A few questions to those who carry a gun while hiking/backpacking

[jscott]

JImmyjam, why did you carry?

[jimmyjam]

Jeffery, I was hiking in an area where there have been several murders over the years. Its not the animals that I fear.

[Jenny A]

Donna C., I am a female who often hikes and backpacks alone.  I have my CCW permit and bought a gun specifically to carry on backpacking trips(a Ruger LCRx), but in all honesty I never have taken it for the following reasons:

(1)  it’s not going to do any good unless you are wearing it where you can reach it quickly, and it interferes with my backpack straps and hipbelt;

(2) it is heavy;

(3) I have never felt threatened by a human in the backcountry…frontcountry, yes;

(4) if large animals are a concern, a small caliber handgun is not going to be effective unless you are a pretty skilled marksperson;

(5) If you are carrying a gun, you had better darn well keep it with you at all times, no leaving it in the tent while you go for a short hike;

(6)  If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  In other words, if your gun is the answer to anything perceived as a threat, then it is more likely to get used whether warranted or not.  That is personal opinion.

I do carry bear spray in Yellowstone and the northern Rockies, and while “illegal” to use against humans, I wouldn’t hesitate to let someone have a canful if I felt in danger.  I have decided that if I did feel like I wanted a product for self-defense, I would carry a small canister of mace on my hipbelt.

Not exactly what you asked, but some ideas worth considering perhaps.  As others have mentioned, if you think you might want to carry a firearm, you need to take some classes and practice A LOT.  There is a relatively new organization called “The Well-Armed Woman” that has chapters in many states and provides a great supportive environment for female shooters.  Good luck.

 

[MJ H]

Guns from major manufacturers are heavy and nobody sells a striped-down ultralight pistol that I’m aware of. Obviously, there should be MYOG thread about zip guns. The barrel could be double use because if it’s also the handle of your potty trowel.

[Jenny A]

One other thought:  many of the small, light guns that you would actually consider taking backpacking are not very much fun to shoot over and over during practice.

[Gary Dunckel]

But a 9 mm Glock is rather light, and I talked with an archery hunter that told me he once took out an angry black bear with one, but it took 5-6 well-placed shots to do that.

[Ryan Smith]

I carried a Ruger LCP .380 for one weekend trip with my wife. Carried it in my right hipbelt pocket. Super small and light. Didn’t even know it was there.

As soon as we hit the trail I instantly regretted it. By taking it along, the chances of my wife or I getting shot went up by about 500%. And what great threat was out there that I needed to take that risk? Yeah, nothing.

Ryan

[Ralph Burgess]

“Obviously, there should be MYOG thread about zip guns.”

Didn’t Bob Moulder have a thread showing how to build a trebuchet from a hiking pole, parts of the agave plant and the elastic from your underpants?

[Sean P]

Questions from a non-American: a. does bear repellant work on humans and b. What about a non lethal human repellant like pepper spray?

 

i mean what threat is out there where a handgun is the answer?

[Donna C]

For those who didn’t see my other post about classes…yes, I would certainly take classes before anything and it will allow me to see if I would still be afraid of guns. In all honesty, this has been a good forum to help toss up ideas. For me, I have never had any reason to carry. But…I think it would be very beneficial for my own sake to learn properly so if my friends do carry and need me ( for whatever reason) to use their gun, I can.  Bear spray or pepper spray would be better option.  I try not to live through other people’s fears. Many friends freak when I go solo.

I might find that shooting in a shooting range or with other women in a club might be a hell of a lot of fun!!

[Lester Moore]

For me, I have never had any reason to carry.

Great post. It would be good to hear from BPL’ers in what areas they would consider carrying in the lower 48. Never saw a reason in CO, WA, UT and WY. A friend of mine has expressed interest in backpacking in the Absaroka Beartooth Wilderness of Montana. He knows a long-term resident who fishes in that area, and it sounds like a good place to carry, along with bear spray. Another area I’ve heard reports of security issues (two leggeds, not four) is the Ozark Highlands Trail – another potential destination close to some of our family.

I might find that shooting in a shooting range or with other women in a club might be a hell of a lot of fun!!

After researching the whole topic of firearms recently, my wife and I went to the local range with a friend to try out a few different calibers from .22 to .308 to see what it was like. It was fun, and my wife is quite the good shot (better than I was).

[Tony Wong]

It really is nice to see a civil conversation about guns here that also addresses Donna’s concerns and questions.

Best part of BPL is people sharing the hard won knowledge with others.

Plus, I am getting to learn something new about another possible aspect of backpacking.

Tony

[David Thomas]

Questions from a non-American: a. does bear repellant work on humans and b. What about a non lethal human repellant like pepper spray?

Sean: Yes, bear spray works on both bears and humans.  It’s only *supposed* to be carried for threats from wildlife, but, hey, in pinch. . .   The pepper spray designed for humans are in MUCH smaller containers.  I’m not sure how much of that is a legal requirement and how much of it is a practicality since much of the market is female joggers.  But bear spray’s larger volume of pepper solution, longer spray time, much bigger cloud of spray, and longer range all seem like advantage if you ever had to use it against any mammal.

And, like firearms, different jurisdictions (states, cities, different types of federal lands) have their own laws and regulations about the possession and use of human- and bear spray.  You CAN NOT carry any pepper spray onto into (scheduled flights of a jet) airplane.  You can only check one 4-fluid-ounce container of mace or pepper spray in your checked baggage, so that’s the human stuff, not any bear spray.  i.e. you can’t fly with bear spray.  I’ve loaned some of mine to BPLers passing through Alaska, or you can buy some up at REI, Sportsman’s Warehouse or Walmart (probably at Safeway, too) in Anchorage or Fairbanks.  Or call your lodging – we loan it to our AirBnB guests (since so many in the past have had to leave it behind).

Bear spray is 12-16 ounces plus a 4-ounce holster, so that’s 1 to 1.3 pounds.

A loaded 9mm Glock 17 is right at 2 pounds plus holster for 2.3 pounds, but is marginal for black bears (remember, you’re not hunting it, it’s hunting or charging you so everything happens very fast) and completely inadequate for grizzlies / brown bears / polar bears.  And the most common handgun carried for grizzlies (still inadequate, but less so), a S&W Model 629 6″ barrel in .44 magnum has a loaded weight of 48 ounces + holster so 3.4 pounds or so.  And it’s only a 6-shot, so you probably have 1 or 2 speed loaders along.

An actual bear-defense gun – 12-gauge with rifled slugs, say a Mossberg 500 with a shorter barrel, plus sling, loaded would be 5.6 pounds.  Rifles in .338 Lapua are at least 6 to 7 pounds and are easier to shoot (but harder to carry, duh) at 10-11 pounds.  As one BPLer found, when I told him to shoot a bear at 12 yards, is you can’t use your scope – all you see is fur.  So if you’re just carrying it for protection, leave the scope off and practice with your fixed iron sights.

But, back to Sean’s second Q: The research indicates that outcomes are better for the human (and vastly better for the bear) with pepper spray than a firearm.  Stephen Herrero, PhD and his co-authors have studied ALL the bear attacks and incidences throughout North America over the last century.   They crunch the data and publish peer-reviewed studies.  And have a book out aimed at the general public.

So, if your concern is only bears, then pepper spray is (1) cheaper, (2) lighter, (3) more effective in reducing human injuries in bear encounters, (4) better for the bears, (5) non-fatal if mis-used or used against you, (6) seems to me less of a robbery target – is someone going to rob me of my $45 bear spray or my $500-$1000 Glock / .44 ? (because in that scenario, they drew first).  For me, lots of the same logic would apply if your concern is a different species of omnivore (e.g. the two-legged ones).

[jscott]

Sadly, this is another way that women have justifiably more concern from 2 legged threats than men in the wilderness. I wonder, if one’s concerns are with other people and not wildlife, wouldn’t mace be the better option in most (all?) respects? Lighter,easier to carry at all times, more reliably deployed, effective in disabling an attacker, less likely to accidentally harm the carrier.

[Donna C]

This has me thinking that carrying mace may be a good solution. I used to carry mace made to use on dogs when I was big into cycling and used it several times on the creatures. It worked very well. Stopped them in their tracks. But like any spray, you better hit the target and not you!

 

[BlackHatGuy]

Why not do both! :-)

[Nick B]

That is absolutely a viable option. It certainly requires less skill/training to deploy effectively and has less lethal consequences for negligent use.

I will point out that pepper spray is not entirely incapacitating to all people. The military trains all new recruits to function while exposed to CS gas, which is not the same as pepper spray but produces similar reactions. I have accidentally dosed myself while testing a new can of bear spray (near a lake, wind suddenly shifted). It was extremely unpleasant and I have no wish to do it again, but I was still able to function, albeit, at a greatly diminished level.

Plus, the effects of pepper spray are going to wear off in 10-20 minutes. [edit: Google says the more violent effects last from 15-30 minutes and the lesser effects from 30-120 minutes.]

I’m not saying one is better than the other. In my opinion, there is no one tool that works best for all scenarios all the time. That’s why police carry multiple options on their belts.

One more point: in my experience, most nasty, criminal types are also lazy. I find that the likelihood of running into them greatly diminishes the further you get from a trailhead.

[Sean P]

Thanks, David, for your considered and informative reply.

 

[Tim Marshall]

I am a CCW guy, but I don’t carry in the wilderness. If I was concerned with the possibility of a human threat I would carry my Diamondback 380, it’s about the lightest pistol you can carry, similar to a LCP or P3AT. With a Bora2 pocket holster is will disappear in a front pocket. I often carry this as a backup weapon for daily us. Guns are used 3M times each year in self defense with only 30K gun deaths a year (65% of those are suicide, and most of the rest are gang related). I like those numbers, it means just having a gun can stop a violent attack without firing a shot the vast majority of the time. I would not carry pepper spray for a human threat, it has no lethal option, sometimes the bad guy just needs to die so you can live. With a gun you have both lethal, you shoot them, and non lethal, you present the gun and the bad guy runs away. However never carry a gun you are not willing to use. If you present and the attack continues you need to fire the gun with shots on target to end the treat. If you present and the attack continues but you don’t fire your gun it will likely be taken and perhaps used on you. Only carry if you’re willing to take it all the way if needed. That said I don’t carry in the wilderness as everyone I meet out there is awesome, in town, I’m armed to the teeth;)

-Tim

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Dixie,

I own 3 handguns, two of them small and light enough for me to consider carrying on a backpack trip – though I have done this only once, with my wife a d 2 teenage daughters along.

For you, a 65 year old woman, I recommend that you learn how to use a proper handgun AND carry it.

A very light .38 Special revolver from say Tarus or Ruger, or the.380 auto cartridge in the Ruger LCs pistol would be my recommendations. There are lighter .380 auto pistols but the LCs is heavy enough and the .380 auto cartridge small enough to tame the recoil for you. Use nothing less than a .380 auto cartridge for your own safety.

Learn to shoot it and PRACTICE every few months for the ability to use it with “muscle memory” in a panic situation when you have no time to think about things like taking the safety off and proper grip.

And get good instruction in how to shoot and WHEN to shoot. This is paramount.

And learn to carry the pistol or revolver WITH you every time you leave the house. It’s that important. Just ask a cop why they carry when off duty.

[jscott]

I’m 64, have never owned a gun and never needed one. Not once. And I live in an urban area.

If you’re a person who is always venturing into dangerous areas of the city, or who likes to seek out meth labs in rural America, I suppose you might want to carry. I simply avoid such situations.

I disagree with the advice given to carry a weapon at all times, and to devote a large portion of your life to learning to use a weapon. I wouldn’t want to live with such unnecessary fear. I would advocate just the opposite. Cops wear guns because they go looking for trouble–even so, they rarely use them. Avoid trouble and relax. Most of us don’t need to carry a weapon to just walk out the door. That’s a needlessly fearful view of life.

[Arthur]

After 46 posts, i am still waiting to hear of one story where a gun has helped someone on the trail backpacking. If they are out there, it would enlighten all of us and give us a better idea of what to carry.  My other bad habit is cave diving.  We have a saying about bringing extra gear to cover extremely low possibility problems.  “It’s like carrying a 5 gallon can of gasoline on the front seat of the car in case you run out of gas.”  As far as the bad human risk, i heard a woman say that she never camps where she can see or hear roads or motors.  Bad humans are generally too lazy to hike very far.  Interesting concept.

 

[Cameron M]

EDIT

[Ryan Jordan]

@satori wrote: “A friend of mine has expressed interest in backpacking in the Absaroka Beartooth Wilderness of Montana. He knows a long-term resident who fishes in that area, and it sounds like a good place to carry, along with bear spray.”

This is the home are for the Wilderness Adventures Program, and I can’t imagine a “need” to carry a gun here.

Grizzly density is low where we do the BPL treks, but higher in the rest of the range, especially along the N, E, and S borders of YNP, and of course, in YNP. I’ve seen a lot of (grizzly) bears here in the past 25 years. Charged by a few of them. Discharging bear spray repelled one, holding up the can and / or waving my hands and yelling like a madman repelled the rest! Such is the nature of being an introvert and having a passion for bushwhacking.

I’ve owned guns but am not super passionate about hunting, defense from grizzly attacks, or self-defense, and am not up to date on guns. However, The Kel-Tec P3AT (.380) is one of the most remarkable little weapons I’ve ever seen or used, and it’s kind of mind-blowing what you can do with something so light. I might lean that direction if I was looking for something for “ultralight self-defense”. Of course, something like this is useless against a grizzly bear probably, but I like my odds with bear spray better (or a shotgun).

But back to the subject at hand, which seems to be based on some amount of fear, and the low probability that something bad will happen.

I think I’d lean away from carrying a gun, especially if I had a fear of them. And if I felt like I needed one, I’d get really intimate and comfortable and “not fearful” of them before I actually carried one on a regular basis.

[BlackHatGuy]

“And if I felt like I needed one, I’d get really intimate and comfortable and “not fearful” of them before I actually carried one on a regular basis.”

This is the same reasoning I use which keeps me single….

[Author]

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