performance between single and double walled shelters

"Actually I still have not had my hands on the partial fabric interior for the Notch so I am not sure between that and the fabric one."

It feels very warming.

"Full double wall. Well yes there is some mesh on the Scarps but just enough to let some air circulation…"

In the UK the Scarp1 has a cult following, from those who aim for the more cold windy situations due to its ground-hugging fly and little-mesh inner, but to me its quite a weight.

"BTW, several at Outdoor Magic laughed at me when I suggested the Scarp as a good alternative to the TN and Akto (that was a few years ago and before I was part of TT…)"

They are different. The TN LC, which I own, it is 850g total incl extra pegs, which is lighter than the Scarp1's 1.36Kg. The TN LC can't do snow loading, it hasn't the geometry (tall steep side) or support (like the Scarp's crosspoles).

The Akto is a much heavier tent, it has a cult following, in my view a crazy cult, its small and yet not light and expensive. Also can't do snow loading so much either.

The Notch is more of a competitor to the TN LC as its got more length and height but is 0.7KG (actually 850g with the poleset for like-for-like vs TN LC 850g). If you lower the poles to their minimum the head height is still higher than the TN LC, the length unaffected but this allows the poles to widen a fair bit and its the same width as the TN LC inside. But the Notch is less flappy because the fabric is thicker and all the fly angles are tensioned better than the TN LC.

I've just now lowered the Notch in the garden, I don't have adjustable poles so I just lowered by pushing the poles in the earth, measured, tightened, repeated in stages til lowering stopped working – what happens eventually is the fly loses tension and will become flappy at about 105cm pole length. In that mode the fly is as close to the ground as the fly on the TN LC.

Roger,
In the unlikely event that you steeled yourself long enough to go back to this thread, or perhaps had to in order to do your police thing, I must confess that I am just too lazy too go back and dig out your definition of freestanding. It's because I'm spending too much time on the computer when I should be doing other more constructive things, like sleeping. But as I recall, it was something about a freestanding tent being one that assumes its final shape without the aid of the pegs (that eventually must go in anyway, along with guy lines, of course, to anchor the thing and keep the wind from blowing it over or away). Sorry I can't do better right now, but I've got to get my wood crib rebuilt, the firewood stacked for next winter, and a new pack done in time for a good backpack before the bugs arrive in force here. At my stage of development, it has become necessary to redesign, rebuild, and drop a few pounds of pack weight every year in order to stay in the game.

Note to Mike S: Having had similar experiences and witnessed the same patterns and practices you have, I understand how you feel; however, this site originates from the US of A. Cowboys, greed is good, and all that. Toughen up. Goodness and purity come to us later, if at all. If you stick to the facts and merits of the gear, and not the personalities, threads like this one will be much more rewarding, maybe even helpful to Mik, who began it with a simple question.

Hi Sam

Yeah, I could find references to 'my definition', but I could not find the source. Yet another good myth? :-)

Ah well, no matter. As someone else wrote (approximately), 'freestanding = kite'.

Cheers

Samuel,

that reminds me of the fellow that stood up on stage one morning at Woodstock after a proprietor's hamburger stand burned down and he said into the microphone something like:

"even though he is a greedy capitalist hamburger peddlar please donate some $ for him to rebuild his stand"

Always figured he had the munchies and compromised his left-wing views so he could get some food Lol. Some good lessons learned that morning.

BTW I am the one that said long ago that a free-standing tent is called a kite after watching my buddies do the same thing after repeated warnings about aerodynamics and specific gravity.

Why is a free-standing a kite? I can imagine two reasons, if you don't peg it down it down (at all or properly) it maintains it shape rather than flattens and can be blown away, and in general the free-standing comes from hopes which have a greater proportion of vertical surfaces.
Are those the reasons?

The parallel I draw with geodesic vs tunnel/tarp is hang gliders vs paragliders. Hang gliders are more aerodynamic, have a faster maximum airspeed, and are typically more twitchy to control. Paragliders, on the other hand, form a wing during forward motion by means of air pressure differences between the under side and the upper side of the canopy. The paraglider canopy will only fly, and carry its pilot, if the wing is formed before launch. It is much less efficient at using lift than a hang glider. Conversely this makes the paraglider more stable, being less susceptible to quick changes in conditions.

Stuart. I don't understand the aerodynamic principals to tent geometry you are describing. Are you saying that a tunnel/tarp is better?

I thought a geodesic shape was more about more useful internal space with adding snow-loading capability, the height is available for more of the width with relatively short sections of unsupported fabric? Geodesics all seem very heavy to me, more a mountain basecamp type solution than thru-hike solution, but I never tried one.

I had a tunnel once, it would bounce and flop all over the place wacking my head with hard pole, but it did have a clever tensioner which basically turned it back into an A-frame at the hoops, but it still had a long unsupported area which was challenging to make tense and the bathtub sagged so much my wife used it and woke inside a swimming pool. I tried it for 3 nights, my wife for 2 nights and we sold it. That was called a Vango TBS Spirit 200+ . Look at this video of all the sagging wrinkled flysheet, apply wind in your mind's eye….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE4eq6TlbGM

Single-hope structures I prefer to tunnel just from hands-on experience, I preferred the hoop ends at head-foot as the vertical side it makes is then benefiting the headroom when lying down and harder to touch fly in the night at the foot end. The downside is when you sit up your head has a very narrow area to move in.

If this geometry was made in simpler lighter design, with plenty of height, it would be brilliant. Extending to two vestibules would be a doddle.

Not many tents like that, and TT doesn't do any, although the Moment's optional hoop has a little bit of that benefit. Hoops traversing the left/right, often leaves a long supported area right where the head is, add with lightweight fabrics and its like sleeping next to a crisp packet (think Neoair 360degs around you!). The TT has this geometry with the Moment and the Scarp but both use quieter heavier fabrics and optional hoop support.

Fundamentally, I prefer classic A-frame shapes, straight lines less to move, having the height in just one central area is simply easy to live in.

There is a slight worry with the Notch beyond what I posted in other threads, the unsupported area between the poles, its only a small tiny worry but I was thinking it might benefit from a section of pole there, but that is more complication, more weight, etc , just unsupported areas tend to cause flapping noise.

"Third, hopefully the OP is still around given that was his FIRST POST and apart from the thread drift, perhaps we can simply post 'possibilities' to his question and get away from all of the 'spy games' stuff. What say you, Mike?"

Yeah I am still here. I am on 3 cycling forums apart from this camping one and all of them at some point or another have the occasional thread that degenerate into slinging matches. One difference is that the moderators eventually put a lock on the thread and don't let it get worse and worse.

Hi Nigel

> Why is a free-standing a kite? I can imagine two reasons, if you don't peg it down it down
> (at all or properly) it maintains it shape rather than flattens and can be blown away,

You got it in one with the bolded bit. More than a few people have reported that their free-standing pop-up has taken off in the wind, like a kite. Barbed wire fences and thorn trees have been mentioned in the same breath.

Actually, my objection is mainly to the way some tents are sold as 'free-standing' with no warnings. That advertising is, to my mind, grossly irresponsible, and can be a serious danger to a novice. In my opinion, all tents should be secured with stakes and guys.

Cheers

Nigel, the late hour is causing me to believe I'm a lot more coherent than I really am. In my reply I equated free-standing with geodesic. Maybe that was a flaw. Still, the hang glider analogy was that something set up for maximum aerodynamic efficiency has to be tied down when at rest, otherwise the slightest gust will cause it to be picked up by the wind with minimal effort. I've witnessed 10+ lb freestanding tents loaded with gear do just that when they weren't pegged down, because they were taut and there was no give to the elements. The paraglider, laying down on the ground, is much more difficult to move en masse because it has no shape of its own. The structure comes when it's flying, and to launch a paraglider takes practice and purpose – it can't really be done accidentally. Remove a peg or two from a tunnel tent or a tarp and it'll flap around in the wind but it's much less likely than a free-standing tent to get picked up and sent tumbling around over a long distance.

I'm the moderator of a forum with >3500 members and I seldom have to expel personalizing members, I think its approx annual I apply the hammer, a polite warning a little more often. Sorry you had to experience this here.

So, what's your current concern single vs double wall shelter? I would offer looking at your posts, the shelter is only part of the total system, the other two being your sleeping bag and your mat. Single-wall TT will tend to not suffer condensation so much, but if you do get into a humid cool situation it will drip on you, and be a bit more prone to spitting rain so consider what is on the outside of your sleeping bag, and be generally cooler (good in hot, bad in cold) so pair with the thickness of your bag. Apart from that… both single / dual can be made to work, as you've witnessed with all the views expressed.

What is your current thinking of your selection, and why?

My individual view is the TT Notch is worth consideration as it can be lowered to cover wind, raised to cover low-wind / condensation and is long with a high roof to match your height. I offer that point of view without an agenda or bias, apart from I just bought a Notch so I'm emerging from the honeymoon and not entered the divorce stage.

Roger, I've never camped in snow or ice or on rock, always above-freezing earth. I was wondering how I'd cope with adverse pegging conditions. I had an idea a "free standing" tent would solve a lot of the problems for me – keep its basic tent shape without pegs and I only have to solve the tent-keep-on-ground problem of which I was my thinking my body weight primarily.

From UK, I live in California and I'm preparing to camp October onwards, 10,000ft is…… new territory for me….

I'm currently thinking the TT Notch probably can do cool (30-60F) fine but I'm thinking another solution for -20F +20F

In the UK, it never snows when its "cold", the biggest altitude is 4500ft and cold comes from across a warm ocean. The USA however….

Currently, I probably only got 2 things I need, a sleeping bag I think can do -20C and…… a willingness to give a try.

I was thinking…. the Scarp1 for winter? Due to double-wall little-mesh and crossing-poles for snow loading?

Single-skin in cold. Baffling. Not saying wrong, simply baffling, beyond my experience.

> Single-hope structures I prefer to tunnel just from hands-on experience, I preferred the hoop ends at head-foot

The problem with the single hoop on the long side is the hoop needs to be very long, hence relatively heavy and (most important) vulnerable. It also tends to bend sideways along its length when under heavy tension.

> Not many tents like that, and TT doesn't do any

Isn't that precisely the TT Rainbow? Single hoop on the long side

You are correct, I'd forgot that one. It only offers a mesh inner and single vestibule. Lightweight option 34oz with liner. Double Rainbow provides two vestibules. Now I look at it again ….. good specifications.

What are folk meaning by 'performance'?

The only major difference is that a double wall will hide any condensation, and adds a little warmth.

+1 agreed on your definition.

The Notch is double wall for the same weight as single wall Contrail. Different shapes though.

Just looking for the lightest solo shelters, from memory…. the Scarp is the only part-mesh double-mesh TT. The Notch, SS1 partially solid lower sides options. Moment, Rainbow liner options is all-mesh inner. Contrail, Sublite don't offer liners. So I'd tend to say for hot+dry its the Sublite, for warm+wet its the Contrail, for cooler is the Moment, Notch, SS1 and for cold its the Scarp.

There is quite a spectrum of individual preferences, there are those using single-wall in lower temps that I'd deem appropriate for double-wall.

Someone start a gun thread.
I want to shoot myself.

A guy at work has 26 guns Mike, will I ask can you borrow one ;-)

would that be a semi-auto pistol or a revolver. I wonder which is better.

One with two barrels instead of one ;)

"One with two barrels instead of one ;)"

Gotcha covered- :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-DGaNmtA0

BM

"So, what's your current concern single vs double wall shelter? I would offer looking at your posts, the shelter is only part of the total system, the other two being your sleeping bag and your mat. Single-wall TT will tend to not suffer condensation so much, but if you do get into a humid cool situation it will drip on you, and be a bit more prone to spitting rain so consider what is on the outside of your sleeping bag, and be generally cooler (good in hot, bad in cold) so pair with the thickness of your bag. Apart from that… both single / dual can be made to work, as you've witnessed with all the views expressed.

What is your current thinking of your selection, and why?

My individual view is the TT Notch is worth consideration as it can be lowered to cover wind, raised to cover low-wind / condensation and is long with a high roof to match your height. I offer that point of view without an agenda or bias, apart from I just bought a Notch so I'm emerging from the honeymoon and not entered the divorce stage."

Well when I first learned about the TT tents it was via the Squall 2. I thought the Moment was the tent for me but then the Rainbow with the optional inner liner (to stop condensation) was the answer….but now the Notch seems to be the deal for me. I don't use trecking poles but the poles sold by TT to hold the tent up will take the Notch to just under 1kg and still retaining 'some sort' of a double wall. That's if I don't just use a branch I find at the camping area.

I don't think I would put up with condensation dripping on me even if it only happened on occasion. The other concern is that I can see that the TT tents are designed with a high ventilation in mind to combat the condensation issue but would that not make these tents 'feel' colder? In a high wind condition I am more concerned of freezing than the tent blowing over to be honest.

I am 195cm tall at 84 kg so I am tall but not a big man. The Notch's 81cm wide floor would definitely be enough but I also like having my gear inside with me and the Rainbow would accommodate for that though at a slight weight penalty.

On a recent trip (when I was still using a BlackWolf 3/4 3.8cm self inflating mat) in a rainforest after rain I froze through the night even though I was wearing my thermals and jumper inside my 300 down bag….the heat just escaped the body so after that I got an Exped Synth UL mat. Having said that I live in Brisbane Australia and will never use the tent I buy in snow conditions.

Ease of set up is not really a concern looking at the videos of the TT tents….they are all much easier than my current tent.

Thanks for your time Nigel :).

You have Franco's videos of the Notch, here's one of mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YpTI0SeiXQE

I'm fitting a guy attachment near the pole apex that will give me some more flexibility / ease of pitch / wind strength. I forgot to request that in the order.

I'm thinking Notch may not be for you because you are tall, your body will take the room at the ends my intention is to stow my gear. Do you have a packed weight/size maximum? The SS1 , when the partial-solid inner becomes available, probably sounds more like what you'd want, wider for your kit, your tallness will tend to make you sleep diagonal and your kit in one/both of the corner.

BTW I had a specific bike pannier which narrowed my choices. This is my bike pannier, the Notch, 30F rated sleeping bag, stove, mat, comes to 9L of the 20L.

"I'm thinking Notch may not be for you because you are tall, your body will take the room at the ends my intention is to stow my gear. Do you have a packed weight/size maximum? The SS1 , when the partial-solid inner becomes available, probably sounds more like what you'd want, wider for your kit, your tallness will tend to make you sleep diagonal and your kit in one/both of the corner."

I am coming from a 1.85kg tent so to get to or near OR even under the 1kg mark is a real move forward for me. I can see the SS1 has plenty of vestirbule room and I suppose I can change my view and learn to keep my gear in there rather than inside the sleeping quarters with me. I still have plenty of time till August when our next trip is planned for to get the tent choice right….