fuel canisters

I'll go with Justin here. Can't a responsible person decide to use the safest stove, without waiting for edicts from on high? I personally would think canisters safer than Esbit, but that brings the question – where are the studies and analysis of this topic? What are the conclusions? That is a subject fit for discussion……

Those in charge of the different patches of back country are trying to prevent catastrophic, unnatural wildfires, and are less concerned with the most convenient stove for lightweight backpacking. Anyone with fire line experience will understand where they are coming from.

The various forest managers decide the rules for their own forest. If you don't want to comply with their fire restrictions, then they don't have to issue you any wilderness permit.

I think most of the problem here is that their fire restrictions are sometimes written in legalese. They would only make sense to a federal bureaucrat, and not to a practical backpacker. I would expect that a backcountry ranger knows what an Esbit stove is, or what the risks are for an alcohol stove. However, they aren't the ones that write the rules.

I'm seeing some breakthroughs there, but mostly with the National Park Service. The National Forest system seems to have its heels stuck in the mire of deciding how many mules you can graze.

–B.G.–

I found the response I received from the Sierra NF last year. Not exactly definitive in my opinion. I'd be willing to bet I could "turn off" my esbit as quick as one could turn off their canister stove.

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A burner, stove or lantern which can be turned off at a moment's notice is permissible for use during fire restrictions.
Please see the attached Forest Order regarding fire restrictions.

Have a great trip!

Kelly Hooten
Information Services Assistant Sierra National Forest
559-297-0706 ext 4989

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Original Message

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From: amrowinc@hotmail.com [mailto:amrowinc@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 6:17 PM
To: FS-Public Affairs
Subject: WWW Mail: Portable Esbit & Alcohol Stoves

In years past the question about the use of esbit and alcohol backpacking stoves has come up. These stoves are not addressed in the posted SNF reg that says "No open flame fires. No building, maintaining, attending or using a fire, campfire, or stove fire (except a portable stove using gas or pressurized liquid) outside of designated recreation sites." Every back country ranger and the permit issuing office personal I've talked to in past years have always said yes, esbit and alcohol stoves are allowed and that the concern was about open wood fires and wood burning stoves. I plan to use my esbit stove again this year on the JMT and have a hiking partner that uses an alcohol stove. Both the Inyo and SEKI wilderness permit offices have again said they are allowed and there is no change from previous years. Will these stoves be OK to use in the Sierra National Forest?

Thanks,

Don

Don, here is what I propose.

You shoot a 30-second video clip of an Esbit burner in operation, and then you drop an aluminum foil snuffer cap on it. Wait ten seconds, then lift the snuffer cap to show that it was fully extinguished.

Then send that off to the national forest people and let them think about it in a practical way.

–B.G.–

I don't know Bob. Esbit may be a little too tame for the multiple jurisdictions that seem to favor jellied petroleum stoves. Jellied petroleum is basically a poor mans napalm in my opinion. Add some to a Molotov cocktail and you'll get a lot of bang for your buck.
Regarding the foil snuffer. I've found that they extinguish easily by blowing on them.

"I've found that they extinguish easily by blowing on them."

My experience is that I need to get directly above the burning Esbit and blow firmly in a straight downward direction in order for it to extinguish. I have difficulty blowing it from the side due to windscreens and rocks.

Ah-ha. There could be a design opportunity for somebody who can make a wing stove with an extinguisher attachment. Of course, then the forest service would find another excuse to reject it.

Jellied petroleum? Isn't that Sterno? Sterno doesn't have any on-off control.

–B.G.–

I'm telling you, you need a snuffer with an on/off switch on it to comply with regulations:

But Bob says it has to be a valve, so version 2.0 is in R&D at the moment.

I smell a kickstarter opportunity!

Marko, LOL!

The wording of the regulations even within one jurisdiction is confusing or vague. This is from Yosemite's web page:

"Wood fires are allowed in existing fire rings only, and prohibited above 9,600 feet in elevation. Fires are also not allowed at Lower Cathedral Lake and within 1/4 mile of the shorline of Kibbie Lake. Use dead and down wood only."

And then…

"Fires are permitted with a wilderness permit in wilderness areas, unless otherwise noted. No additional fire permit is needed. However, fires are only allowed in existing fire rings, and prohibited above 9,600 feet in elevation (gas stoves are ok). Use dead and down wood only."

Note the distinction between wood fires and gas stoves. OK, makes sense, but what about alky and esbit? The wording of these regs is as though they don't even exist to be discussed. Or, that burning an alky or esbit stove results in something outside the definition of a "fire." So, can alky and esbit be used or not? And if so, only below 9,600 or above as well?

J R, I don't see any confusion in the Yosemite wording. I've backpacked there for over 35 years, so I understand what they mean.

First of all, you can't have any wood fires at all above 9600 elevation, and none in a couple of named spots that get high use. You can have a wood fire otherwise, but only in an established fire ring. That means that you can't build a new fire ring and you can't have a wood fire without any fire ring. When they use the word "fire" they mean wood fire, and that means a campfire and also a wood twig stove. They have some roaming patrols, and they know exactly where every legal fire ring is located in all of the common places.

I inquired to Yosemite recently and I reported their status here, that they have no unusual fire regulations now or planned for this summer. However, if things get suddenly dangerous, they can change.

You can use white gas, butane, propane, alcohol, Esbit, or just about anything else, and that goes for anyplace up to about 13,200 feet. I'm guessing that they neglected to mention alcohol or Esbit because they are not super common.

–B.G.–

"But Bob says it has to be a valve"

It is claimed that it must be a control, but I like the rocker switch. You could stencil the word "control" in red onto the rocker switch, and that should make it legal.

–B.G.–

I wonder if the pivoting "simmer plate" on a Trangia qualifies as a "control" or a "valve"?

There's enough confusion that I wouldn't be critical if someone used Esbit or alcohol as long as it was done safely – on fire-proof surface, like a slab of rock.

If ranger complained, just say you thought it was okay and show the surface is fire-proof.

I can see why authorities wouldn't allow it. You need some regulatory group, like for bear canisters. They can't just use common sense, because each person's common sense is different.

On the other hand, I don't see why people don't use canister stoves. Easier. Lighter weight in many cases, or only slightly heavier.

LOL at the alky stove switch idea.

I'm waiting for the science types to jump in here. Stereo is actually jellied alcohol, a different beast altogether from jellied patroleum. I've always wondered what the jellied patroleum reference is/was about. Does anyone out there have a jellied petroleum stove?
The San Bernardino National Forest (Southern Ca) stove information page does make reference to their rational behind allowing jellied petroleum stoves. The wording is "Jelly petroleum-fueled stoves can be extinguished by putting a metal lid over the container."

Mark,

Bravo!

Justin,

cyof = claim your own farts? I'll google that one later.

All,

It'd be fairly simple for the feds to create a Code of Federal Regulation (CFR) but I suspect they don't want to suffer from good intentions/unintended consequences so have instead delegated that authority to the local ranger to keep from boxing her/him in. Still, if they could at least give a legal description of what an open flame, open fire, stove, etc is or isn't, then it'd be a lot easier for hikers to understand what the rules are. It may very well be defined in the CFRs but I can't find it.

Not to be confused with legal advice but if a person with apparent regulatory authority just told me that I needed to be able to turn off my stove at a moment's notice, and I had that in writing, I'd probably take my Esbit stove. If the conditions are so bad that I'd be concerned about using my Esbit stove, then I wouldn't use my canister stove either. I don't see one being appreciably safer than the other.

I'm still not selling my canister stove anytime soon as the regulations are not always that vague and sometimes that's all a hiker can use.

"Stereo is actually jellied alcohol, a different beast altogether from jellied patroleum."

Gee, I was always wondering where the sound came from.

–B.G.–

I just got a reply to my inquiry for Inyo National Forest:

"Currently, we are not in restrictions, but I anticipate that changing in the next few weeks. When we are in restrictions, the esbit fuel is ok as well as any stove burning any fuel but wood that has an emergency shut-off valve."

Personally, I found the wording to be odd, but it seems clear that Esbit is legal. It seems vague about alcohol.

I'm still waiting to hear from Sierra N.F.

–B.G.–

Sierra National Forest's reply just arrived:

"Dear Valued Member of the Public,

Thank you for your email, in the back country we do encourage stoves and prefer something that you can turn on and off like your mentioned backpackers stove. The Sierra National Forest at this moment is not in any fire restrictions but do expect to be in them soon. Last year we only allowed small backpackers stove so for now you should be okay, if you have any further conserens [sic] please just give us a call at (559) 297-0706."

I had specifically asked about stoves that burn white gas, butane, alcohol, or Esbit. So, again the response is kind of confusing and vague. I have the feeling that they've never seen an Esbit burner.

In conclusion, I've heard from SEKI, Yosemite, Inyo, and Sierra. Nobody is banning Esbit. So, I wonder if the rumors got started just out of confusion over terminology.

–B.G.–

Bob, I agree that the Yosemite restrictions on wood fires are clear. My point is that when the rules specify that *gas* stoves are OK, the implication is that other types are not. And yet, in another place by specifying *wood* fires are restricted, the implication is that other types of fire are not subject to these restrictions. So, one implication is that alky and esbit are OK, another is that they are not, at least not above a certain elevation. And while "wood" fires and "gas" stoves are specified, alky and esbit aren't mentioned at all, leaving them open to the potentially contradictory interpretation.

J R, I had asked about the different stoves and fuels, and there was no problem, excepting the strict rules about wood. You are reading too closely between the lines.

–B.G.–

I know it is hardly ever pointed out but it is worth reminding people every once and a while that the above treeline (10k feet in Yosemite) fire prohibitions don't have to do with fire hazard but with depletion of dead wood which is vital for the alpine ecosystem. What little there is feeds what comes after and a sparse environment and long winter mean it takes forever to recover. There is an analogy here with the perennial forgetting by a few people in discussions that bear cans are to protect the bears not people's food.

Anyway just something to keep in mind. This is not to say the officials themselves might not have the same issue at times, as well as getting them mixed up with fire hazard restrictions. After all while things are slowly changing the wording still often seem like it is a holdover from long ago. Does anyone still use sterno and does it any longer merit an explicit mention in many of the written regulations.

Interesting that SEKI fire restriction regulations specifically say that both alcohol and esbit are specifically permitted during EXTREME restricted times.

"Gas, propane, alcohol (with and without a shutoff valve) and tablet/cube stoves are permitted"

The rest, Inyo, sierra, yosemite, use the jellied petroleum wording, which I will argue that esbit is as close to as anything (since there is no such thing).

Im thinking I will take esbit myself. Saves the hassle of mailing a stove as well.

perhaps they could allow alcohol stoves above a certain elevation where starting a wildfire is impossible (granite).

hmm. Well darn. Maybe I will take my starlyte and caldera cone set up.

ESBIT it is for me then this year! Very happy about this. :O) I like it when my carry weight keeps decreasing with no canister weight to lug.

KJ

all talk of legalese aside, which stove combo is the safer one to use?

A caldera cone/modified starlyte combo with a short/wide evernew pot (won't spill – except for squirting the alcohol out of the bottle…)

or an upright canister stove (FM 118t, hornet!) with a tall narrow MLD 850mL pot (less stable when set up)

Thoughts?