How stupid is it to go into the wilderness without a shelter or survival skills?

Untrue: "But if the weather turned they would get hypothermia and die. It's really that straight forward. You get wet and you die." They might not get hypothermia. They probably wouldn't die but it's far from impossible.

Hypothermia is rarely ruled a cause of death. It might be an attributing factor, but people rarely die directly from it.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5308a2.htm
During 2001, a total of 599 persons in the United States (2) died from "exposure to excessive natural cold.

I showed in a prior link where the guy tallied up backcountry deaths and, by my reading, hypothermia was the #2 killer in the backcountry. For every person that dies there are many expensive rescues. For every expensive rescue there is someone that wishes they had been better prepared for the weather. And hypothermia definitely causes deaths indirectly by effecting people's judgment or coordination causing death or injury in some other way.

If it starts raining, and it's cold, the first thing any sane… human being is going to do is find shelter. A common (if not standard) reaction for inexperienced people if it starts raining at night and they're exposed to the elements is #1, not notice at first, and #2 burrow deeper into their sleeping bags hoping it will stop. #3 after they are starting to feel wet and/or cold, look for shelter. In this case it would be ten miles from the road, in the dark, wet, cold and inexperienced. That's not a good position to be in.

So yes, the OP probably over-reacted which will likely make his message less effective, but he's right that the shelter-less duo took an unnecessary and significant risk.

Well, you're assuming "exposure" means hypothermia. It could mean frostbite, etc. I also don't think a coroner is going to generally rule "exposure to cold" as a cause of death. That exposure to cold is going to cause cardiac arrest, asphyxiation, etc. that would be the cause of death. So yes, hypothermia is certainly contributing. We agree there.

Ex. If you get the umbles and stumble off a cliff and break your neck. Did you die from hypothermia or a broken neck?

"In this case it would be ten miles from the road, in the dark, wet, cold and inexperienced. "

Another assumption. There could've been plenty of natural shelter nearby (large trees, overhanging rocks, caves, etc.). We don't know based on what we were told.

Slightly off track, but just read this today and though people on thread might find this interesting. Study looking at Hikers in Whites and the Ten Essentials.

–mark

Chris said Well, you're assuming "exposure" means hypothermia. My quote is from a CDC paper entitled "Hypothermia-Related Deaths" which says a total of 599 persons in the United States (2) died from "exposure to excessive natural cold" so I'll let people judge for themselves.

There could've been plenty of natural shelter nearby (large trees, overhanging rocks, caves, etc.). And there could have been none. Even if there was a perfect cave 10 miles in the smart thing to do would have been to carry some sort of shelter. Plans and weather change. Stuff happens. In remote country a shelter is just about the most basic and sensible of safety precautions.

That exposure to cold is going to cause cardiac arrest, asphyxiation, etc. that would be the cause of death. So yes, hypothermia is certainly contributing. If someone gets so cold their heart stops I think hypothermia is more than a contributing cause.

Yes, there is a bit of hyperbole in the OPs post, but I interpreted that as a natural counter-reaction to the attitudes of the people in question. Also I thought it was plenty clear enough – 2 family members, female 28 and 40, went into the sierra, apparently without him so all the lectures on leading by example may not apply here, 10 miles from the road at 8000 feet with NO SHELTER of any kind with the intent of staying overnight. One down and one synthetic bag. They were inexperienced and based their choices only on a weather report that said there would be "no rain". That is fine all by itself since if we assume they carried everything else there is still a pretty easy route for them to get in trouble. Is it likely? NO. Would they probably make it out even if the worst happened? Yes. But it is still inadvisable for reason that, it seems clear, the people in question neither understood, nor were prepared for the actual condition that could easily arise. End of story.

I think it is ingenuous to ask if there was a large tree nearby, a cave and so on. Also I don't think whether they carried a pad matters, except to fine-tune how bad it could be. These are irrelevant details. It would be easy to assume that since they were relying on "no rain" they would also leave behind any real rain gear, and I think that could seriously effect things. Still I don't need that info for overall advice.

The fact is that the Sierra, in May, at 8000 feet, lows can easily be in the 20's. In spite of over-all weather we know that they might still get rained on for long enough to soak their bags through so that both the down and synthetic bag could become be next to useless, tree or no tree. Given what we DO know, then, it is *easy* to imagine the following scenario: early evening, dark, temps in the 20's, with soaked clothes and bags and possible high winds. Could they huddle against a tree and survive the night? Probably. Is there a route to them dying in this scenario, especially if one or more other things go south, as is more likely given their lack of experience? Absolutely. Do people actually die in these circumstances? It is not "common" or even justifiable, but unfortunately yes, all the time. Again, end of story.

But even leaving the issue of death aside, it would seem clear the folks that did this don't have even the scenario of spending a night in abject misery huddled under a tree below freezing with an unusable bag on the radar, and it should have been. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

My advice to the OP would be to run through this scenario for them without anger, and without being hyperbolic and/or patronizing. Tell then what *could* happen, and tell them what *has* happened to other people in similar conditions. Tell them if they are willing to risk a night of abject misery, then to take a space-blanket as an extra layer of insurance. If they want near certainty of reasonable comfort no matter what, then tell them to take a light tarp between them, and rain jackets. Loan them yours. Possibly just planting the idea that the worst-case scenario is worse than they imagine will make the difference. Then let them do what they want – I never thought forcing them not to go was even a possibility. I would advice you to tell them you think the minimum to insure reasonable comfort would be totally waterproof protection for their stored bag, waterproof ground sheet, small tarp or poncho, and a pad. The tarp and rain jacket will help in the case of cold winds regardless. It they are prepared to make it *though* a 30-60 min localized shower without having their bag and clothes soaked, and to sleep on damp ground, then they will be fine.

But by all means, you guys go on arguing about the the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

…

That news story on essentials isn't off track. It shows the mindset and it's just basic preparedness—- the lack of it that is.

One of the core principles of UL hiking is to take only what you will use and that does conflict with some of the ten essentials mindset, but mostly with rain gear, knife, navigation, and first aid. In many cases these items aren't compltetely eliminated from UL gear list, but they are often represented by examples that aren't fully functional in an emergency. We need to temper the zeal to reduce weight just a bit with essentials. That doesn't mean that you can't seek out light, high performance alternatives. The alternative to a single edge razor blade is not an 8" knife!

Another example comes up on a regular basis, with folk asking if a windshirt can be a replacement for a rain shell. When looking at a spreadsheet, it looks like a great option, lopping off 10-12oz and saving some money and bulk too. It's really the same question as the shelter quandary and the answer is sill no. Continue to look for lighter, high performance models, but don't risk your life, or even your comfort for lack of a DriDucks shell or a poncho.

There is always the rub that these items won't be used. In a perfect world with a trained and experienced hiker, those items may never be used. That is simply a blessing.

As in the case of the lost State Patrolman, a highly trained and experienced hiker can get themselves in a nasty bind and a handful of basic equipment can save a life. A good roaring fire and a space blanket used with a makeshift shelter would have made the situation much better.

Another good example is the story of the injured hiker lost on Mount Hood. She wasn't ambulatory enough to continue to gather firewood. In that case a poncho or a space blanket could have provided more protection. Even if you are injured to the point that you couldn't properly erect a tent or tarp, you could still wrap it around you or simply lie under it. I've sat out some real deluges sitting under a tree with my poncho on. It wasn't a Barcolounger, but it sure beat the cold and wet alternative. I carry a space blanket bivy for exactly that scenario.

I don't recall anyone mentioning it, but all the guys in the OP needed were a couple bivvies. They could still sleep under the stars while having that extra level of protection.

The real thing to grasp is that this is supposed to be recreation. It's not a military campaign, nor a game of UL oneupmanship. A light load can contribute to the comfort and enjoyment of a backcountry journey, but not at risk to your life, or even the prospect of being cold and wet for a night. If you are too cold, too wet, too hungry, or too lost, you are too light!

Ex. If you get the umbles and stumble off a cliff and break your neck. Did you die from hypothermia or a broken neck?

it doesnt matter …

one of the cardinal "rules" of being "safe" (such as they are) is that you must be able to spend the night … theres a very good chance that any SAR operation will not reach you till morning … or even after several days

all it takes is some skills and determination …. and a minimal amount of gear

you can spend the night cold OR wet … but cold AND wet and yr decently effed …

joggers, hikers, etc … get rescued here all the time because they got lost, didnt bring the right gear, or simply slipped …. you should to be able to spend the night, assume itll be in the rain …

people make their own choices … just do your best not to put others at risk

to the OP … just buy em an UL helium rain jacket or an emergency 4 oz bivy as a gift

;)

Well said, Eric

So if I write up a plan for an overnighter without a shelter, will you buy me a Helium and a bivy? Won't take me but a couple minutes ;)

…

"this was a VERY risky camping strategy and that they almost died."

"They were fine of course."

"It's really that straight forward. You get wet and you die."

After reading the original post, I want to leave the internet forever.

"After reading the original post, I want to leave the internet forever."

I kind of felt that way too.

I agree that the folks in question could use some advice, but the original post and some of the commentary is pretty over the top.

My advice to the OP is to chill out and then offer some calm suggestions of how they could have been safer without getting preachy or going overboard.

Ehh when I bring noobs I present there options and let them decide what they want to do. Of course Im with them and wont let them die but I will certainly watch them freeze all night while I sleep comfortably and not feel bad for them.

We have all had uncomfortable, cold, wet, and sleepless nights. They suck and allow us to learn. Thats also kind of the way I started UL backpacking. I didnt have money for new gear so I had to figure out what I could go with out. and sometimes that meant no rain gear in the summer, less food, no extra clothes, smaller first aid kit, using a tent foot print as a tarp cause its what I had. Im sure most people on this site would think my gear list irresponsible on a lot of those trips but its how I learned to survive out there. So what if you have to spend the night huddled under a tree in a soked t shirt and board shorts becuase you pitched you tent in a dried up river and brought no pants or rain gear. Thats how you learn.

On reading this thread my only thoughts are how this trip could have been viewed in a much different light. What would happen if a new user posted this type of trip report as a "hello" post?

"Hi, this is my first post, I am new to the BPL/ultralight community and just did my first ultralight trip last weekend. I've been wanting to do more overnight hiking but have been daunted by the weight of the gear after doing some trips in the past. I had an opportunity to go out with my uncle in the Sierras and we wanted to do a minimal fast-and-light trip, so we only took sleeping bags and planned to sleep under the stars. We had been watching the weather for a while and it looked like a good window of opportunity so we went for it. It was only 10 miles or so from the trailhead we figured we could hike out or turn around if it looked ugly. It was a calculated risk that paid off.

The freedom of exploring the wildneress with so little gear was so liberating, I just wanted to share and look forward to learning more from this web forum."

I think the replies from this forum would generally be along the lines of:

"What an awesome uncle for taking you on such a trip and introducing you to minimalist backcountry travel"

"Sounds like an awesome trip! Watching the weather and planning for minimal gear for the conditions is getting really into the ultralight spirit right away, well done!"

"Think about leaving the sleeping bag at home and just using pine boughs"

"Next time you can save weight by taking less calories and living off your fat stores"

"10 miles is nothing, go longer next time"

"What shoes did you wear? Next time use vibram 5 fingers or no shoes at all"

"How heavy were the sleeping bags? You should think about upgrading to a quilt"

Rob,
Bravo!!!!

Another +1 for Rob's take.

Honestly, if the forecast was clear and stable, I see no harm in going on a short overnighter without a shelter. There's plenty of quick overnight trips where I haven't brought a shelter and even more where I've brought one but never took it out of my pack.

Now, if there was a chance of rain, or you live and hike in a location where the forecasts can't be relied upon, then yeah, it might be foolish to hike without a shelter or the ability to find shelter.

…

Josh,

I hope you are joking as if you not you are a twisted individual if you let your friends go out unprepared when you know better.

Shame, I thought you where an ok guy, I would not fancy going hiking with you if your serious about this.

"Now, if there was a chance of rain, or you live and hike in a location where the forecasts can't be relied upon, then yeah, it might be foolish to hike without a shelter or the ability to find shelter."

I basically agree with the past several posts wholeheartedly. But as established above – May, Sierra, 8000 ft. = very good chance below freezing overnight, non-zero chance of getting 30-60 minute rain regardless of the weather report. Perhaps a bit less chance than later in the summer, but it never would be unexpected in pockets. So even by the above logic it was "foolish".

The crazy hyperbole of the OP, therefore, does not mean the basic conclusion that "those two should have taken a space blanket or small tarp between the two of them as backup for comfort and possibly safety" is any less relevant and well thought out.

I would encourage anyone that understood the above to go ahead and do it anyway – the awareness alone of this very low probability possibility should forearm anyone enough to deal with it if it happens, even if they still don't want to make sure their bags are in waterproof sacks and heft the extra few ounces of some kind of tarp, just in case.

As for presentation and communication of this idea, maybe the OP should hire someone else to convey the message in a way that seems more logical and less hysterical.

laughing so hard.

"-1 Josh, these labels, and your attitude… shame on you"

Actually I give him a +1. now THAT is truly "leading by example"!

Also I'm sure oh so morally self-satisfying. LOL

I thinks it's time everyone had a beer :-)

How can you all be so calm ? They went into the woods, alone, unprepared, at night, in the dark ! They could have tripped over a chipmunk, sat on a poisonous mushroom, or accidentally ingested a salad of poison oak ! THEY ALMOST DIED !!!!!

Doesn't the fact that these people were so close to death mean anything ?

They probably weren't even wearing cheerful bright backpacking gear, but instead, chose to tease death by wearing camo cotton sweatshirts.

Please follow the rule, buy the brightest, loudest colors you can. Your loud clothing might be the only chance of being heard from a helicopter. Plus, nobody can see you scream in the dark so people should always have a light with them.

–G.B.–

At least in the Woods there is no buses for them to be thrown under :-)