Should I be carrying more Dead Birds?

Is it just me or am I the other one who doesn't think Arcteryx is nothing special. It's marketing, I went tried to walk into thier booth at OR 2012 and some worker guy stopped me and told me I needed an appointment. That put me off, do do still own a jacket of theirs, I own it because of the fit and style. It has nothing at all to do with the logo.

I was looking at the Phase AR Hoody. Might pick one up!

For what it's worth, I've got a couple of Arc'Teryx products: a wool baselayer and a pair of hiking/climbing shorts. I got them at 50+% off and they've worked well for the 3-4 years I've had them, but aren't noticeably superior to similar gear in the closet.

If you're willing to spend the money and are looking for outer layers, I'm partial to Westcomb — a Canadian company that still manufactures in Canada — it was founded in 2005 by guys who left Arc'Teryx, disappointed in where Arc'Teryx was going and created their own brand. As far as I can tell, Arc'Teryx used to be higher-quality than it is now, and maybe it once deserved a price premium. But it shifted to a lifestyle brand, which increased prices (and ad budget) and lowered quality.

I think of Westcomb as the "true" Arc'Teryx these days. And because it's not a lifestyle brand, the sales are often better when they clear out models between seasons. You can find previous-year-model Westcomb gear for 60-80% off if you are patient, and the stuff is awesome. I don't think any of it is the lightest gear out there, but the quality and durability have been impressive.

I've never even heard of Westcomb. Where's a good place to wait for sales?

Like others have commented, different lines of the same brand will have different quality. I do think once you get up in the $300 for a technical shell (either pant of jacket), the quality better be good, and usually is.

I also think it's important to define your needs for a piece of gear. Do you stick to trails or take more adventurous off-trail excursions?

I use the Alpha SL Pullover, it's made of Paclite. In short, I love it, and it has held up well to bouts with 12-ft high thorn bushes and other various brush. It has yet to wet out under prolonged rain (though it's inevitable at some point). I paid $200-ish for it.

So while I wouldn't drop 2 bills on a simple Dead Bird baselayer, I would for a shell.

Always a trade-off on your gear list depending on your wallet. Choose wisely.

Also,

I think Ryan just reviewed the Westcomb LT jacket near the end of January. That particular piece had mixed results.

"The zippers are awesome, too, so I can't agree with the zipper critique yet. It's almost TOO easy to zip and unzip. Very smooth."
My complaint with Arcteryx zippers is that they're tossing on entry level zips on expensive coats where they should be using high performing zips. It amazes me they have the audacity to charge $850 for a coat while trying to save a few bucks off their cost with a mediocre zip.

As I mentioned I earlier, their $850 Micon jacket uses a water resistant (uretek) zipper (probably a YKK AquaGuard but RiRi, Tizip etc all make them). These zips are 'water resistant' because there is a small crack down the middle, which only grows wider with wear over time as the slider wears on the uretek coating. They're also prone to 'tenting' where the zipper develops a V shape over time which further widens this crack. Either way a pool of water quickly runs thru once the coat has seen decent use. With a lot of use, the waterproof coating can peel/flake right off. They're good for secondary zips like pockets that see a lot less use, but they're second rate for a main zip.

The proper zipper to use would be a quality waterproof zipper like the YKK AquaSeal or RiRi AquaZip. These zippers have teeth with rubber on the sides of the teeth, so when you do them up you get a complete seal. More importantly, they stay waterproof over time. They also have a lot less drag so they're easier to start and nicer to do up.

I think this zipper situation is a great microcosm of the whole Arcteryx situation. While Arc is finally putting quality zips on most of their coats (about half of them use these now), they've been dragging their feet on this for years. The Arcteryx of 10 years ago would have been the first one to incorporate something like this – realizing it's a competitive advantage to have superior technical performance. The Arcteryx of today waits until everyone else is doing it and the customer expects it before finally acting. The same attitude can be seen in many other areas from membranes to face fabrics.

"Eric, the Corolla and Civic are very durable but the quality sucks – hard plastic interiors…"
You're mixing quality with luxury. The interior of a Honda might not be made of mahogany, but functions great and lasts forever so its quality stuff. Lacking quality would be my friends 1990's Buick interior where nearly every piece broke or fell off.

"The interior of a Honda might not be made of mahogany, but functions great and lasts forever so its quality stuff." Not my experience. The hard plastics scratch and crack over time. Our 2011 Pilot dash has worn like crap, not to mention the rattles and squeeks throughout the vehicle. This is the same issue plaguing a lot of Honda models right now, not to mention Toyota. Ironically, many of these models that have issues are either made in Canada or the US. I define quality not as luxury but as texture, fit and finish, and quality of material used. All of which should last over the long term.

For shits and giggles, go sit in a new Civic and then the new Buick (any model) and then report back.

Arc'teryx is very innovative and their products are well made, beautifully designed, and contain top-shelf materials. I live 10 minutes from their HQ and check-out their discounted gear frequently. Generally, I purchase either Arc'teryx or Patagonia. From my experiences, Arc'teryx makes the best Gore-Tex shell on the planet – I've tried a bunch of different brands. I also like their AC2 waterproof packs. They're heavy, but where I live waterproofness and extreme durability are paramount. Patagonia makes better base layers.

The good:

Great, innovative design and excellent materials. Fit is generally athletic and the cut is usually unsurpassed in the industry, feels like a tailored piece. Warranty is pretty good, though not as easy as Patagonia. Performance is excellent.

The bad:

While innovative, sometimes I think their gear is over designed and is therefore lacking or over-engineered. It's also bleeding-edge tech – sometimes. For example, I have a dually belay parka, which is a $550 [+ 12% tax here in Canada] jacket. It's a great piece, but the hood doesn't have any volume controls. So, it's fine with a helmet on, but when you're sitting around camp, you look like the grim reaper and it interferes with your headlamp and visibility. None of their soft shells and non-goretex insulated jackets have this control. Even Patagonia's minimalist Houdini jacket has a hood volume control. This is something I would expect in a $600+ jacket. I've owned two AC2 packs and while I love them, both have suffered from failures/breakage with the laminated parts. I just had a softshell replaced b/c all the laminated seams started to blow-out. Of course the prices are ridiculous. $300 for a pair of gloves! Seriously? They're nice gloves, but the next best thing in the marketplace is much warmer and 1/2 the price. A big chunk of Arc'teryx gear is made in China now and the prices don't reflect this. The more complicated items are made in Canada, but I'm sure this is changing.

So, in a nutshell, I wouldn't buy Arc'teryx b/c it's Arc'teryx. I'd only buy it if it's going to meet your needs better. I never pay MSRP for their stuff, I only buy at the factory sales.

My only piece of Arcteryx kit is a Theta AR goretex shell. Its 3 years old and made in China. I was bummed to see it wasn't Canadian made (apparently its luck of the draw) but its what they had at REI where i got it on sale.

Despite being made in China, the quality is there. Every stitch, every cut, is dead straight and looks perfect. Its really pretty impressive to look over in detail. Its in another league of detail quality compared to my RAB Latok bib shells. Is there a functional difference due to manufacturing? I doubt it.

I bought it for the fit. Just the right torso shape, just the right arm and torso length. The hood is also stellar and i love having it separate from the collar. Helmet or no helmet, the hood is perfect and never in the way.

I use it for snowboarding, fall/spring/summer raincoat, and for hiking, backpacking, "mountaineering", etc. As a snowboarder, I'm on my ass and crashing a lot. Being on the ice coasts, sliding down icey mountains on my back is nothing new. It's held up perfectly, literally looks like new. It's heavy for an everyday raincoat, but i'm always comfortable in it around town, etc.

My only flaw with it is that while wearing a backpack, my hip belt must have been rubbing on the waist cinch cord inside the coat. I noticed that on the high spot created by the cord inside and the outter nylon is wearing. Just this one tiny spot on one side. Its fine now, but if it gets worse i'll try to have Arcteryx repair/replace it with REI as my backup plan.

Max – Occasionally for sale at departmentofgoods.com [backcountry.com's outlet} and as someone noted sometimes deeply discounted at smaller online shops. Google "westcomb" and some of the screen scrapers like Nextag will spot the bargains.

I really like Westcomb products. I have a couple of jackets, a pair of hiking pants, and a heavyweight fleece hoody that's terrific. This company tends to make stuff with an athletic fit, which to me indicates a focus on technical use rather than appearance. I've reviewed one of the jackets and the pants at BackpackGearTest.org if you are interested in details.

Richard

Westcomb is good stuff. Same athletic fit as Arcteryx, more innovative, made in Canada and less expensive. Plus they use both NeoShell and eVent membranes. Their 9oz Focus LT rain jacket probably has the best cut for tall slim guys of any UL rain jkt currently available.

Hey, I'm a tall slim guy! I'll check them out, thanks for the info!

Agreed, Westcomb is a very very good alternative to Arcteryx. My GF has a westcomb event shell…I can't tell the difference between it and any arcteryx piece i've owned in the past. Quality stuff. LIke Dan mentioned, Arcteryx is dragged down by the Giant Goretex Ball and Chain…really stifles their products, but of course there are a lot of politics and commercial reasons behind obeying the Gore juggernaut.

"the reliability graphs from consumer reports which you quoted, speak for themselves"

Yes, they do. The current 328 is as reliable as the current civic. But offers much better handling, acceleration, braking, safety features, looks, luxury, fit and finish, paint quality, etc.

What's your point.

I'm sorry, but you really should have done you homework on the Super Mica (and your other gear) before heading out to the bush for winter backpacking…. poor form.

Everything I've owned from Arcteryx has been incredibly durable… for the most part… Atom LT/SV, Alpha LT/SV, Theta SV…. but then again, I am not paying anywhere near full price (or even 50% off) of this, if at all.

Dead Bird is used by my colleagues in Spec Ops In Afghanistan- if it holds up for them, it's going to hold up to your endeavors with your college outdoor club.

But as with all gear, the same rule applies: the more durable, the less light. And vice versus. The key is finding the balance you need….

I ski 100+ days in the shell that I backpack in. Is it heavy, (18ozs)? For many of you, yes. But I charged through trees, scraped it against granite (and even barbed wire) and it still looks brand new….

Hope this helps…

Yes, they do. The current 328 is as reliable as the current civic. But offers much better handling, acceleration, braking, safety features, looks, luxury, fit and finish, paint quality, etc.

What's your point.

the point is that the 3 series will costs substantially more initially, more in maintenance, more in gas … and not do a darn thing legally better than any civic, corolla, elantra, etc …

as millions of the aforementioned car owners who use em just fine can attest to every day

basically youre paying to "look" and "feel" good … and "luxury" ;)

"I'm sorry, but you really should have done you homework on the Super Mica (and your other gear) before heading out to the bush for winter backpacking…. poor form."

I bought it before reviews existed, so I could test it. High risk, potentially high reward. I like to live dangerously and wasn't complaining. I returned the jacket and got a nicer one in it's stead for no cost to me.

Babak, if this is because I called you out in the Patagonia thread, grow up. I'm not humoring you if you want to start a BPL rivalry. Go hang out with your "contacts" in TNF and your "colleagues" in special ops, you don't have the time for the likes of me.

No Eric. You are paying for far more performance, better ride, much higher fit and finish and tactile feel. Better steering, handling, acceleration, and even better gas mileage than some Civics. Now add the look, both inside and out, the quality of the paint, the interior plastics, the small panel gaps, and the incredible technology and we can see where the extra money went. Turbos that produce lots of power but have mileage better than the Si version of the Civic. Direct injection on the BMW, airbags in places the Civic didn't know was possible…I could on and on.

I loved Top Gear's comparison of the Toyota Prius and the BMW M3, the latter of which has a V8. Around their track and driven flat out, the Prius achieved under 20 mpg. The BMW driven less than flat out but at the same speed as the Prius achieved better fuel economy. The point being that it is how you drive rather than what you drive. Lets see. Better potential gas mileage and yet 444 hp when you want to have some fun. Neat. Fuel economy is not the only marker of performance. Not even close,

Did I mention the free maintenance on new BMW's?

This is what you get with Arcteryx. Better everything for the price. No question. Whether or not you can or want to afford it is up to you. But I find it incredible disingenuous when the posters on this thread try to discount the product simply because of my previous statement. These are the same people that won't buy silnylon and rush to cuben at 3 times the price. I won't buy cuben but I don't ignore the performance benefits of the product.

My family has owned Volkswagens for 15 years, relentlessly. A good allegory for the german-made BMW. The occasional covered maintenance is worth it for the absolutely amazing drive of every vehicle we've bought, except the Routan. That one sucks.

This is so off-topic, but I'm not upset about it. Haha!

As long as the OP is okay with the thread drift….; )

This is what you get with Arcteryx. Better everything for the price. No question. Whether or not you can or want to afford it is up to you. But I find it incredible disingenuous when the posters on this thread try to discount the product simply because of my previous statement. These are the same people that won't buy silnylon and rush to cuben at 3 times the price. I won't buy cuben but I don't ignore the performance benefits of the product.

oh david

TELL ME … what are you doing "better" LEGALLY with your BEE-MAH … the transcanada only goes so fast .. and you definitely dont need one to max out the limits … nor ANY highway in canada … you arent street racing are you ????

tell me EXACTLY what you did with your "better performance" in your dead bird … will you go any faster, higher, harder with it????

what PERFORMANCE benefit does a dead bird have over some other piece like OR or EB?????? … name me ONE thing that has been done in a dead bird that cant be done with anything else …

i cordially invite you to squamish, well do the grand wall together … i wont wear any dead birds, you wear all the ones you want … well split the leads … you should be much stronger than me with the fancy logos ;)

as for BEEMAHS vs priuses … heres the comparison that matters for LEGAL driving in real life

Sorry, the way you framed it was that you in a dangerous spot due to your gear failing…… Glad you made it back safe.

(I also purchased a Super Mica prior to the reviews coming out…… and I was disappointed with the durability…. I've neve backpacked in the NE- but I found it not too flimsy for any thing with a pack weighing more than 10lbs)

Cheers

Sorry Eric, you will need to read my post again. You rely on stats and links without considering real world tests and specifications. You are using EPA standards and ignoring real world driving habits or more importantly, real tests. Did you look up what i posted? Didn't think so. You are lacking the aptitude to either read properly, comprehensive what you are reading or are reading every third word. Now you are going to talk to me about traffic laws? Make the incorrect assumption that I am racing on the streets?

Do you know anything about efficiency? If a large motor works less hard to produce the same amount of power and torque, it is more efficient and will use less fuel to run. It will also last longer. Prius batteries have had limited long term durability. I will ignore the fires.

You are using EPA standards and ignoring how someone actually drives. I surmise you generally take the bus.

Not to mention cherry picking. Of course the Prius gets better gas mileage if you drive easy but that is hard with greater levels of traffic or have you forgotten where you live? That also wasn't my point. I was showing that power and decent mileage are a possible marriage. I didn't even bring up diesel motors.

Ah, what the hell. The BMW 320 diesel can get….67 mpg ( still out performs any Civic while holding onto all of the other aforementioned benefits). Oh and this beats the Prius as well based on manufacturer stats. Regardless, one won't get close to these figures in either car but since you continue to post manufacture stats, I will oblige.

How are Arcteryx products better than the competition? Once again, you could re-read my posts but I suspect that this will take some effort on your part so I will summarize: higher manufacturing quality, tighter seam tolerances with less tape, better zippers, better designed hoods, athletic fit, higher levels of durability, much better ride, braking, handling, safety options, ability to avoid obstacles, excellent warranty, very high re-sale value, and the list goes on.

Oh, and I don't own a BMW. A Honda and an Acura. There goes your third assumption.

"outdoor gear is so good in general that brands are irrelevant"

Not to you they aren't. You take ever opportunity to slam 'Dead Bird' and "PataGucci" and even Mchale any chance you get.