t really cold but there is nowhere for the sweat to “go.”  My “drizzle uniform” is cap2 or cap 3 base layer with windshirt/poncho or rain shell. If it is going to be a cold gray day, I wear silkweight base layer with my rain pants.
• I could see needing light fleece layer above timberline with cold wind and moving slowly. Fleece vests and rain gear can be a nice combo.
• I expect to sweat out my base layer top. If it is rain gear all the time, a spare is good. If you do have a light fleece, you could just wear that in camp while trying to dry out your base layers. You must have dry stuff when you stop. 45f is warm when walking uphill with a load and cold as the depths of Hell when you are wet and you stop moving and there is no sun. This is where people get in trouble.
• The fleece or puffy comes out for rest stops and camp. Fleece adds to sleeping gear very well.
• Find some good waterproof but light gloves. I have an older version of the Mountain Hardwear Plasmic Outdry gloves, that have a rain-gear like shell with a tricot liner. Something with a waterproof shell and removable light liner glove would be perfect.
• A light fleece beanie is a good thing. The Seattle Sombrero rain hat is great if you don’t like hoods
• If it is going to be wet the whole time, afford one more pair of socks. Spring run-off can turn trails into waterfalls and it ain’t pretty. Where I like a light very breathable low top shoe in the summer, I go for light waterproof mid high boots for the sloppy stuff.

As far as rain being miserable, yeah sure sometimes, but there are 1000 kinds of rain and in the forests you can watch the earth breathe, with wisps of clouds forming in the tree tops right over your head. It feeds the streams and rivers all around, with running water as your soundtrack. The light is silver and shadowless. And if you haven’t walked a northern rain forest, the biomass will blow you away: it is a cool jungle with stuff growing everywhere.

May can be warm and nice too. I’ve seen 80f days in May many times. May you be blessed with sunshine :)

If you want some great info on playing in the Olympics, check out Barefoot Jake’s blog at http://www.barefootjake.com/

“embrace the wet”…or…avoid the rain. I like Mojave desert. I wouldn’t go there in July. I wonder if May is the best month to visit the Olympic rain forest ( I assume you mean the Hoh, and then on up to Mount Olympus). Hey HOYH. this whole thread has become about how to deal with hypothermia and wicked long wet conditions. Why not try to avoid these conditions in the first place? go someplace with better odds of good weather.