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performance between single and double walled shelters


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  • #1867942
    John Nausieda
    BPL Member

    @meander

    Locale: PNW

    Fair enough. And then this a bit extensive, but it makes some sense to go out there, What of the illegitimate Gore-tex tents like my Divine Light or the verbotten eVent relics of no true legitimacy yanked by G.E.. International zones are what they are and Japan is hungry lately and cottage gear is $$ but possible. I'm looking forward to what can you buy and having read your solid wrong scenarios I think you are telling the truth as you know it caveat that as your wife knows it true. As does mine.

    #1867949
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    195cm tall =6ft 5inch = very tall. Still, many of the TT will suit. Contrail is a large long high-roof single skin type, your head is well clear of the fabric, you can sit upright with plenty of headroom, lightweight 0.7Kg, for example…. because I'm 175cm I opted for Notch as where my head ends up is still well clear of the inner and I get a double (part mesh) skin and two vestibules but I were a bigger person the mummy-shape might become a problem.

    Franco is I think 173cm and he's got lots of video to show you the different shape spaces inside.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt1Oezq2GQ

    If you go with Contrail, its not 4-season, there is a long slope there which will quickly get loaded with snow, you'd have to get another shelter for colder situations.

    The SS1 is heavier, 0.9Kg but 218cm long, 81cm but if you lower the bathtub floor a little it gets wider.

    Personal choice but I'd always want some vestibule to stow my wet kit and I'd always want some spare space inside for my dry / overnight kit. The Notch for example is quite narrow so if you're big there's less space inside, the SS1 more width but shorter, the specs all on tt.com

    #1867962
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    Mik
    The Moment will be too small for you (I think…)
    I am seam sealing a Notch right now so I measured that for size.
    On a standard mat I don't see any problems , on a thick mat your head may be a bit too close to the mesh..

    I have stolen this shot :
    Notch 76x25 mat

    from Adirondackiteer, that mat is 25"#39;x76" (64x193cm), there is just enough room for the sleeping bag to rest against the mesh. (the fabric wall is a few inches from that)
    The Strato Spire 1 will be similar.
    If you do not use trekking poles you can get dedicated poles for either .
    Franco

    #1867975
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    Franco, I spent some time looking at the dimensions of the Notch and concern it might be too small. I'll know tomorrow, mine is to be delivered. However, comparing this
    http://tarptent.com/photos/nt_dimensions.png
    with this
    http://tarptent.com/photos/ss1_dimensions.png

    The Notch appears to be longer than the SS1? The floor length is 108" / 274cm and at those lengths the inner is 19.2" / 48cm above. The SS1 shows as 86" / 218cm. i.e. the Notch is longer?

    This video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt1Oezq2GQ
    compare Notch at 9m59s with the SS1 at 5mins56s.

    There is this diagram, I simply can't understand it, the colours too like each other
    http://tarptent.com/photos/ntss1_dimensions.png

    #1867985
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Hi Mik,
    You are too kind to us.
    Since you asked about getting a single wall Tarptent (brand, not type) for non-winter use, I will stick to what you asked.
    Because you are tall, and therefore need head and foot room to lay down, as well as more room to sit up without hitting your head on the canopy, please also consider the TarpTent Rainbow, which is better on both those counts than the Moment.

    One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended, or hung, rather than pulled solidly taut inside the tent. This can be a problem when the floor starts slipping around, when you move, or on sloped ground. Even if you can adjust to the single wall, this slipping can be vary off-putting to people who are used to more conventional tents.

    Not a word about net vs solid inners, generally, as their relative merits also depend to a large extent on the design of the particular tent. I've been using a relatively heavy (3#) 4' by 7.3' modified Wilderness Equipment Bug Dome for several years, and have found that the netting inner keeps me totally free from the effects of condensation. It would be mostly useless in winter, but that is not what you asked about. Not for high winds in unprotected areas, but very handy in the rain:

    BDguyedBD guyed with pole

    Roger,
    Re: 'Free-standing' is just spin.'
    A while ago you provided a nice definition for 'free-standing' that many posters have adopted. Careful, lest you hoist yourself on your own petard.
    Sam

    #1867993
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    Sam
    "One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended"
    That is not the case with the StratoSpire1, the Rainbow or the Notch.
    (in fact all of the TT have a clipped to the end/corner floor. However you can also un-clip them)
    Here is a photo I have just taken for an Aussie customer (the owner of this Notch)
    Did that to show why I suggest using two guylines to add lateral stability and allow the sides to be opened up compleatly.
    Anyway you can also see that the floor is clipped to the poles in the middle and also to the PitchLock triangles at the end.
    notch floor clipped

    Nigel
    If one needs to, he can sleep sideways inside the SS1.
    Franco
    Everyone is a critic.
    My cat has just spotted a lousy knot . (those guylines are too long for the job…)

    #1868029
    mik matra
    BPL Member

    @mikmik

    Locale: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

    Thank you Samuel for mentioning the Ranibow…I have completely left that out of my short list yet it ticks all my boxes. I need a shelter to be long enough with the sides at the head and feet to arch upwards and sitting in there you get the apex of the tent above your head. Plus side entry and a wide floor….well at 100+cm I'll be happy I think. My current Denali tent is nearly 110cm at the widest but it is not a rectangular shape rather a stretched out diamond and at it's widest is 110cm everywhere else it is less. Vestibule seems skimpy/small not big enough really to fit a 65 litre pack without it leaning onto the mesh inner.

    So I think I am going to got he leap of faith and do the single walled shelter thing…..any last minute hints anyone?

    #1868039
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Sam

    > A while ago you provided a nice definition for 'free-standing' that many posters have
    > adopted. Careful, lest you hoist yourself on your own petard.

    I did? Oh Dear. But I forget where.
    Remind me please?
    (Fading memory, I am sure.)

    Cheers

    #1868069
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    "So I think I am going to got the leap of faith and do the single walled shelter thing…..any last minute hints anyone?"

    Contrail specifics: As the Contrail was the first TT I looked at, I'll offer what I gleaned from looking at reviews and photos. It is a single-skin so it will be colder than dual-skin (by whoever's definition) so bear in mind when pairing with your insulation. There is a little overhang from the fly around the bathtub so horizontal rain can spit through a little more. Use of dry bags and a water-resistant layer to sleeping bag or some other protection for your sleeping bag may be more of a need on those side areas. Whilst condensation will be reduced, keep a cloth handy to wipe down any that might occur, a Buff is an example. It requires one pole at the front, centrally placed, but you can push that one pole to the side slightly for entry/exit. Franco can input use of two poles to make an A-frame. There is an optional pole which is light if you dont use trekking poles.

    Shelter generics: Obviously, it is a new shelter to you, so learn how to pitch such as in garden, try sleeping initially with a fallback option like car-camping whilst you learn a different shelter. The Notch I get today I'm doing garden pitching then doing some nearby low-level overnighters initially before going further. I've done the same with all my previous shelters, 2 tents back I wasn't pitching right and the bathtub floor got full of rain, ooops.

    Reasons I didn't go for the Contrail was I was intended to use in UK and I feared it would not keep horizontal rain out and the added weight of having the mesh at ground level causing a cooling breeze coming off wet grass would mean a heavier sleeping bag, so I then looked at the dual-skin (mesh inner) and then when the partially-solid inner options came out for Notch and SS1 I then focused on the space/weight differences and finally opted for the Notch. As I live in California if all the online research still showed me a surprise, worst case, I could return it easily+cheaply enough, but I'm hoping not to. I still think a different TT for altitude winter but I'm not sure which, the Scarp1 currently the strongest contender.

    #1868070
    Mike Sobr
    Member

    @breeze

    Locale: Southeaster

    I had most of the classic single-walled Tarptents mentioned over the years and have gone to a double-walled tent which is the best of both worlds. I bought a used Lightheart Solo on a whim and desperation and it has turned out to be an enlightening chance.
    None of the negatives and limitations of using a single walled tent and all the positive aspects of a double walled tent for less weight per size.
    If you appreciate a roomier and lighter tent without all the issues it's a no-brainer.

    Single-walled Tarptents do have their place and are loved by many but as you can tell by all the folks that quickly sell them they are definately not for most and the interest in the newer double-walled tents shows that an alternative is needed to fill the gap. With the new breed of double-walled tents they will quickly displace alot of the old style tents for all the obvious reasons and judging by the interest of the new TT double-walled tents you can see where it's heading.

    Also since you are new here and don't know everybody just for clarity as you read this post and all other tent posts look who is writing what and why. At least 2 of the posters on this thread derive income from selling tents and others are friends of theirs and if you don't promote their tents they will chastise and discredit you in many ways. It's interesting to watch and will help you to make a better informed decision. You will see a list of posts they dug up out of the archives about me mentioning how I like and use Tarptents and then a fellow that works at the company posts that I don't like Tarptents to discredit my views and then they say that they couldn't remember that I have one. Also notice how Franco's post belittles my position and he cheers on the other posters negative responses.

    They are really mad at me since for years they posted anonymously about their tents without public disclosure to the new members seeking advice on purchasing a shelter and a few posters complained but I embarrassed them into finally putting the name in the signature area and you will find it there if you look close at the end of their posts. Knowing all the facts and being honest and open should be the beginning of any gear selection discussion without the industry insiders padding the posts and being mistaken for average joe camper since all the newbies have no idea who they are. The next posts will make it all clear:

    #1868074
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    "None of the negatives and limitations of using a single walled tent"

    If the tent fly is wet you cannot separate and must pack the entire thing wet away. So this limitation is the same as a single walled tent.

    #1868091
    Mike Sobr
    Member

    @breeze

    Locale: Southeaster

    Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are. You can wipe the walls down easily. Give one a try and be honest with yourself and you will quickly find out why so many are making the switch to double-wall and loving it.

    Mr. Shires isn't going in that direction for nothing!

    Not sure about the TT but with the Lightheart you won't have all that moisture contact problem like most folks talk about and is the number one reason they are sold off so quickly with cramped space being the other. The new breed of tents cure all the problems and improve all aspects and shortcomings. Change can be good.

    #1868096
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    With a double wall, there's still condensation on the inside of the outer fabric. The inner fabric just keeps you from touching it. If I touch the inside a bit and get some condensation on me it doesn't matter that much.

    #1868098
    Henry Shires / Tarptent
    BPL Member

    @07100

    Locale: Upper Sierra Foothills - Gold Rush Country

    >Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are.

    Mike, always best to check facts before spouting. You just make yourself look silly and, had you bet, you would have lost. David has absolutely nothing to do with Tarptent (and I would know).

    -H

    #1868107
    Mike Sobr
    Member

    @breeze

    Locale: Southeaster

    From his bias and closed-mindedness you would never know he wasn't a 50/50 partner. Why else say things that are so far out of reality to promote an agenda? WE don't need thought police just solid info….folks really are capable of making up their own minds given the proper facts.
    To scare people away from dw tents cuz you "can't wipe the walls down" is more nonsense and quite frankly you should have corrected him instead of backing up the false information. It's the constant one-sided info that keeps folks on this forum from making better decisions…look at all the posts on just this thread from industry insiders it's totally controlled.

    If I even mention another tent option to a poster the same thought police are immediately right there with falsehoods and propaganda.

    "Don't buy that tent..you can't wipe the walls down" Lol.

    #1868109
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    "With a double wall, there's still condensation on the inside of the outer fabric. The inner fabric just keeps you from touching it. If I touch the inside a bit and get some condensation on me it doesn't matter that much." Yep totally correct. However, if the roofline is too low you can be moving around inside apply a point force to the inner and then you get instant rain! The inner fabric is designed to hold back drips of condensation, not rain, and the force you can apply then lets the water in.

    Its better to have a design with limits condensation, and look at location of the pitch.

    #1868114
    Mike Sobr
    Member

    @breeze

    Locale: Southeaster

    I have never used the double-walled TT but at least with the LH Solo the mesh is located in a manner where if you bump it doesn't affect the outer and I have not seen condensation fall into the main tent even when in really humid conditions that would have really wetted and soaked through my other single-walled tents. I guess if you jolted a main support it could happen but the design of the tent helps to eliminate the problem.
    I don't give opinion on anything I don't have first hand experience with and just try to help others make proper decisions.

    #1868128
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    The OP is tall. "Bump" if too low a shelter turns into more of a scrape right along and that definitely lets the damp stuff in (from first hand experience). It wasn't a problem for me til I upgraded to a thicker mat.

    #1868130
    Mike Sobr
    Member

    @breeze

    Locale: Southeaster

    Which shelter are you referring to that dumps damp on the occupant by bumping a mesh wall? Be honest.

    So nobody is misinformed or scared of with disinformation the LH inner mesh has enough give that if you bump it water will not fall on you and I have tested it in really humid conditions that have formerly formed puddles on the floor with a single walled tent.

    #1868133
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    There is always some disagreement about this subject. It seems that condensation always pops up as the main issue, with single walled shelters. Weight is always cited as the big down fall of double walled tents…carry *two* tents??? Most manufacturors have compromised with a waterproof layer and some sort of mesh inner on double walled shelters.

    Modern shelters with fairly new silnylon will not leak when touched. However, after several years of using the same tent or tarp, they do. The silicone coating, not a simple spray on coating, will become damaged and still repel water till they are touched. Spraying them with some form of spray dry does NOT restore the origonal coating. It is more a matter of "How much use on the fabric?" The best way to repair a damaged tent, damage done by water pressure or other mechanical stress, is to repair the coating. Not add a hydropobic spray.

    All fabric are some sort of mesh. Woven fibers of some sort, whatever the weave, is a mesh. This varies from corse "landing" nets with knoted intersections to ultra fine nylon cloth. So, I am a bit confused when Roger says a second skin is the definition of a double walled tent. This implies that that even a mesh inner would count. Yet he was saying it does not. Sorry, Roger, you usually have stuff better thought out, but in this case, I don't buy it. Perhaps you mean a second waterproof layer? No…I am a bit confused…

    Anyway, cuben is a film. Plasitic sheets are films. These are very different animals from woven fibers since these are chemicaly linked. Some plastics do not do this. They pretty much only link in one direction making strands. Spectra or Kevlar for example. (I think…it's been a while…) Some curl tightly together but don't really bond sideways. Anyway, lots of synthetics out there.

    Idealy, you would like a double walled structure that is a perfect insulator. It isn't happening anytime soon. Condensation will only occur where there is a temperatur/humidity difference. Eliminate the difference, no condensation. Weather we are talking a single walled shelter or a mesh lined double walled shelter (or any type of fabric) we get condensation in our tents. How we deal with it is different. Until we have the "perfect" material for tents, that can eliminate the temperature difference at the condensing surface, we live with it.

    There are other things to consider.
    How warm do you want to be? A double walled tent made of two layes of silnylon with only enough ventilation to breath, WILL keep you a lot warmer than one made with loose mosquito mesh.
    How many no-see-ums do you have? Bugs are a big downfall of simple tarp shelters in spring and fall(at least here in the north east part of the US.)
    How cold is the ground? Laying down on rock or ice is much different than laying down on forest duff. But this starts getting into your sleep system…

    Clearly, there is no one tent that will do everything well, even using todays materials. I like my tarp. Late fall, early spring…its great. After the bugs come out, I add a simple mesh tent under it, a lot like a tarp tent. When it gets cold, I much prefer my tunnel tent…it's just warmer even if it IS heavy. My solution may not fit you. Your conditions are likely different from mine. But, don't be put off by a simple manufacturors mass production label of convenience or some member that is hiking in the Adirondacks. There are too many different conditions out in the wild to say one is better than the other. There are too many personal preferences to say this is the best solution, because, someone, somewhere will easily cite their preference and say yours was incorrect. Rather, learn to evaluate your own preferences and needs before making a purchase. Most real tent manufacturors make good tents. Cottage people make great tents for the conditions they know. Out of context, they are poor choices. If I was camping the tropics, my choice would NOT be the same as it is now. Nor would a single walled tarp tent work well in the Antarctic winter.

    #1868139
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    "Which shelter are you referring to that dumps damp on the occupant by bumping a mesh wall? Be honest." Terra Nova Laser Competition. The issue was height not width, I never bumped anywhere to the sides, just the roof changing clothes, packing, etc. Surely you seen that problem?

    My current shelter has a inner roofline 95cm. My next one has 109cm. That will reduce that problem, to a degree I'll not know for a while. This thread's OP is taller than me so just be aware, that's all….

    However, I've not just looked at roofline height, I've also considered:
    – angles of the fly, steeper ones allow condensation to roll off by itself easier, not just inside but outside as condensation forms on both sides. The TN LC the roofline is quite shallow, 29degs to horizontal, steeper is needed. Many Tarp type shelters you get a steeper angle due to use of a trekking pole near the center. Some TT like the Scarp its quite shallow due to the hoop design.
    – roof vents. The TN LC has none. TT Notch, Scarp, Control all have one or two roof vents.
    – flexibility to adjust the distance between ground and fly independent of tensioning. The TNLC if you tension it hard against wind it tends to raise the distance but the need for more ground clearance is more in less wind. The Notch you can tension it and adjust the ground clearance independently via adjusting the pole height.

    Many condensation-reducing features though do make the shelter colder. That's a concern I'll find out about… two tents back, the Coleman Viper had all mesh upper inner and a large roof vent, it was chilly, colder than the TN LC which had no roof vent. I have beefed up my sleeping bag insulation, will find out how it works out….

    #1868148
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    "Condensation will only occur where there is a temperatur/humidity difference. "

    Interesting, and of course weather, particularly the night that follows the day, like clear skies overnight after rain in the day, and where vegetation helps hoard moisture, magnify the problem. In such circumstances all fabrics find themselves getting condensation from the outside. There are though a few tricks. A steeper fly fabric angle will allow such condensation to run off, so less is on the fabric. A roof vent allows the warmer morning air to begin to circulate inside the shelter more than a fully solid roof. My steep-sided roof-vented shelter was drying quicker than my shallow-sided non-vented shelter. I'd always be looking when pitching to getting morning sunshine to ideally pack a dry shelter.

    Also, and I'm eager to understand this bit myself, if you have a roof vent, what chance has for the fly to have any insulation properties? What if the inner is all mesh, what chance has it to hold any heat? Surely such designs will be a good deal colder than a little-mesh solid inner (like TT do in say the Scarp1)? I know some folks measure temperatures, was this ever compared?

    #1868167
    Mike R
    Member

    @redpoint

    Locale: British Columbia

    I can't comment on TarpTent, but I have two single wall tents: a BD Bibler Fitzroy and a BD Bibler Bombshelter. Besides being the quietest, strongest, and most aerodynamic mountaineering tents I've ever used, they perform just fine when it comes to condensation/moisture. Of course, I probably wouldn't use them in the tropics [they're not designed for that], but they perform flawlessly in cold weather. You should crack the vents a tad. The fuzzy interior surface "draws" moisture and transports it through the canopy. I'm not sure that I'd ever buy another double wall tent. For the weight, they're hard to beat – especially the Fitzroy, that's an insanely strong tent.

    #1868174
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Hi Nigel,

    I used the Scarp in varying conditions and always found it warmer in the tent even though it has a considerable amount of mesh. I also have never had any condensation issues with it.

    I was out in a Hillie Soulo last Wedneday night in horrendous conditions and suffered badly from condensation.

    Cheers,

    Stephen

    #1868182
    Nigel Healy
    Member

    @nigelhealy

    Locale: San Francisco bay area

    Hi Stephen. Yes I know you said it warmer, ISTR someone measured 5C difference inside vs outside?? Can't recall where I saw that.

    Scarp, with solid inner, where is the mesh?

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