LEAVE NO TRACE

[Ian]

"What does Leave No Trace mean to you and how do you practice it?"

I try to walk and camp on durable surfaces, bury my pooh, pack out my garbage, and within reason, pick up garbage when and where I find it.

But I don't care what Craig says. You people will never stop me from building my forts. Never.

[Ralph Burgess]

Andy, the quote that you posted further above:
"When the first Europeans landed in the Americas, they described it as one vast untouched wilderness. This was about the highest compliment they could pay to the Native people who had lived there for thousands of years." –Bill Mason

I think that this is very much presenting Native American culture as an unrealistic idyllic fantasy, aka the "Noble Savage" trope. Is the suggestion that they COULD have built factories, roads, railways, large scale mechanized agriculture, schools, hospitals, cities, eventually nuclear power plants, who knows what…. but they just nobly chose not to? Sure, the fact is that the colonialists screwed them over so badly that we'll never know how their society might have matured and developed, and what choices they might have made had they developed modern technologies in their own time, following their own philosophies. But setting aside that hypothetical, at that time, the overwhelming reason that the wilderness was untouched was that (a) there were few people, and (b) they HAD no technology.

And you said
"Native Americans did a heck of a job with going way beyond our "Leave No Trace" guidelines over thousands of years, and on a deeper level than following a set of silly rules."

Well, once again, they achieved this by having (perhaps through choice) a tiny population and (not through choice) virtually none of the technology that allows us to sustain the modern quality of life. Reverting to a Native American way of life of that era would be a dramatic shock to most modern humans – a dramatic drop in quality of life – even for the bottom economic quartile of the modern world's population. That's where I think there's unrealistic idealization, you're ignoring most of the aspects of their life and culture that were vastly inferior to modern society (in a material sense, I mean, before a Cultural Relativist excoriates me).

Having said that – yes, I agree that perhaps we can learn from their philosophy of nature. The unrealistic idealization lies in failing to point out that there's a huge tradeoff in implementing those philosophies in the modern world. What it leads to is some very tough choices, major changes and sacrifices in quality of life (at least in the Developed world) and population management everywhere, at least until technology reaches a point where larger populations are sustainable.

[Greg Mihalik]

"When the first Europeans landed in the Americas, they described it as one vast untouched wilderness."

Except for the routine controlled burns.
And the impact of a few million folks living along the eastern seaboard.

[David Ure]

Which Europeans? The first wave or the second?

http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans

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[Bob Gross]

So, let me get this straight. Pyramid building is Leave No Trace?

–B.G.–

[Greg Mihalik]

No pyramids in north america.

But plenty of "mounds".

Traces persisting for about 5000+ years.

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[d k]

I'm sure that the fact that one was hand-crafted one to two hundred years ago, or more, vs. mass manufactured last year has absolutely nothing to do with that.

[Kattt]

Just watched George Carlin on Saving the Planet again. Classic.

I am all for trying to leave this earth for future generations to enjoy as we do; some folks just take themselves way too seriously is all.

[Kattt]

Edited…….blah, blah, blah ……fine with LNT, just don't like busybodies…blah blah…..
I am a considerate backpacker, not quite LNT, but I clean up after myself.

[Pedestrian]

> Some from Tibet, India's Punjabi region, China, and DNA blend of the groups in between.

Who pray tell are these people from "India's Punjabi region"????

Actually, please don't bother….

LOL….this is such a hoot!

15000 years ago there was an India? There was a Punjabi region (whatever that is)? There was an identifiable group of "people from India's Punjabi region"?

This post and generally this entire thread reeks of ignorance.
Just let it go guys and gals…..

LNT is what it says it is…no need to justify it on grounds that make no sense.

Y'all need to get out a bit more and learn about the planet before blowing hot air.

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[Jeremy and Angela]

"When the first Europeans landed in the Americas, they described it as one vast untouched wilderness."

As Greg implied, the Europeans were clueless. The natives had an incredible impact on the land, but because they didn't impose fences and rigid geometric shapes the Europeans assumed it was wild and untouched. Part of it was fire, part was encouraging the development of more useful plant species: tuning the existing ecosystem rather than replacing it.

[Pedestrian]

>I'm all for comedy and cynicism, but I am serious about genetic research, taxonomy of genome >into haplogroups, and I believe in the scientific method of research, the outcome of carbon >dating, and the magnified results of an electron microscope.

Dodger, yes I'm looking at you.

I'm being neither comical nor cynical.

Just let it go already dude….you're way out of your depth here. Just stringing together a bunch of pseudo scientific, pseudo historical, half-literate geographic factoids together does not make a cogent argument. I'm sorry.

[Ian]

Interesting stuff Roger. I live fifteen minutes away from where they found Kennewick Man. One of the theories kicking around several years ago was that he was of Polynesian descent. I haven't really followed it that much but it's interesting to hear different theories about the migration patterns of early humans.

[Jerry Adams]

I agree with Roger

There was some PBS documentary, probably NOVA, that talked about that

They took genetic samples of various ethnic groups around the world and correlated them. Found different groups in the Americas which led them to conclude there were different migrations. Found one of the migrations was most similar to various groups in Asia which led them to believe that was the migration path.

Ha, ha, ha,… there was no Pnujabi or India then. That's just the name of that area now : )

Uses the same science as DNA testing for criminal identity

Okay, now that we've resolved that, let's move on to global warming : )

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[Ralph Burgess]

Dude, you're way out of your depth here with these pseudo-astronomical factoids. The "moon" didn't exist then, because there were no humans around to call it that. How could an asteroid have hit the "moon" when it didn't exist?

Jesus, this entire thread reeks of ignorance.

[Andrew F]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the footprints and flag on the Moon are items of historical significance, and should not be removed or cleaned up by the next BPL'er to head through that area. Any campfire rings or TP, however, should be cleaned up and dispersed.

[Ian]

Ralph and Roger,

I have nothing to offer to this conversation that can dispute anything you have to say here but I can assure you that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Lunar LNT, you're way out of your league, and you should leave all discussions and pondering of the moon to us professionals.

(Long live the rebellion)

[Katherine .]

Leave this thread nicer than you found it. Or maybe just dismantle it altogether.

[Ralph Burgess]

Had me laughing there, Katherine. Excellent.

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[Ralph Burgess]

Arnie's Total Recall was actually….. 24 years ago! Isn't that horrific?
Looking back to check on the date of big movies that you remember being released is a sure way to make you feel very old.

[Author]

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