Time to panic

Jennifer, PET bottles would fine (bottle survival and toxic exposure) with warm drinks.

But if you might pour boiling water into the bottle (to save time, to dilute hot water with colder water to drink, to dissolve something quickly) don't use PET. Use HPDE. HDPE can be pretty light per volume held (gallon milk jugs are HDPE) but I'm not recalling a wide-mouth HDPE bottle off the top of my head.

Maybe others have a suggestion.

I think (but would need to confirm) that there's a screw-top Gatorade-powder plastic jar that's HDPE. That would make a great bowl/ mug for camp use. A bit too wide-mouthed for sipping water while hiking, though.

I don't know if you looked at our age differences Bill, but pretty much everything I used as a child was in plastic, or plastic-lined containers.

More importantly, there is a lot of science behind what I'm saying. I didn't say it to be the "end all be all" of reusing gatorade bottles, I said it so that you can all do your due dilligence and research. I for one know that you CANNOT rely on the FDA to protect us from leaving the plastic bottles out in the sun because I see them EVERY DAY when I walk around where I live and drive around the city. Ignorance and self-assurance are not the answer if you think my facts are off… find some of your own. You can heed my advice or not, and of course I don't "KNOW" that you will get cancer doing this. But since lots of doctors and some scientists make it clear that UV rays break down plastics, as do extreme heat (Your dishwasher is hotter than the warehouses they store bottles in) its up to you to decide what you want to do.

I just thought it was important to represent the other side of the argument for those that would rather err on caution and avoid those plastic bottles where possible, that's all. There are plenty of facts about it and you are welcome to continue your research on your own…

Try the newer jars of marshmallow fluff. They have moved away from the glass and it is now a small HDPE jar with a good sealing lid. The shape is a bit funky, as it narrows toward the opening. But it should make an excellent bowl or mug for even the hottest items.

You're other option could be one of the HDPE Nalgenes, the pint size is available in a wider mouth, though it's pretty tough to find. I still use an old, probably BPA laced, polycarbonate bottle for my hot drinks. It's as light at any of the insulated mugs I could find that were worth carrying. Works great for me.

"Ignorance and self-assurance are not the answer if you think my facts are off… find some of your own."

Again, I appreciate your concern as I don't want cancer but let's try to stick to data, not emotion. There are a million horrible ways to die. PET bottles, for me, is somewhere between death by marmot and getting hit by a meteorite.

Thanks for your input.

I just want to point out that I am sticking to data. I'll go hunting for more to post, but in case you didn't read, I already posted one article and the quote from it. I didn't make up my concerns in my own head, I learned them from reputable sources and I'll look for more to prove it.

If you think its smart to just assume the best rather than assume the worst when it comes to protecting your health, maybe you should be working for the Government instead? The FDA and many other gov't organizations take the stance of the "least" possible when it comes to research and regulation of things that are hazardous to our health. If you feel otherwise, that's your right, but the record isn't really on your side. Look at plenty of examples from the past, including lead, mercury, BPA, and more. I'm just the type who starts with disbelief and has to prove something is safe, rather than the other way around.

Jennifer,

Cut the screw threads off a (typically) white HDPE (like David sugested)vitamin/pill bottle, placein a light cozy and….

…instant coffee mug that's right at an ounce, and very tough.

Todd, thanks for the great tip! but I have plenty of options for coffee mugs – what I would like is to be able to multipurpose my smoothie/electrolyte drinking vessel to include my am coffee (which doesn't have to be super hot – I'm good with just warm). I just don't want to deal with ANOTHER thing…just for drinking coffee….

"but in case you didn't read, I already posted one article and the quote from it."

Yes you posted this:

“The levels of migration expected, including during periods of exposure to elevated temperatures in storage and transport (such as might be experienced in a closed vehicle in the sun) have, as discussed above, been determined by the agency to be well within the margin of safety. Therefore, the agency does not consider this situation to be a safety concern.”

What am I missing?

Ian, I think you and I must be missing the "if the gubermint says it's okay, it must be bad" gene. It's a great time saver – it would let me jump to conclusions and skip those four years of studying chemistry and engineering.

Adam, I'm confused too. I'm not sure what position you're advocating. You seem to be concerned about the fact that bottles are stored for long periods at high temperatures before sale. But then you posted an FDA statement that said they had looked at precisely this question, and found no evidence of unsafe levels of migration. You also said that you're comfortable that a single use of the bottles would be safe – but surely a single use would come after this period of high temperature storage that you're concerned about?

Speaking of chemicals, dihydrogenmonoxide is a chemical that we consume daily (hopefully). From my understanding, any compound is a chemical… But then I may just be an idiot about this. Better to self depreciate, than to self defecate.
Hmm… Would these bottle still be safe for THAT purpose? ;)

That all being said, given the evidence I have seen, I feel safe enough carrying a Smartwater bottle that is being reused. Even IF some small amount of harmful substance was coming out of the plastic, the bottle would have so much water usage, it would be very dilute. I still shy away from BPA tho, even if dilute due to heavy bottle usage…

"Ian, I think you and I must be missing the "if the gubermint says it's okay, it must be bad"

I came to this conclusion too. Based on all the statements in what he pasted there being contra his own warning, I was confused too. What you are all not getting is that it is the FACT of a scientific study that is suspicions, not that the result said it was not dangerous. ;-) (satirical smiley inserted here for he satirically impaired – in other words flame me for the right reason.)

I don't think those studies were about long term re-using PET. They were just saying that if you buy food in PET containers, it's safe.

According to http://homeguides.sfgate.com/plastic-drink-bottles-safe-reuse-drinking-water-79290.html

if you re-use PET, bacteria can grow making it unhealthful, the plastic can absorb food residue which can increase bacteria, UV can cause chemical reactions in plastic which make it release unsafe chemicals

they give some references

I re-use PET. Wash it good with soap and let dry. Don't leave it in the sun – I wouldn't want to do that regardless because it warms up water. After a year or so I throw it away.

Sometimes a bottle will look cloudy or cracked so I just throw it out.

There are articles about putting water in PET bottle and leaving in sun for 6 hours to kill bacteria. Hard to know how much radiation you get though. This is contradictory to advice to not expose to UV : )

"I don't think those studies were about long term re-using PET. They were just saying that if you buy food in PET containers, it's safe."

I couldn't get the University of FL link to work but after going down that rabbit trail, I found this one:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050830052647/http:/www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNews/articles/Halden_dioxins.html

"OC&PA: So it’s okay for people to drink out of plastic water bottles?

RH: First, people should be more concerned about the quality of the water they are drinking rather than the container it’s coming from. Many people do not feel comfortable drinking tap water, so they buy bottled water instead. The truth is that city water is much more highly regulated and monitored for quality. Bottled water is not. It can legally contain many things we would not tolerate in municipal drinking water.

Having said this, there is another group of chemicals, called phthalates that are sometimes added to plastics to make them flexible and less brittle. Phthalates are environmental contaminants that can exhibit hormone-like behavior by acting as endocrine disruptors in humans and animals. If you heat up plastics, you could increase the leaching of phthalates from the containers into water and food."

The following source seems to be biased but they claim that PET bottles do not contain phthalates:

http://www.petresin.org/science_behindpet.asp

"PET contains no phthalates. Phthalates (i.e., phthalate ester plasticizers or orthophthalates) are not used in PET, nor is PET a phthalate. Plasticizer phthalates are sometimes used to soften other types of plastic, and are believed by some to be potential endocrine disruptors although this is unproven. The confusion seems to come from PET's chemical name, polyethylene terephthalate. Despite the suffix, PET is not a plasticizer phthalate. Phthalates are low molecular weight monoesters made from ortho-phthalic acid. PET is a high molecular weight polyester made from tere-phthalic acid. They are completely different chemicals."

"So it’s okay for people to drink out of plastic water bottles?"

I think that means buying water in PET bottles, drinking, discarding bottle.

They weren't talking about re-using bottles.

"They weren't talking about re-using bottles."

Is there any mildly reputable source saying that re-using a PET bottle, short of letting it sun bathe for hours at a time or microwaving it, is unhealthy in any meaningful way? I didn't read anything showing that PET was somehow more succeptable to bacteria growth than any other container but maybe I missed something.

This is starting to feel like the GMO witch hunt (flame war on this topic in 3… 2…)

looking for PET data, came upon this

http://www.nrdc.org/thisgreenlife/0902.asp

the replacement chemical for BPA goes by the trade name "Titan" but they don't reveal the chemicals so they don't know if it's safe. NRDC may not be top on the list of unbiased scientific data : )

"Is there any mildly reputable source saying that re-using a PET bottle, short of letting it sun bathe for hours at a time or microwaving it, is unhealthy in any meaningful way? I didn't read anything showing that PET was somehow more succeptable to bacteria growth than any other container but maybe I missed something."

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/plastic-drink-bottles-safe-reuse-drinking-water-79290.html said that PET can have bacteria growth. The plastic can absorb food. They gave some links to sources but the links were dead. I'm too lazy to look further.

I think all plastic has the same property.

PEX water pipe would be okay, because it just has clean water with chlorine, so there would be no bacteria growth. And it isn't exposed to UV.

Water bottle gets saliva on it which is infested with bacteria

Narrator: Our hero finds himself on assignment sitting in a cafe in an undisclosed location, a region stricken with malaria, dengue fever, and drug resistant strains of tuberculosis.

Hero: Miss! Oh Miss! Yoohoo!

(waitress approaches the table)

Hero: Could you tell me if this this bottle is BPA free?

Waitress: ¿Mande?

Hero: BEEE PEEE AAAA?????

Waitress: ¿Perdió sus huevos? ¿Dónde está tu mamá?

(Hero starts flipping through Spanish/English dictionary)

Hero: Something something something eggs…. no I wanted Agua and a Cafe con leche! BPA? (points at water bottle)

Hero: Do you have CHEESE BURGERS? Como se dice…. Queso de cow?

"Adam, I'm confused too. I'm not sure what position you're advocating. You seem to be concerned about the fact that bottles are stored for long periods at high temperatures before sale. But then you posted an FDA statement that said they had looked at precisely this question, and found no evidence of unsafe levels of migration. You also said that you're comfortable that a single use of the bottles would be safe – but surely a single use would come after this period of high temperature storage that you're concerned about?"

Ok sure, I'll clarify. You're misreading my post. It states that while they do test for "extreme conditions," those conditions seem to include high temperatures in warehouses, not direct exposure to sunlight, which I feel is known to be bad. My position is to state that point of view, and yes, to state that even first use can be bad. In addition, I was stating that the dishwasher is not a good idea for any kind of plastic bottle you use for food or drink.

David, yes my generation has to think that way. Look at the things that older generations developed and which are FDA approved – that are ruining our environment as we speak – roundup and other chemicals and fertilizers that scientific studies show will kill bees and monarchs and possibly have a real effect on the entire ecosystem. Yet we allow rampant use of them.

I'm going to dig deeper to find out if I'm just wrong, I'd like that to be the case. If long term UV exposure and heat from dishwashers doesn't damage plastics at all, then I'm just flat out uninformed, but sometimes that happens.

"I'm going to dig deeper"

Without snark, I wish you well. I'll be happy to reverse my opinion about PET bottles when presented with scientific data but for the time being, it all seems to be much about nothing.

Jerry,

Yes, there are studies finding that water can be disinfected by spending 6 hours in European sun (less in the tropicals and much less when the water is warmer) in a PET bottles up to 2 liters in sizeWikipedia details it under "Solar water treatment".

Yes, most surfaces allow bacterial growth (I don't hike with silver or copper water bottles myself), but 1) UV would combat that and 2) if you fill it from a municipal supply, it is chlorinated (usually about 1 ppm).

" Would there be any problem with putting not hot (but definitely warm) water in the gatorade bottle in terms of bottle survival and chemical leeching?"

Perhaps microwave safe plastic would be fine. I assume they are safe with boiling water in them for extended periods of time, and there are probably a number of very cheap alternatives like this, such as zip-lock containers. The one cup size might be nice as a coffee mug, provided you done burn your hands.

Interesting conversation although I really never contemplated the dangers of reusing plastic bottles as a major issue. Admittedly that is my own ignorance, but continuing to read this thread…. now I'm all twisted up with the idea of death by Marmot!

jimmby

Okay, not plastic bottles, but plastic wrap.

So I saw on the internet somewhere an old magazine with a story on how the 50s (I think) woman could be a good wife and different things she could do to excite her man after a hard day at work. One such thing was to get naked and then wrap herself in plastic wrap for her man. It didn't mention anything about leaching.

Being the good boyfriend, I tried it once myself for my girlfriend. If hysterical laughter is a way to show excitement, she was very excited. I, unfortunately, was sweating profusely. Damn that is one hot outfit, and I don't mean sexy. Think 'well overstuffed sausage with a translucent casing and sweat rivulets running down it'.

I don't read old magazines anymore…..