Should I be carrying more Dead Birds?

again david … what are you doing that needs a dead bird ???? … how much harder, faster, longer are you going in it?

u will noticed in my posts on this thread that i said look at the particular piece … not the brand name …

lets go through it again …

"performance" – more crazy things have been done without dead birds than with … the best climbers, alpinists, or even "hikers" use all different sorts of gear …

"durability" – well that depends on the piece … the harnesses are know for wearing out quickly … the "UL" packs dont last any longer because of the logo … konrad posted the link about issues with even their flagship rain jacket

"service" – walk into any MEC, REI, EB, lands end, OR, LL Bean … and you get better "service" … if you want to test this theory i will feed one of my OR jackets to a cute cuddly household pet, you do the same with your dead bird … well tell them the unvarnished truth … lets see what happens

and even Mchale any chance you get.

and where did i slam mchale??? … or are ya confused ;)

as for BEE-MAAHS … youre paying 20k+ canadian over a perfectly normal, reliable, functional care that costs less to run … doesnt do anything better LEGALLY on the road .. and killing more polar bears as a result

whether a person gets one is their choice … but its not going to make em any better except for climbing the social ladder … and with the record amount of debt canadians are in, people probably shouldnt be going into debt buying em …

and here REAL WORLD gas milleage on the bmw 320d by real owners

http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1105315&d=11724.17124&nmt=

the EPA site has REAL WORLD reported gas mileage by owners as well … as do many other sites … go check em if you dare

;)

–"what are you doing that needs a dead bird ???? … how much harder, faster, longer are you going in it?"

This is a terrible argument. Getting a piece of gear that is built well doesn't mean you HAVE to push it up to specs.

–""performance" – more crazy things have been done without dead birds than with … the best climbers, alpinists, or even "hikers" use all different sorts of gear …"

This is even worse! Seriously? Because someone brings a North Face jacket to the top of Everest, another unrelated company isn't worth it? I asked for reasonable advice. You're just being wholly irrelevant!

–""service" – walk into any MEC, REI, EB, lands end, OR, LL Bean … and you get better "service" … if you want to test this theory i will feed one of my OR jackets to a cute cuddly household pet, you do the same with your dead bird … well tell them the unvarnished truth … lets see what happens"

I don't really care what service offers better replacements for something completely irrelevant to the use of my gear. My dog eats dog food.

Finally,

–"as for BEE-MAAHS … youre paying 20k+ canadian over a perfectly normal, reliable, functional care that costs less to run … doesnt do anything better LEGALLY on the road .. and killing more polar bears as a result"

Passing a Semi on the highway quickly reminds you why you paid for your horsepower. having the ability to quickly accelerate is real-world useful, fun, legal, and incredibly fulfilling for the price paid. Amenities within the car like trim and styling aren't worth it to you but they're VERY worth it to THOUSANDS, if not millions of drivers. You can't just claim that someone is wrong for wanting nice things- a great majority of people like nice things and some earn them.

If you are just going to keep repeating the "Both get you from A to B" argument while ignoring the abstract benefits of horsepower and aesthetics, you're just going to be ignored by everyone. The internet gives the illusion of people caring by the response, but if you had this conversation in real life you'd be mired in awkward silence and abandonment.

Trying to justify BMW or Arcteryx to Eric is seemingly equivalent to trying to justify hiking to my non hiking friends. They just don't get it. Never will. So I don't bother. And we all live happily ever after.

I drive an M5 and a Hyundai. I won't try to justify the extra cost and poorer gas mileage of the M5 to a non-car-enthusiast, because they'll never understand. Giving them a ride in it sometimes goes a long way towards making them understand though. And it doesn't require breaking any laws to feel the difference between the two cars. In fact driving both back to back actually makes the BMW feel that much more worthy.

Oh and to keep this relevant to Arcteryx and their service: They just replaced a wind vest I use for running. My dog had eaten the zipper pull off of it. He really likes the taste of expensive outdoor clothing and tv remotes. I think I had to pay for shipping to WA, but can't remember for sure. No other costs or questions. And I didn't buy it from them either.

The qualitative difference between a Civic and a BMW is far greater than an Arcteryx or REI brand shell. Poor analogy.

so its a "feel good" thing?

that explains it all ;)

It's a feel good thing backed by actual data and specifications. To ignore the "feel good" part shows your inexperience as a vehicle owner and a driver. Driving can be an intimate and highly fulfilling experience, in every sense of the word. it's a key part of reviewing a vehicle. The overwhelming majority of magazines without expressed neutrality (Consumer Reports being the only one I can think of) enumerate on the "feel good" stuff as a primary focus. It's what MATTERS.

Getting a piece of gear that is built well doesn't mean you HAVE to push it up to specs.

so if you arent using it for that "extra performance" … WHAT are you using it for … strutting around ???

This is even worse! Seriously? Because someone brings a North Face jacket to the top of Everest, another unrelated company isn't worth it? I asked for reasonable advice. You're just being wholly irrelevant!

oh come on … you came on here trying to "justify" your purchase … what makes dead bird "BETTER" ????

its not like people climb, hike, ski any harder in em than without em …

use what you like … but its the PERSON that matters, not the brand

I don't really care what service offers better replacements for something completely irrelevant to the use of my gear. My dog eats dog food.

so the service aint important to you? … well sorry to say it is important to quite a few people … and dead bird does not have "service" any better than the aformentioned brands/retailers

Passing a Semi on the highway quickly reminds you why you paid for your horsepower. having the ability to quickly accelerate is real-world useful, fun, legal, and incredibly fulfilling for the price paid. Amenities within the car like trim and styling aren't worth it to you but they're VERY worth it to THOUSANDS, if not millions of drivers. You can't just claim that someone is wrong for wanting nice things- a great majority of people like nice things and some earn them.

weird … even whe i had a gutless tercel … i never had any issues passing slow semis on the highway … if you did i suggest a remedial driving lesson ;)

people drive what they want and wear what they want … thats up to them

however then there are those who claim this or that piece is "better" … when you really dont do anything much "better" with it =P

t's a feel good thing backed by actual data and specifications. To ignore the "feel good" part shows your inexperience as a vehicle owner and a driver. Driving can be an intimate and highly fulfilling experience, in every sense of the word. it's a key part of reviewing a vehicle. The overwhelming majority of magazines without expressed neutrality (Consumer Reports being the only one I can think of) enumerate on the "feel good" stuff as a primary focus. It's what MATTERS.

no its WHAT YOU DO WITH IT that matters … you can "feel good" in your BEEE-MAH or your dead bird all day long driving in the city, or walking around in town …

but what are you really spending that $$$$$ to ACTUALLY DO?

"The qualitative difference between a Civic and a BMW is far greater than an Arcteryx or REI brand shell. Poor analogy."

Not on a scale basis. Regardless, the idea was to show that there are some that are willing to pay for quality and performance and thus a BMW over a Civic or an Arcteryx shell over say, an REI shell.

–"so if you arent using it for that "extra performance" … WHAT are you using it for … strutting around ???"

Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece. It will last longer and you don't have to wonder if you're going to be stuck somewhere with a ripped jacket if you have some faith in the seams. It provides peace of mind, and confidence in your gear.

–"oh come on … you came on here trying to "justify" your purchase … what makes dead bird "BETTER" ????

its not like people climb, hike, ski any harder in em than without em …

use what you like … but its the PERSON that matters, not the brand"

I find it funny that you think this is the argument. Nobody said it WASN'T the person. You are the only one who confused us touting Arcteryx as superior to mean we believe the person is inferior. You said that, not us.

Of course the person is more important, and of course we'll manage to do what we are gonna do regardless of what we bring. if we increase our safety (through warmth and dryness) and we increase our comfort (through breathability) by using superior gear, we increase the overall happiness of our trip AND our likelihood of completing challenges. You can write entire books on morale alone.

–"so the service aint important to you? … well sorry to say it is important to quite a few people … and dead bird does not have "service" any better than the aformentioned brands/retailers"

You misunderstand me. I don't care what Arcteryx's policy is for intentionally destroying my own gear. I care about their service for craftsmanship and expected life, and their policy looks fine to me for that. If OR wants to include wasteful destruction, you can feed your pets all the clothing you want. Get the vet on speed-dial.

–"weird … even whe i had a gutless tercel … i never had any issues passing slow semis on the highway … if you did i suggest a remedial driving lesson ;)"

I suggest you stop using the word "slow," since I didn't say "slow." The implication is that there are highway scenarios that a BMW will handle safer than a base-level vehicle. You can't even dispute that… it's fact. It doesn't matter if you haven't experienced it. Judging by this conversation, I'd attribute that to you living far from other human beings…

"I drive an M5 and a Hyundai"

I like this combination!

Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece. It will last longer and you don't have to wonder if you're going to be stuck somewhere with a ripped jacket if you have some faith in the seams. It provides peace of mind, and confidence in your gear.

you bought a FLEECE jacket, not a rocket … i OWN dead bird fleece jackets .. and ill tell you right now that its not any more durable than any other MEC piece … my T3 has been through quite a bit after 2+ years and im not talking about the washing machine ;)

I find it funny that you think this is the argument. Nobody said it WASN'T the person. You are the only one who confused us touting Arcteryx as superior to mean we believe the person is inferior. You said that, not us.

Of course the person is more important, and of course we'll manage to do what we are gonna do regardless of what we bring. if we increase our safety (through warmth and dryness) and we increase our comfort (through breathability) by using superior gear, we increase the overall happiness of our trip AND our likelihood of completing challenges. You can write entire books on morale alone.

ahhh … but dead birds arent "superior" gear, they are the same as any other decent brand … if they were every damn person would be using them on the craziest things … they arent in general

its not like someone is dying because they didnt wear it ;)

I suggest you stop using the word "slow," since I didn't say "slow." The implication is that there are highway scenarios that a BMW will handle safer than a base-level vehicle. You can't even dispute that… it's fact. It doesn't matter if you haven't experienced it. Judging by this conversation, I'd attribute that to you living far from other human beings…

ive never had a problem passing semis in my gutless tercel … PERIOD … short of some semi trailer chasing after you in terminator 3 ;)

again i suggest a remedial driving course =P

I think the bottom line is that Eric climbs (although I can't in any way corroborate this) and does not backpack. For those that climb, they are more likely to destroy any piece of clothing against granite over a shorter period of time than a backpacker, skier, or trail runner. Maybe his expectations are so high, that a jacket should be impervious to climbing 'wear and tear.' I don't know if that is reasonable or not. I do know, however, how the additional quality applies to my backpacking, skiing, and scrambling activities based on many years of using inferior products that in the real world, did not meet my expectations in fit, durability, finish, and overall performance. The ability to depend on gear that will not. fail in the backcountry is paramount to me and I suspect, many others.

"Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece."

I know you get out a lot, but unless you've bought and tested an Arcterx shell* since the thread started, I don't think you can personally attest to this. Unless by bargain brand, you mean "Target special" and not the respected mid-level brands that most people here use with great success. :)

*ETA: since the argument seems to now be about their shells and not the fleece you already own.

" never had a problem passing semis in my gutless tercel … PERIOD … short of some semi trailer chasing after you in terminator 3 ;)"

Come to Alberta and you may change you mind. Tercels get gobbled up. Although I have found some of the fastest drivers in Canada located in Vancouver.

Spelt, do you own a good Arcteryx shell?

i definitely climb more than anything else these days …

the bottom line is that plenty of people use all types of brands … and dont do anything less because they arent using a certain brand (cheap or expensive)

look at the particular PIECE … and how you are going to use it …

the majority of people here get along just fine using whatever brand they use .. and arent any "less" safe because of it

us what you want … its what you DO with it that matters

;)

oh … and david … ive lived in alberta before and i take a climbing trip to the rockies there every year

Dave, no, I don't. I don't see how that's relevant when it was Max making the claim that I suggested he can't support with his experience. I made no claims of either superior-or inferiority, only (1) called him out on his definitive claim that I'm betting he can't back up, and (2) pointed out that most people here don't have Arcterx shells and still do just fine.

"I know you get out a lot, but unless you've bought and tested an Arcterx shell* since the thread started, I don't think you can personally attest to this. Unless by bargain brand, you mean "Target special" and not the respected mid-level brands that most people here use with great success. :)"

You're right, I was speaking from an intended use perspective, i.e, the reason I would drop the clams.

I'm on my third Arcteryx piece, but the Fleece was the first "major" one and judging by some of the first-hand responses here, not the last.

"Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece"

You're giving Arcteryx too much credit with this whole durability/abrasion/lasts forever praise. Goretex sells the same nylon + membrane sandwiches to Arcteryx as they do to a hundred other companies. Arc just sews, bonds and seam tapes these pre-made fabrics into a jacket.

As long as they don't mess up the construction, the jacket is simply as durable as the fabrics selected and as waterproof as the Goretex membrane provided. There's no fairy dust here – a given fabric isn't more abrasion resistant if Arcteryx uses it rather than Outdoor Research, nor does Goretex Pro Shell become more waterproof if it comes thru Arcteryx's Chinese factory rather than Mountain Hardware's.

Arcteryx does a nice job with their sewing, but tons of other companies sew solid jackets as well. Aside from instances of poor construction (which all companies have occasionally), the materials determine the jackets performance far more than the brand. You could argue Arc has fewer instances of poor construction, but there's really no way we can assess that based on a few anecdotal stories. The reality is that many brands are making excellently sewn products using materials provided from Gore-Tex and others.

"Normal wear like brushing up against thornbushes, scraping on rocks, going through the washing machine, and getting hit with water for weeks will do a lot less to an Arcteryx piece than a bargain-brand piece."

I hate the be the bearer of bad news, but my alpha SV delaminated at the hem while in the washing machine. This was the 2nd time I ever washed it. Front load washer, gentle cycle, atsko sport wash. I do this with all my technical shells. My 6oz marmot essence ($70 on sale, and a bargain in my book) has been washed 5+ times and has no signs of delamination. My eVent Rab has no signs of delamination either. Delamination on arcteryx jackets is notorious if you search online. This is very very different then delamination of the wp/b layer from the face fabric, which occurs universally and naturally after extended use and uv exposure.

I am NOT hard on my gear. This to me is unacceptable, especially at the price arcteryx charges. I'm sorry, I just don't think you have the experience to attest to this statement you've made.

The only times I've had gear fail on the trail was from seams, so I count good seams very highly when I consider new gear. Besides, Arcteryx is definitely using good face fabrics, even if their membrane is the same as another Gore-Tex piece.

This is definitely marketing, so take it with a grain of salt, but here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPBnc7L3-8w

The newer shells use N80p-X fabric, which is good stuff. I don't know of any other companies that use such a high quality Gore laminate. After doing some research, I would classify my opinions in the following way:

Arcteryx definitely sells their brand. They sell a concept, and a style, and they jack up prices to match. They are not the end-all, be-all of outdoors gear. They are only marginally better than everyone else, and equal to or worse than some.

However, many individual Arcteryx pieces appear to be, and are reviewed as, substantially well made garments with great durability records and a performance record over time that usually surpasses their intended use or lifetime and is consistent with a good backpacking investment.

And now THAT being said, I think if I were to have unlimited $$$ for gear right this minute, I would NOT buy an Arcteryx shell since the delamination is such an issue. I believe delamination is inevitable in ANY rain shell, so you might as well spend $150 and not $650.

I would, however, buy a technical softshell jacket, something for serious winter use.

"Come to Alberta and you may change you mind. Tercels get gobbled up."

In 2009 I drove across Alberta on a scooter at 70km/hr on Hwy 1. Actually I did it twice because I was riding from Vancouver to southern Ontario and back. Alberta and Sask were easily the least stressful part of the trip. The notion of getting gobbled up in a Tercel is comical. It's not even scary on a scooter. The scariest part of the trip was the moose in Northern Ontario.

I thought I'd played my fair share of "Dodge the Wildlife" when I lived in NY until I made the drive from Banff to Washington starting at 4am (big mistake.) I lost count of all the elk and deer I encountered on the road and suffered several emotionally significant experiences. Never seen that many on or near the road before or since.

That sounds like a wonderful road trip though and I've never had that problem in Alberta or BC during daylight.

The only thing comical is that you ride a scooter on the highway. I am in tears. LOL.

Try driving downtown Calgary instead of through the mountains. Maybe in the Winter. Or through the industrial park SE or maybe the north highway put of Edmonton to GP, etc. You cherry picker, you.

By the way, it looks like you had a pace vehicle following you. Looks to me that you would have less of an issue with a CAR FOLLOWING YOU keeping a distance between you and rogue truck drivers. Funny stuff.

Seriously, your post has made my day.

Now go find out the elusive Mchale cuben fabric and report back.

Edited for spelling because I was laughing too hard.

Everyone's gettin' real testy! Myself included…

Max,

I've learned not to take any of this personally. On BPL, you'll notice that general smug/jackass-ness comes in cycles…it's winter and people become grouchy (myself included). Come around spring, and everyone will be shi*tting rainbows again :)