How stupid is it to go into the wilderness without a shelter or survival skills?

Also, to be clear. I'm totally fine with sleeping outside and in the open. But you need to be able to build a shelter or have a tarp.

First you need to get them to listen.

If you are reacting with fear (and maybe a little anger) like it seems from your post, they will not likely hear you. And maybe become defensive.

Calm down. Let a bit of time pass. Chill out.

Then plan a trip with them so they can see by example.

bill

How else can they beat your pack weight? Relax and see if you can go with them. Better to lead by example. I wouldn't listen to somebody lecturing me. Telling me I almost died, when I had a great nights sleep.

Wet does not automatically = DEATH.

They could have walked briskly back the ten miles and would stay warm and damp most likely.

Wet is most definitely not automatic death. I am mostly stupid and have done exactly as Ken suggested. It's not comfortable, but it is certainly a learning experience.

Stupid may be strong, but risky, oh yeah.

All of the outdoor organizations that I have seen recommend a using Ten Essentials sort of gear list, and for good reason. Every year we see people lost, suffering from exposure, injured, or outright dead from lack of preparation and basic equipment.

Every time I go for a hike, I meet people on the trail with not a shred of equipment with them, not even a water bottle. The typical day hiker I see is wearing cotton clothing and no pack, so the most they could have is a pocket knife and maybe a small flashlight, but certainly nothing else. And I see them headed up a trail in the late afternoon, giving them an hour or so leeway to get back to the trailhead before dark. I honestly think they have no clue how dark it can get in the mountains, away from city lights, and you can add forest cover and clouds to make moon and starlight of little help.

Relying on weather forecasts is totally unreliable. Take my day hiker example and add some rain and you have a hypothermia case just waiting to happen.

Most of the victims I have read about aren't deep in the back country. A couple miles into a wilderness area is more than enough to get you in trouble. These are what I call Gilligan Hikes: just a "three hour tour" that turns into a life threatening event. I have my essentials every time I step off the pavement and someone I trust knows where I went and when I am due back.

Navigation is probably the foremost area where some training is needed, although many could learn from a book. First Aid is easy enough to get training and IMHO, it should be covered in all high school health classes. Shelter building is easy enough to learn from a book if the person has basic knot-tying and woodworking skills and fire building should be easy enough to learn. Scouts learn all of these things as a matter of course.

But going for a weekend with no shelter is just foolish. Just a little line and a poncho or a plain blue poly tarp would provide enough shelter to make a rain storm survivable.

How do you motivate people to insure their basic survival? Ask Darwin! I would send them email links to local search and rescue stories. Some of the news links that Eric Chan has posted have been very educational.

Let's get a real feel for the situation. More details.
Age and physical condition of the perps?
Where and when exactly did they go?
What was the weather forecast they saw? At least temperature and elevation.
Cell service option?
Sleeping pad and bag. These the only two items they took with them?

Camped plenty without any shelter. Still here.

Age and physical condition of the perps?
I see that as making little difference, unless very aged and/or poor health. I've seen big healthy guys shiver big time with hypothermia.

Where and when exactly did they go?
Season might lower the risk, but not eliminate it.

What was the weather forecast they saw? At least temperature and elevation.
If you believe the weatherman, I have a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge…

Cell service option?
You're going to go out under-equipped and then rely on your cell phone if you screw up? FOR SHAME!

Camped plenty without any shelter. Still here.
Lucky man. Very irresponsible to recommend such a thing.

Hey – they survived! Can't be 100% stupid.
It's a free world. They can do as they want. It is not your right to demand they do otherwise.

However, teaching by example is wonderful, and far more effective. Take them on a walk in more dubious weather. Have a spare tarp tucked away in your pack just in case. Maybe they will get rained on and suddenly see the light.

But it's a free world.

Cheers

Depends on the temperatures.
If you know where you are, you can just keep walking.
Generally, walking will keep you warm, even when wet, in pretty cold temps.
Only 10 miles, is a couple hours walk.
You can walk out if you get chilled badly.
Should at least have raingear though, cheap poncho, etc.

You only die, when you stop moving.

40 and 18… female. Sierra Nevada's .. Elevation probably 8000 feet and temp usual 40s at night and 70s during the day.

No cell service.

One synthetic sleeping bag and one down.

> It's a free world. They can do as they want. It is not your right to demand they do otherwise.

Kind of is if they're family ;)

Besides … they keep asking me for free advice and the requirements are that you're safe :)

If they show up for a trip and are _somewhat_ inadequately equipped, then just shut up and let them learn things the hard way.

If they show up for a trip and are _extremely_ inadequately equipped, make sure that they make out their life insurance policies with you as the beneficiary. That will make them think a little more.

I agree with Roger. It's a free world (except for maybe North Korea) and a couple of other garden spots.

–B.G.–

Indeed it is a free world. But it is nice to help protect family and friends. Funerals suck, especially when you have to sit with the deceased's wife and kids and thinking that you might have said something to save their life. Gently give advice and offer alternatives: coach and teach rather than preach.

BUT, when it comes to recommendations, it is very irresponsible to advise people to go out without proper gear and basic essentials.

Good luck telling a 40 yo woman anything. The 18 yo knows everything, just ask.

As I said before. Lead by example.

@Dale. Of course I think they should go out prepared. But people don't all the time like you have noticed. 99% come back alive. No excuse, but the odds are probably with them. Dumb luck, isn't that what they call that?

As for the other questions. Just trying to get a picture.

This sounds like how I learned to backpack as a teenager. Those were fun times.

deleted

"Those were fun times."

Fun times indeed. My most memorable trip – my older brother and I decided to go camping in the winter. Never been winter camping before, but that didn't stop us. So we loaded up a tent and a coleman lantern and stove and sleeping bags onto a sled and trekked a mile or so behind our house (all woods behind our house, great place to grow up) in the snow.

We set up the tent, threw down the bags and headed off for a day of adventure. We got back near dark, cooked our dinner and settled in for the night. Nobody told us our tent didn't have a waterproof floor. Oops. Our bags got pretty wet. We stayed warm by keeping the coleman lantern burning all night long with the tent door open. Broke camp in the morning and headed back home.

What a couple of maroons we were! Very, very lucky maroons. Ah, those were the days.

Where were they camping? There are a lot of places in California where I never bring any kind of shelter in summer. It just never rains.
If they went way up into the mountains somewhere then I agree they were being stupid.

Options:

1 Let them take what gear they want, but have a spare tarp yourself in case.

2 Refuse to go unless YOU are happy with their gear. This is different from 'they must carry XXX' as it focuses on you, not them.

Anyhow, lead by example.

Cheers

The thing about hypothermia is it can creep up on you over hours, even without rain – and it can easily happen in the 50's if you are especially badly prepared. Of course if you get hit with rain unprepared it can slam into you very fast. I mostly worry about people who just naively go into the woods for the first time. No matter how much you read about this, until you experience the onset of hypothermia, and the effect it can have on your reasoning, you may not take it seriously enough. If it is someone with enough experience to recognize the onset, as well as have a plan for whatever happens (including just walking out) and not just for the case they hope will happen, then I'm not worried.

So close to the trail head the main problem is a mental one. It's where you at first don't, and then can't, make the right rational decision on what to do that could get you killed in that case. It requires a bit of extrapolation that not all people seem to be good at. I think every year there are probably people who die of exposure from the sequence, "I feel ok so far, (later) I'm cold but not freezing… (later still) I'm really cold but I can handle it… (too late) I'm wafelye relly frezbum….(finally)gawp!". Should have taken action back at "I'm cold" of one sort of another. Same thing goes at the other end of the temperature spectrum. Every year there are 5-10 people who just walk down into the Grand Canyon in summer on a day hike who are mentally unprepared, make wrong decisions, and die of heat stroke and/or dehydration, or in the best case scenario get rescued by a passer-by.

On the other hand just buy them a couple of those Mylar sleeping bags and tell then to take them, just in case. Then in the worst case scenario they will be miserable, but warm enough. I love cowboy camping too – just need to have actual contingency plans beyond "the weather guy said it probably would not rain or get too cold". In the Sierra there is no such a thing as an "it is not going to rain" condition! All it would take is one localized 30-60 min afternoon/evening rain or sleet shower of the kind that happen every day in the summer at multiple places in the Sierra, regardless of the global weather pattern, to ruin that calculation.

If wet meant death then I would be dead instead of sitting in a hotel right now. At 6:30 this morning I took a little swim and was wet for most of the day. Yet I still was able to make it 25+ miles to the endpoint of the hike. While I had a shelter it wouldn't have done me any good. So lets look at a couple of scenarios. I know the Sierra very well. You can often get away with not taking shelter and you will be fine. And most of time it will be afternoon thunderstorms. So lets say they lay down and go to sleep. They notice it starts raining. What do they do? They could be perfectly fine if they had rain gear and even if they didn't they probably A fit person could hike out in three hours. Or in the middle of the night it starts raining. Do they have rain gear and decent light to hike out? Could they find their way? So no shelter isn't by itself dangerous. But I would stress to them that their ego is writing checks that their bodies can't cash. Not smart and not advisable but likely not dangerous. But Russian roulette is safe 5 out six times.

Lots of misconceptions about the onset of hypothermia. For a healthy adult, it can take 30 mins or more for mild symptoms to develop when immersed in ice water (0 C or 32 F). That goes up to 2 hours for moderate and up to 3 hours for severe. This assumes you're wearing appropriate clothing for the season. Bottom line – the onset isn't nearly as fast as people think it is.

Sources – Wilderness First Responder and Whitewater Rescue Tech training

Ten miles from the road at 8,000' is a long way back in. I would bet that 99% of fatal hypothermia cases and rescues on land are closer to a road than that. It sounds like they relied on the weather report for selecting survival gear and that's not a good idea when getting that far from a road. Ten miles may be only a few hours walk IF you are fit. AND you don't get lost. AND if no one gets sick or injured. If an unexpected cold rain had started at 7 PM that night, what then?

It's the type of risk a person can usually get by with, but they should be more careful if they want to stay out of trouble. Most of us have taken unnecessary risks out of inexperience. I call it "confidence through ignorance."

There was a story last year about a Dad who took his two kids out for a short day hike and got lost somewhere in the Ozarks I believe. They even passed someone who offered to help them out but he declined and kept at it. It started raining and they found the three of them huddled together and dead the next day.

After reading that story I began to take gettingwet and being prepared for even day hikes alot more seriously.