LEAVE NO TRACE

Going back to Jared Diamond. I kind of remember him theorizing that most of the Native American Populations were killed off in plagues brought by early European visitors and that the societies that the early settlers found were survivors of a catastrophe. Native cultures and civilizations had changed drastically from the time of Columbus to the founding of Jamestown. No one knows what happened to the Mound Builders in the Midwestern states. There is no history there, nothing passed down, they were just gone. Think of what the plagues did to Europeans in middle ages. 50% of the population wiped out from one disease. Now, picture a culture that was ravaged by several different diseases over a period of a few years. Total cultural reset.

There was also a theory I read a few years ago about some of the early migrations from Asia and the reason we can find no evidence is the fact that the land masses were covered in ice and ocean levels were much lower so potential campsites and migration routes along the coast are now covered in water.

I try to practice minimum impact hiking, meaning my trash gets packed out, waste gets buried, no fires are lit outside of fire rings. I try to stay on the trail and walk on rocks if I have to step off the trail.

One of the reasons fires are so frowned upon is that they sterilize the soil and destroy any organic matter. It takes hundreds of years for the campfire site to finally be overgrown. Forest fires, by comparison, are fairly quick and don't sterilize the soil to such a degree.

Are native people beyond Leave No Trace? The National Park Service seems to think so. Maybe they recognize that in morality and ethics, principles supersede following the letter of the law?

— Quote
In blatant noncompliance (or perhaps misinterpretation) of its own leave no trace policy, national park managers have been allowing Native Americans to harvest wild plants and roots from parks, according to a letter from the Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER) submitted to the Department of the Interior in August. The letter, which requested Interior conduct a formal investigation into “extensive violations to federal regulations,” cited several cases of illegal wildcrafting – the practice of gathering wild plants from their native habitat – in Zion, Bryce and Pipe Springs national parks. It also pointed to a 2009 incident in Yosemite, where the acting superintendent told some Indians that they could “take any plant they wished and did not need either a permit, or to report what or how much they had taken.”

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…one NPS Director Jon Jarvis doesn’t seem willing to sweep under the rug. He’s called the agency’s restrictions on Indian harvesting “wrong,” and vowed to repeal them. “It became a mission of mine to fix this,” he told Cherokee officials during a meeting in July. “Now that I’m director, I’m in a position to fix it.”
— End Quote

Harvesting wild plants sustainably and responsibly is not a leave no trace issue.

If it is, then maybe we should kill off all of the deer out there eating plants. And you know deer make their own use trails!?!? Those disrespectful trace leaving animals!

"Sustainably" is the key issue. Which pretty much means "don't take too much in a given period of time". Allowing private individuals to harvest freely from public lands without regulation is not a good plan when the population is large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Unregulated harvesting of public resources works only when the population is small relative to the resources available, and Native Americans are not somehow magically exempt from this arithmetic. In the case of wild plants, it may simply be that so few people are interested in harvesting them that it won't be a problem. But I don't think that can be taken for granted.

I do a little bit of (novice) foraging and you see edible berries all along popular hiking trails. I don't think many people know or care about wild edibles.

"edible berries"

I will be making great progress along the trail until I see a bush of ripe Sierra Currants. If they are really ripe, I will be halted for twenty minutes while I fill up a ziplock bag. Then in camp, I mash those with sugar and stew them for a while. It makes a fun fruit topping for your oatmeal at breakfast.

The only trick is in harvesting them before the black bears get there.

Yes, Leave No Trace. Leave No Trace of the Currants.

–B.G.–

Hah, me too Bob. It will really annoy your non-foraging hiking partners if they wait up for you.

This is from bubs creek

I really like those spiky gooseberries. A pain to cut open, but kinda reminds me of pomegranate.

I also like grabbing a stalk of elderberry and munching on it while hiking.

My hiking buddy just looks at me while I forage wild blueberries. After awhile, she joins in. Can make for a nice diversion while hiking over ledges to find a patch of blueberries that everyone else has passed by.

My biggest problem with LNT.org is how they want to separate humans from nature. Like outside is an exhibit or something. Where are the velvet ropes?

Thanks Ped, if that is your name, for judging everyone.

Try chatting with a hardcore LNT "Master Educator" some time. Oh, I'm sure there are some who are decent human beings who like nature, but the ones I've interacted with seem more like confused human beings who think nature is better than us, and who believe you shouldn't be allowed to step out of the parking lot before going through at least a 48-hour intensive LNT training course.

"Unregulated harvesting of public resources works only when the population is small relative to the resources available, and Native Americans are not somehow magically exempt from this arithmetic. In the case of wild plants, it may simply be that so few people are interested in harvesting them that it won't be a problem. But I don't think that can be taken for granted."

It can sometimes get out of control with specific plants in some areas, such as ramps and ginseng. This is especially true since these (particularly ginseng) have market value. Or, some people try to collect rare plants like wild orchids for their own garden–where they're nearly certain to die.

Actually, if one looks at the Jeffersonian Natural Law concept upon which the Constitution is based, Native Americans are more than exempt. We should all be asking them what we can do on their land. Although I'm surprised, I support the NPS in their efforts to follow greater principles above the specific details of their own regulations.

"My biggest problem with LNT.org is how they want to separate humans from nature. Like outside is an exhibit or something. Where are the velvet ropes?"

Exactly. This is one of the reasons I don't support LNT.

""My biggest problem with LNT.org is how they want to separate humans from nature. Like outside is an exhibit or something. Where are the velvet ropes"

I agree with this as well.
We are part of nature, all the way.

It seems to me that for a lot of people this LNT question is more of an anti-authority issue than anything else. I seriously don't understand what gets people so bent out of shape over an acronym and some guidelines. They certainly work well for me in the classroom.

That LNT is trying to separate man from nature, etc. is a bit of a stretch. Whether we're "part of nature" or not, however you want to define that, the fact is we have a propensity for destroying it at a lightening fast pace whenever we want to…or even when we're completely ignorant that destruction is what we're doing.

LNT is simply trying to recognize the fact that there are millions and millions of humans visiting, yes "visiting", the "wilderness" on a yearly basis in this country, most of whom are hardly "of" it or know a damned thing about it. And since we can't police the backcountry everywhere all the time, we hope a meager education and some signage on "best practices" will stop the hordes from completely destroying especially impacted areas. Because completely destroying the landbase and its flora and fauna with our numbers, pollution, and stupidity is something we are very, very good at.

If you want to take this discussion into a philosophical black hole of questioning whether or not human caused destruction is "natural", have at it. I'd rather spend my energy trying to insure we don't turn every last inch of wild land on this planet into a cesspool. Of course the wonderfully cynical and clever George Carlin tells us that's stupid because the planet doesn't care, that "protecting" anything is a selfish human concept. I say screw George Carlin. I think that we have a moral imperative, especially becasue of our numbers and impact, to think about our actions and how they affect other things.

So what's so horrible about LNT?

"I do a little bit of (novice) foraging and you see edible berries all along popular hiking trails. I don't think many people know or care about wild edibles."

I find the this to be true. Even blackberries are rarely harvested along popular trails, and everyone knows those. I don't think regulating foraging is necessary or a good idea. As long as people take responsibility if they eat the wrong thing, and as long as the plants are for personal use, people should be allowed to forage on public land.
If it's not broken don't fix it, applies here.

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So…years ago I had a friend/hiking partner who would NEVER EVER shut up about LNT. They had been a ranger for a few years for a NP. It was beyond annoying – if you happened to drop a tiny flake of food, you would get an endless lecture. OMG. Eye gouging.

Then….something happened. That cured them forever ;-)

We were hiking out and had been getting lectured over this piece here and there of micro garbage, for miles and miles. In the middle of the trail was a t-shirt. There had been this reeeaaalllly large and sweaty dude the night before who camped above us and lit out early – this same dude has torn wood shakes off a shelter and tried to start a fire I might add, during a fire ban, above the elevation where fires were even allowed…..

Anyhow, so there was a t-shirt in the trail, covering the whole trail. And lord did that set said friend off. Marching up, in a furor. Something wasn't right. She picks it up and OMG…there was the biggest dump ever under that shirt. Holy god. It was the size of a dinner plate.

Dude had taken a dump, ripped off his shirt and wiped his butt with it – in the middle of the trail.

I don't think I have ever heard someone scream so hard in my life.

Best part? I never, ever heard an LNT lecture after that. Her motto became "I don't care".

Lol…….and no, NONE of us packed that thing out. Oh hell no.

"For some reason, I've left my bear hanging rope a couple times."

Hanging a Bear would definitely be considered leaving a trace. ;-)

But Roger, the point Justin and I are making is that very few people forage, particularly while backpacking. Maybe close to town some people might pick all the ( invasive) blackberries, but out on the trail the percentage is tiny. Those that learn about the edibles and pick a few are really just like the animals that are part of the plan. Eating what you find on the trail is being part of nature, not just a visitor with only wrapped food.

Here are the seven principles of the LNT curriculum. Ken posted them earlier, this link goes into slightly more detail.

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https://lnt.org/learn/7-principles

Leave No Trace provides a framework for outdoor recreation decision making, which is summarized in the following seven principles:

1. Plan ahead and prepare: Poorly prepared people, when presented with unexpected situations, often resort to high-impact solutions that degrade the outdoors or put themselves at risk. Proper planning leads to less impact.
2. Travel and camp on durable surfaces: Damage to land occurs when surface vegetation or communities of organisms are trampled beyond repair. The resulting barren area leads to unusable trails, campsites and soil erosion.
3. Dispose of waste properly: Though most trash and litter in the backcountry is not significant in terms of the long term ecological health of an area, it does rank high as a problem in the minds of many backcountry visitors. Trash and litter are primarily social impacts which can greatly detract from the naturalness of an area.[5] Further, backcountry users create body waste and waste water which requires proper disposal according to Leave No Trace.
4. Leave what you find: Leave No Trace directs people to minimize site alterations, such as digging tent trenches, hammering nails into trees, permanently clearing an area of rocks or twigs, and removing items.
5. Minimize campfire impact: Because the naturalness of many areas has been degraded by overuse of fires, Leave No Trace teaches to seek alternatives to fires or use low-impact fires.
6. Respect wildlife: Minimizing impact on wildlife and ecosystems.
7. Be considerate of other visitors: Following hiking etiquette and maintaining quiet allows visitors to go through the wilderness with minimal impact on other users.
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For those of you "don't support" or are somehow opposed to LNT, I'd love to know what on this list is unreasonable. I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people react so negatively to this idea/acronym.

Is all of this actually over a perceived threat to berry picking?

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Oh Craig, really?

Whatever. With all this I bet I am less of an impact than most here .

I did not bring up foraging. But that is just your excuse. Carry on,

That berry comment was an attempt at sarcastic humor.

I'd still love to know what is wrong with that list.

Nothing is wrong with that list at all, on the contrary. What can be wrong is what people do with that list, like chastising someone who might skip one or two of those in a minor way.
Probably like the bible. Some people use it in some messed up ways .

It just keeps getting personal, seems like.

I've not chastised anybody for being LNT or not. Apparently lots of people have had issues with this. That's too bad.

But of greater concern to me than whether or not we have "LNT Nazis" on the loose is whether or not people are destroying everything they come in contact with.

I stand by my belief that its a great teaching tool for those new to the outdoors.

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