The “I don’t get it” thread

[Greg F]

Aaron,

I think the reason is that Comfort UL is so easy these days. In no bear can zones you can go 10lbs and bring the kitchen sink (literally). So as tech has improved you can bring more stuff. And the benefit of cutting that stuff is minimal as for a weekend trip you can have a 18lb pack and a 12lb baseweight. My last trip I brought a chair and was under 10 lbs, my new goal is 10lbs full kitchen set up to cook pizza, cookies and bread. Luxury UL is what you are seeing.

Now back to back 40 mile days and my list changes a lot but where is the driver to go lighter than 10lbs for a 20 mile day weekend trip.

[Cesar Valdez]

Glad I am not the only one that doesn't get mitts. I was half expecting to be mocked and trolled for not seeing the point.

Windshirts on the other hand, I get. I don't always bring one, but I often do, especially on section hikes and summer trips. For me it is about fine tuning warmth, and for around 100-200g depending on what kind of windshirt, it is not that much of a weight penalty. I have one that is 75g that sees the most use, but I also have a beefier running jacket that is around 200g that I use in cooler temps because it is warmer (plus has nice pockets too as a bonus). I have yet another that is 140g that is in my urban backpack that I use a lot as an extra layer–great for when I stay out later than expected and it's much colder around midnight.

Even in places that see a lot of rain, which probably includes where I live and hike, it is usually not raining. So my windshirts see more use than my rain gear. Plus it is multi-use: you can wear them to bed (I often do), wear as a shirt while you wash/dry your t-shirt, and if it is warmer out but raining it is a nice buffer between a rain jacket/poncho and arms (if, like me, you don't find rain shells as nice on the skin as windshirt nylon).

Now the whole pee bottle or pee in your pot thing I don't get either. Not because I think it is "gross" either–fresh pee is sterile, from what I gather. I just don't mind getting up to pee outside of my shelter, even in the rain. Only takes a minute or so, even when squirming out of a bivy. Maybe because this is not as frequent for me? I hardly ever wake up at home to pee, and would estimate that I wake up to pee out backpacking maybe 20-25% of the time. I do make it a point to try and pee before bed, though.

[Stephen M]

Hi Cesar,

Just had a think and I have 4 pairs of mitts I use through the various seasons.

MLD Event mitts.
Gooses Feet down mitts.
Outdoor Pl 400 fleece mitts.
OutDoor Designs inferno mitts.

The Mld pair are what I use most and layer the Down or fleece mitts under them if need be but prefer to keep the down ones for camp use.

The infermo mitts have a crazy amount of synthetic fill (around 220gm2) and are solely for winter.

When using the Mld pair on the move in winter I will usually have 1 or 2 pairs of liner gloves under them, in summer I may wear them by themselves.

[Nick Larsen]

I don't get "skin out" weight.

I mean, if my everyday dress is jeans, shoes, car keys, wallet, pocket knife, cell phone, etc. I'm probably wearing 5 lbs of clothes. But, since I wear this on nearly a daily basis, my body is used to the weight as if it was my own body weight.

Based on that, I don't see the point in calculating the weight of anything other than what is in your pack, unless you normally walk around naked, or your backpacking clothes are heavier than your EDC. I doubt either of those cases are ever true.

In fact, I propose that the standard be to calculate your skin out weight, but you subtract your EDC weight from that number, and the result is your actual backpacking weight.

I'm gonna start wearing a 30lb weight vest 24/7, so backpacking will feel like I lost weight, lol.

[Travis Leanna]

I hear ya on that, Nick.

I guess I "get it," but never saw the need to really care about total worn weight in a spreadsheet. I do pay attention not to stuff my pockets full of extra stuff and when I buy a garment I look for the lightest version of what I need.

I've even considered using an *inside/on/attached to* the pack only measurement; not including the pack weight. Why? Because good, supportive packs are light enough now that when worn empty they feel light like clothing. Plus, a good suspension system can make the load feel lighter than it is.

[Aaron Sorensen]

+ 2 with Nick.

I don't even care what my base is. It's all about the weight carried on my back.

[Stephen M]

I will make sure I don't have any coins in my pocket but that's about it.

Travis,

I find a weight minus pack measurement makes sense for me most of the time.

[Daniel Fish]

…

[Stephen M]

It makes it easier for them to tell porkies :-)

[David Ure]

Don't get it.

[BlackHatGuy]

"I don't get why many tents are advertised with a weight minus guylines and stakes."

Because there are many different guylines and stakes with varying weights out there. I might use a different set, at a different weight, than you. So advertising only the shelter weight makes sense.

[Daniel Fish]

…

[David Ure]

Pretty awesome, eh?

Tee, hee.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

moving slow enough to find a rain jacket tolerable to wear as a wind shirt, I don't get it.

[Ken Thompson]

Esbit. Many here seem to love it so. I find it smelly, messy and slow. Have a canister stove. Want to give it a go? Though I am very happy with my alcohol stove and cone. I can see some advantages on paper, but in real life I am not a fan.

[Jeffs Eleven]

"moving slow enough to find a rain jacket tolerable to wear as a wind shirt, I don't get it."

If the temps are right you can hike at a good pace with a thin shirt a light shell. Especially handy it the ol' 35*F and windy/rainy.

[Ike Jutkowitz]

I don't get the "I don't get it" thread.
Different people, priorities, goals, activities, comfort levels, climates, and aesthetic values. What's to get?

[Jason Elsworth]

@ Aaron- I just don't understand why everybody brings sooo much crap with them when they go backpacking.

What specifically do you see on gear lists that people don't need.

[Cesar Valdez]

Stephen – Thanks for your input on mitts. Seems like you really love them if you have so many pairs. Still not sure about them. I guess some people just really want dry and very warm hands all the time, or maybe have bad circulation, I guess.

Nick – You raise valid concerns. I was looking at my geargrams list of my new 1+ season list earlier today, doing some updates and such. I thought about the same things you brought up actually, about a lot of stuff being in my pockets, and that I wear heavy clothing for urban use all the time, etc. Because I tend to nerd out on things, I included in my gear list literally everything I plan on taking down to the last detail, other than consumables and clothing worn, and I am around 3.3kg/7.3lbs. Yet with a bit of "cheating" I could make this into a SUL gear list but stuffing a bunch of stuff in my pockets, or not counting things like my glasses, key chain, wallet items, rain jacket, minor consumables like lip balm and sunblock, etc. After I upgraded my clothing systems last year and did a few FSO weights, I feel much like you, that I am over it and will just stick to BW–but I just have to include everything that is not consumable or clothing. Plus I think it is fun to know exactly how much every little thing I carry weighs.

Ken – I am with you on Esbit. I think it's great as a back up or as a firestarter, but for me too many drawbacks for me to use. I am alcohol all the way, even in winter, though I must admit the gas users really shine in the winter.

Ike – Oh how delightfully post-modern of you. You will receive the fish as soon as my attorney gets "the" signal, and thank you for your "feedback."

EDIT: Yes.

[Jake D]

Alcohol stoves… slow, finicky, potentially messy… on paper the advantages can be nice but in practice i found mine annoying in the wind and slow even in good conditions.

give me my Optimus Crux any day.. 1 small fuel canister can last me 2+ weeks if needed and in 3mins i have boiling water enough for FBC. can be set up, boiling and taken down quick in any non freezing weather. i'll "spend" a few ounces for convenience.

[Stephen M]

Hi Cesar,

The MLD Mitts get used all year round, the fleece mitts from about 35f-20f, I use he other from 20f to about -10f, anything colder I would rather
be in the pub.

Cheers,

[Cesar Valdez]

"Alcohol stoves… slow, finicky, potentially messy… on paper the advantages can be nice but in practice i found mine annoying in the wind and slow even in good conditions. "

For one I will say that I mos def get using gas–as I just mentioned, in the winter they really are awesome. I somewhat recently wrote about why I prefer alcohol on my blog, forgive me for quoting myself:

(alcohol) is relatively cheap, very easy to find (virtually all gas stations and campgrounds in Sweden/Norway sell it), easy to use, easy to store (in various kinds of recycled plastic bottles), and when it burns it is quiet, nearly odor free, and only leaves small amounts of soot (if any).

[Daniel Fish]

…

[Jake D]

12oz bottle of HEET is $5 on Amazon.. 12 boils 4oz canister of isobutane is $4.5-5.50 and is 15+ boils. never leaks, never spills, boils 1.5c of water in 3 minutes.

I don't do overnights in winter so the cold disadvantages of canisters don't concern me

[Nick Larsen]

Travis and Aaron: Good points.

I also tend to count the actual backpack weight last, and it holds the least significance to me. I would much rather carry 30lbs that fells like 20, than 25lbs that feels like 25…

If I really want to save weight I could throw it all in a garbage bag and just carry it over one shoulder…

This is a big reason I am getting more and more interested in external frames. Especially now that I've realized they don't weigh any more, and sometimes less than internals, and carry more comfortably.

And, yes, what's the point of a 5lb base weight if you carry 25lbs worth of food, water, and alcohol. I think a good standard would be to compare the backpack trail head weight for a 3 day trip. I think that would be the most accurate way of comparing yourself to others, and establishing UL, SUL, and XUL definitions.

In fact, I would go on to say that the "standard" should be you skin out trail head weight for a 3 day trip minus your urban EDC weight. For arguments sake, we can say 2liters of water would be standard for calculation purposes.

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