Time to panic

http://plasticsinfo.org/Functional-Nav/FAQs/Beverage-Bottles

this must be the trade group representing plastics manufacturers

they debunked a University of Calgary study that showed PET bottles harbored bacteria – the study author concluded it was just improper hygene, bottles could have been made of any material, saliva from people's mouth was getting into the water

they refered to a University of Idaho Master's thesis that identified unhealthy chemicals in PET bottle water – but it wasn't peer reviewed or anything – not a rigorous scientific study

the Master's thesis identified the chemical DEHA, but DEHA isn't used in PET manufacture or a byproduct. A Swiss study found no DEHA in water above normal background level

the USFDA does not prohibit reuse of PET. PET is not reused for economic and cultural reasons. Some countries reuse PET bottles but they have thicker walls for increased mechanical strength

there's an email hoax that's "gone viral" that freezing cause PET to release chemicals but there's no basis

kind of funny the plastics manufacturer trade group would argue for reuse. They don't make any money off it, it would be better if people didn't reuse and bought a single use bottle each time

"Think 'well overstuffed sausage with a translucent casing and sweat rivulets running down it'."

Oofh! That ones gonna stick in my head for a while.

jimmyb

Jimmy B., don't worry too much about death by marmot, or even plastic bottles. Your real concern should be death by something that the Idemonster taints your brain with. He can be very, very sick, and he can infect others that are new to this site. Just ask Jenifer… Me, I'm fairly immune to him by now. Mainly because I like the guy, and also the fact that he has a cool pooch.

"Oofh! That ones gonna stick in my head for a while."

In a good way, or a bad way..??? I'm sure Doug is dying to know. For me, very, very, very bad. The best way i can describe–indelibly…**seared**..into my mind.

On a side note; it's good to know that there aren't any plasticizers in PET bottles. Everything i've read so far, indicates that it's primarily the additive plasticizers which are more the issue rather than most of the base plastics in and of themselves (with some definite exceptions). Like basic polyethylene's and polypropylene's are pretty inert and stable plastics. But add some of those other chemicals to soften or add flexibility, not so good, especially when stressed.

Btw, it will be interesting to see how long the up and coming generations tend to live between the less than desirable diets, increased environmental pollution, less exercise, etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and say, not pretty long unless science/medicine makes some major break throughs and puts us all in nifty Darth Vader suits and extends our lives.

The reason why Great Grandpa lived so long, despite his two pack a day, whisky, and bacon habit, may be contextual some, cause while G.G. was polluting his body on a surface level, he still ate what is compared to todays food, fairly "natural" diet most of his life, didn't swim in a sea of synthetic chemicals, and likely was much more physically active as a trend.

But hey, let's have fun with cancer and all kinds of chronic diseases that are on the rise (to put it mildly). To think that there is no connection with increasing environmental pollution, perhaps a touch naive and wishful thinking.. Good times..well, until it's not good times anymore. While we all will die eventually, quality of life is kind of a factor to me at least.

"Jimmy B., don't worry too much about death by marmot…"

Have you learnt nothing from all the small furry animals that the government told us were safe, and turned out to be vicious killers? I think we have to assume the worst about marmots. Look how shifty their eyes are. I'm just the type who starts with disbelief and has to prove something is safe, rather than the other way around.

"Have you learnt nothing from all the small furry animals that the government told us were safe, and turned out to be vicious killers?"

Marmots and chipmunks were trained as attack animals for security purposes.

I think so. I read it on the Internet.

–B.G.–

Marmots are responsible for nearly every unsolved high sierra missing person case. They act swiftly and consume efficiently, very leave no trace.

And when it comes to vicious small furry animals, there's Gremlins, of course.
If you keep them as PETs, it's extremely dangerous to store water in them. But if you do, you should expose them to bright sunlight.

"Have you learnt nothing from all the small furry animals that the government told us were safe, and turned out to be vicious killers?"

You know, now that you mention it, after seeing G Canyon squirrels rip lizards limb to limb an Adirondack chipmonk shred a baby bird I would say the evidence is definitely there for some kind widespread diabolical Government experimentation
turning those furry little nut eaters into some kind of carnivorous demons.

Hey, with this last post hurling the thread so far of topic I'm feeling more and more like a true BPL member :) My apologies to the OP

jimmyb

OP is laughing his arse off. Derail away!

"They act swiftly and consume efficiently, very leave no trace."

Except for the occasional finger bone protruding from a marmot turd.

Death by Marmot? Maybe it is like this…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31pp6jRDn4

Jennifer,

I found that jar-style Gatorade powder container. 56 grams with screw-top lid. Holds 720 ml of water. HDPE so it is good below -40F and well above boiling.

For a totally SUL mug of a similar volume and the same HDPE material, I'd suggest cutting the bottom 5 inches off of a 1/2 gallon milk jug. It won't be nearly as stiff and you might want to wrap a layer of tape around the very thin lip, but it would be around 15-20 grams.

This Gatorade container would really shine if you wanted to transport something powdered (its original purpose) or if you had delicate stuff of that volume to protect – it's almost un-crushable – I put 200 pounds on it momentarily. And it would make a nice, large coffee/tea mug – large volume, warms two hands at once, or for oatmeal, soaking pasta, etc, because you'd have complete access with a spoon.

David, at first I thought, nah, I don't want to carry that…

But you know? I have one of those in my pantry right now, and you're right! it would pretty much be perfect for what I need it for! It would be big enough to do my smoothies at lunch (but not awkward to drink from), would do well as a mug, and yes! it would protect anything that needed to not be squished (whatever that might be….)

I think that's what I'll take – if I don't like it I can always swap it out for an actual gatorade bottle or something at TM, or Red's, or VVR….

Thanks!!!

and yes, I leave in the morning. Super excited!

…

So while I was being drowned out by people who were jumping to defend their practices and the effects of their own methods, or attack me for wanting to be cautious and share that perspective, I have come up with yet more facts and a scientific study. Again, my point is not to scare anyone just to point out that you need to make your own decisions about plastics and their use in your backpacking, and you shouldn't trust the EPA or anyone else to tell you its ok. Here is a newer article as well as a very in-depth study, that touches on all kinds of plastics, including PET plastics. Summary: all of them leach estrogenic compounds at measurable levels. Please read if you're interested in facts rather than opinions:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-containers-may-be-just-as-hazardous/?WT.mc_id=SA_Facebook

then click here for the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/

And just to summarize for anyone too lazy or with poor internet connection reading these quotes from the scientific study:

"Because polymerization of monomers is rarely complete and additives are not chemically part of the polymeric structure, chemicals having EA can leach from plastic products at very low (e.g., nanomolar to picomolar) concentrations that individually or in combination can produce adverse effects, especially in fetal to juvenile mammals. This leaching of monomers and additives from a plastic item into its contents is often accelerated if the product is exposed to common-use stresses such as ultraviolet (UV) radiation in sunlight, microwave radiation, and/or moist heat via boiling or dishwashing. The exact chemical composition of almost any commercially available plastic part is proprietary and not known. A single part may consist of 5–30 chemicals, and a plastic item containing many parts (e.g., a baby bottle) may consist of ≥ 100 chemicals, almost all of which can leach from the product, especially when stressed. Unless the selection of chemicals is carefully controlled, some of those chemicals will almost certainly have EA, and even when using all materials that initially test EA free, the stresses of manufacturing can change chemical structures or create chemical reactions to convert an EA-free chemical into one with EA."

AND

"Here, we report that most of the > 500 commercially available plastic products that we sampled—even those that are presumably BPA free—release chemicals having detectable EA, especially if they are assayed by more polar and less polar solvents and exposed to common-use stresses. That is, we show that, to reliably detect such leachable chemicals having EA, unstressed or stressed plastic resins or products should be extracted with more polar (e.g., saline) and less polar [e.g., ethanol (EtOH)] solutions and exposed to common-use stresses (boiling water, microwaving, and UV radiation)."

I'm not here posting to create some scare tactic about plastic in everyone's lives, I'm just here to point out that reusing plastic bottles is not a good idea, because you will be exposing them to constant UV light while in the sun on your packs, breaking them down over time. You also shouldn't wash them in a dishwasher, you shouldn't put boiling water in them, and you should just generally not reuse them if you can avoid it. Very specifically, women who are pregnant should pay ESPECIALLY good attention here based on these studies. All this being said, I still hike with one nalgene bottle to use with my steripen, so I am not even heeding my own advice all the time. But it does make you think twice, does it not? Why not take these facts as the science that they are instead of just attacking the ideology? Again, if you disagree, post some facts, don't just shout back and forth about what you think? That's not the point of a forum.

Adam, really all that anyone did in response to your assertions was to say "show us some data that support what you are saying". And we did that because the world is full of irrational scaremongering – it sells glossy magazines. And some scaremongering is far more sinister in its effects than reuse of plastic bottles (anti-vax, for example).

Until now, you hadn't shown us any data. Now you have – and thank you, I'm looking at that paper.

(Ok, I confess that we did joke around about marmots a bit, too)

But I have no idea what you mean by this –
"Why not take these facts as the science that they are instead of just attacking the ideology? Again, if you disagree, post some facts, don't just shout back and forth about what you think? That's not the point of a forum."

There's no ideological issue involved here, so far as I can see, except a pushback against assertions made without evidence, and against the kind of anti-government paranoia that can be (in some cases, not yours) a hallmark of the conspiracy theorist.

I'll ditto what Ralph said.

Your most recent article certainly supports what you've been saying and I appreciate you taking the time to find and share it. There is a lot of supporting research attached to it that I'll have to read through later to get a better idea of how in/significant the occasional freezer bag meal is and re-using plastic bottles that spend 99% of their life in the side pocket of my backpack. Also, I do add electrolytes to my water once or twice per day so I'll have to do more research to see if the concentration of NaCl is high enough to be of concern.

Thanks for posting.

It sounds like even HDPE might leach toxins then, although they're probably the safest plastic option? I have several wide and narrow mouth 1 liter HDPE Nalgene bottles which have held up great over the years.

So, simplifying a bit, the only "relatively safe" water container would consist of:

stainless steel
uncoated aluminum (assuming aluminum has no adverse effects itself)
organic material (nontoxic wood, gourds, animal stomachs…)

You might also include the few titanium bottles available. They're crazy expensive for a water bottle, but they're unlined and Vargo specifically mentioned that even the cap is BPA/BPS free.
Or for an even higher price you can get a bottle with a titanium cap!

I too lamented reading that even HDPE, which I had understood was pretty much inert, was leaching out nasties as well.

Some of the related articles do provide some hope, however. They mention how there are some poly-carbonates being produced with no hormone-like chemicals. They even mention how these other monomers are roughly comparable in price to what is being used now. It's just that there is really no way of telling what was used in the product you just purchased without substantial scientific testing.

"uncoated aluminum (assuming aluminum has no adverse effects itself)"

That's a whole other flame war. Some people claim that exposure to aluminum can cause Alzheimer/dementia. Others say the average Joe/Jill gets more aluminum from deoderant than they'll ever consume from aluminum pots or bottles. Liberty Bottle Works (local to Yakima, WA) lines their aluminum bottles with a food grade powder coating.

I'd personally have no problem using un-coated/non anodized aluminum if I wasn't already filthy with titanium gear for backpacking and anodized aluminum in the kitchen.

"Some people claim that exposure to aluminum can cause Alzheimer/dementia."

I forgot about that.

(oh no!)

If they line the aluminum container with "food grad powder coating" – that's plastic with all the possible risks of that.

From alzheimer association http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_myths_about_alzheimers.asp

"Myth 4: Drinking out of aluminum cans or cooking in aluminum pots and pans can lead to Alzheimer’s disease.

Reality: During the 1960s and 1970s, aluminum emerged as a possible suspect in Alzheimer’s. This suspicion led to concern about exposure to aluminum through everyday sources such as pots and pans, beverage cans, antacids and antiperspirants. Since then, studies have failed to confirm any role for aluminum in causing Alzheimer’s. Experts today focus on other areas of research, and few believe that everyday sources of aluminum pose any threat."

I wouldn't injest spoonfuls of powder aluminum, but aluminum containers should be fine

Acid (like tomatoes) in aluminum dissolves some of the aluminum. Some antiacids have aluminum. Some baking soda as aluminum. Maybe minimize use at home where you use it a lot more than occasional hiking trip?