performance between single and double walled shelters

Hi Nigel,

The Mesh is in the upper section of each door, the photo I nicked off the Tarp Tent website gives a good idea.

Cheers,

Stephen

Thanks Stephen, I found some more pics here too

So, is the Scarp1 the *ONLY* TT with solid above-head inner?

Also, the Notch and the SS1 partially solid inner is mesh overhead?

I guess also that not all mesh is the same? The mesh on the inner of my TN LC will let drops roll through it, but I've seen posts from TT owners the mesh that TT uses is much better at keeping water outside?

Nigel pondered: "Also, and I'm eager to understand this bit myself, if you have a roof vent, what chance has for the fly to have any insulation properties? What if the inner is all mesh, what chance has it to hold any heat? Surely such designs will be a good deal colder than a little-mesh solid inner (like TT do in say the Scarp1)? I know some folks measure temperatures, was this ever compared?"

I think most of the advantage to a shelter in terms of warmth is to block wind and resulting heat loss. There is so much space and so many open areas, I wouldn't expect much heat retention (only from escaping body heat). Hopefully, your sleeping gear is doing most of the job there. The benefits of ventilation **should** have more positive effects than trying to retain heat I think, unless it is allowing some real wind to pass through.

Reading through many of the posts in this thread, I would consider a tent with any kind of inner liner to be double-walled, but the range of proportions of fabric and mesh is highly variable across the tent manufacturing market. I agree with others that some wind-blocking fabric that is a bit taller than the sleepers inside will keep more wind away and improve comfort.

Our old 1960's treated cotton pyramids used for Scouting were mostly waterproof and you didn't dare touch them or your would break the surface tension and create a leak right over you. IMHO, touching the inside of a silnylon shelter simply creates a channel for the condensation, along with the motion and will invite a drip, but nothing massive. The basic DWR on the outside of your bag *should* handle that. As others noted, the inner liner can help to keep you and your bag away from the condensation on the outer skin.

I see the sources of condensation as, 1. Your warm breath hitting the cold canopy, 2. Plain old dew, and 3. Moisture rising from the still warm soil and vegetation under you and condensing on the colder canopy. The latter is a real culprit when camping on grass (as in back yard tests) and rain-saturated soil. My pet *theory* is that a fuller ground cloth can help with this, although there is plenty of warm saturated air just outside your shelter to be "shared" as well.

Mike Sobr
For five years before becoming part of Tarptent I posted about those shelters.
I liked them and wanted to share Ihow I was using them.
Every so often someone had a go at me thinking that I was paid to do so, just as you did with the Family Guy.
If you were a Forum tragic like the Family Guy and myself are , you would know that, for example, he was attacked in another forum just a few days ago for suggesting a pyramid shelter.
Why would he do that if indeed he had some connection with TT ?
As it happens I do correspond occasionally with FG and usually about tents or bivvies, mostly not Tarptents..
In fact I sent him a picture yesterday of a tent that belongs to one of the self appointed experts at another Forum pointing out that the "expert" tent was not pitched correctly… (and no I don't have that tent but I can see the problem)
Mind you, none of the other resident experts realised the mistake…
Anyway right here at BPL FG and I have disagreed about certain TT shelters, the Moment was one.

BTW, as much as you personally don't like the TT shelters (or possibly all single wall shelters…) a lot of the TT customers are repeat customers, that is they own more than one TT shelter so as much as of course some buy one and then do not like it , many buy another or two.
Franco
Just another thought…
Again the comment has been made about TT sold SH as if that proved anything at all.
As it happens every time I look at one of the for sale pages here at BPL I see something I like although for some reason the owner wants to part from it …
Anyway, TT sold a few thousand tents last year, as it did the year before and the year before that.
So it isn't all that surprising that some end up for sale.
Come to think of it I see more popular cars for sale SH than the ones that are not so popular…
But I agree that the TT shelters are not for everybody, just like everything really.

> If the tent fly is wet you cannot separate and must pack the entire thing wet away.
> So this limitation is the same as a single walled tent.

Really, this seems to be a straw man of little significance.
If the next night is 'dry', the tent will dry out fast when it is pitched.
If the next night is again condensing, you have lost little or nothing.

Good inner tent fabric has a good DWR which prevents it from getting too wet anyhow.

Cheers

I just like to talk openly and honestly about camping gear to help others get suitable equipment. Luckily I don't work for a tent company or all my posts would probably be heavily biased like yours are….

and it would be a direct conflict of interest for you to promote other tents even if they are much better suited to the poster and would save time, aggravation and money. Surely you can step back for a moment and be objective and see the stark conflict of interest. That's why most objectionable forums have a manufacturers separate forum to keep the bias away from the discussions as business is surely clouding these tent discussions in a big way as a large proportion of the posts are from people that work there just like this thread and most TT discussions and if somebody mentions another tent they are immediately put down and discredited and the TT thought police are right there.

Thanks
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

I could be offended but for you I will make an exception…
Clearly someone that thinks the Family Guy has a 50/50 partnership with Tarptent simply because he happens to like some TT shelters does not need to be taken seriously…
Franco

I've bought a few tents from Franco as I reside in Australia and have to say I've always enjoyed his excellent advice, great service and prolific posts. I frequent other forums as well and Franco has provided plenty of commentary on other brands as well as Tarptents.

Mike Sobr writes: "…you still try to obvfuscate facts to promote your Tarptents like a cheap corner girl."

Now I am curious – Franco which Tarptent shelter would be the best choice when on a street corner ?

Roger,

I only use double wall shelter (part mesh inner) and I don't like to pack it up wet but if I do then its just a bit more annoying as the next night as the water has squeezed it way from being packed a wet fly around a dry inner into being wet generally over. Specifically the upper surface of the bathtub. The volume of water is not that much but means I have to wait MORE time at the end of the day, wiping it dry and then possibly sit outside it with it all unzipped maximimizing the airflow before I then take my night dry gear and unpack it. So I just like to reduce that problem by trying to pack a drier tent. I reduce the problem by the way I fold the tent, basically folding the bathtub on itself first then rolling from the edge then storing it battub-up, but I can't totally eliminate as the act of walking just squeezes water around any folds. Its never been that much of an issue I'd take time to remove the inner, pack it separate and then reattach it later to help keep it dry. It does make me take the time to select tents with a better anti-condensation set of features.

Mike Sobr – you seem to be crossing from allowing the forum to share experiences to mutual benefit into just a non-useful personal attack. I've exchanged points of view with FG and Franco and learned from them both, I know Franco is part of TT currently but that's cool. Franco invests quite a lot of time with photos and videos, and useful tips which I've found very useful and thanks to Franco for that.

To be specific, I don't sell any tents here in Australia or anywhere…I just ship them out to Aussie customers.

The stock I have belongs to TT ( that is I neither buy nor sell them) , I have it so that I can seam seal on demand.
For that I get a commission for every TT sold here in Australia, that is not a secret and Mik (the OP, remember him?) is aware of that.

Dale
Your Notch is flying over Hawaii right now. The weather is sunny and it is -40c outside the plane.
I remember asking you if you were selling them TTs last time you bought one…
Nigel
Thanks for that. Sometime I wonder but you can please everybody.
Franco

"Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are. You can wipe the walls down easily. Give one a try and be honest with yourself and you will quickly find out why so many are making the switch to double-wall and loving it."

My response set you off and that wasn't my intention.

You mention that a negative of a single walled shelter is that there is condensation that you cannot avoid but then mention that your shelter is double walled and does not have this issue. My comment was that you would still pack away a wet shelter in your case because of the hybrid design. Yes, you could wipe down the fly. But that is exactly what you could do with a single walled shelter.

Ergo, the negative of a single walled shelter is not any more a negative than the hybrid design of your shelter. Alternatively, your shelter is not a double walled design. I would argue that the Notch isn't either because the inner isn't solid but you can separate the fly from the inner completely and the mesh by NA definitions would be a 'wall.'

I owned 49% of Tarptent until they went public. The IPO was significant (thanks Goldman Sachs!). I got many of my family on the President's List, and without a vesting period, I liquidated my ownership. Henry, because of his successful work at the hedge fund Amarath and his long position on natural gas options, was able to buy back all of the shares and return the company to a private organization. This happened just after his successful hike of the PCT.

>Your Notch is flying over Hawaii right now. The weather is sunny and it is -40c outside the plane.

Thanks for the update Franco – I imagine the Notch is also handling the condensation admirably.

How heavy would be the sleeping bag for -40C with a 500mph windchill?

As the Notch is double wall it would provide complete windchill protection :-) Although it may be necessary to add guylines and stronger pegs…

Dale
I imagine the Notch is also handling the condensation admirably.

The one I had up on my lawn this morning was totally wet, but so was my garden furniture and my shed and the grass (no it didn't rain)
Apparently if I had had a double wall one with a fabric inner set up then that one would have been dry.

now , if , on the other hand , there had been a bit of air movement, things would have been dryer.

The two extra guylines I used for the "fully open" set up ,use the same peg as the door , the angle is already good as it is . (so you keep that guyline under the door panel when zipped up)
Franco

Franco the good news is you are in Melbourne and not Sydney which is back to incessant rain once again !

So I can say with some confidence I'll be able to give the Notch plenty of exposure to condensation with Sydney bushwalking :-) Thanks for the guyline tips.

Just so the new folks know how it works around here if you don't tow the party Tarptent line there will be a background check as shown by this recent post on our last Tarptent discussion by a fellow that went back in the archives to try to dig up dirt on me:

P. Larson
(reacttocontact)
Well… on 03/11/2012 20:33:11 MDT

Screw it, I'll be that guy. Just because Franco seems like a cool dude and you…don't.

Mike…for a dude who is really bashing Tarptents, you sure were 1) a fan of them and 2) at one point, pretty hellbent on getting one.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=26322

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=30537

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27325

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=34633

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=35733

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=36412

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=37184

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=42462

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=41407

This proves that I have promoted Tarptents and actually own and use them and that Franco knew it all along but lied and said that I didn't for self interest.
Discrediting others on a public forum to promote your tent business is shameful and not helping anybody to make an appropriate decision on what shelter is best for them. People that are not embarrassed for themselves will say anything!!!

Doing background checks on posters with different views?
You are setting new lows even for yourselves.

To David Ure's post right below this one asking me to stop the spy games…. please be honest and not twist the fact that the other poster was the one looking through and publicizing my old posts and spying on me and not the other way around. Again obfuscation rules on TT threads and they are disingenuous and will say anything to discredit others views and condone and cheer on this behavior of the other members.

"This proves that I have promoted Tarptents and actually own and use them and that Franco knew it all along but lied and said that I didn't for self interest."

First, congratulations for being the 100th employee of Tarptent. Second, Franco has never once lied (nasty accusation and subject to criticism). Third, hopefully the OP is still around given that was his FIRST POST and apart from the thread drift, perhaps we can simply post 'possibilities' to his question and get away from all of the 'spy games' stuff. What say you, Mike?

Hmmm…

Mike Sobr said: "I had most of the classic single-walled Tarptents mentioned over the years and have gone to a double-walled tent which is the best of both worlds."

Then Franco "lied" and said: "BTW, as much as you personally don't like the TT shelters (or possibly all single wall shelters…)"

So, either Franco was responding to what you said in this thread OR you expect all of us to keep enough tabs on your past posts to recall your preferences from previous threads (as noted by P. Larson).

My friend, I'm sorry that the Thought Police have not lived up to your standards.

Wasn't it von Clausewitz who said, "Internet discussion forums are the extension of high school by other means"?

It is also puzzling as TT has some of the best double-skin shelters too. For the weight/size/stability/cost its right up there. There are blogs out there of folks with dual-skin TT pitched next to other dual-skin. For example in UK many are moving to the Scarp1 from the Laser Competition due to more secure pegging options and less noise. I think that's why OP started the thread, they had researched, focused on TT and wishing to balance single vs dual options. Because TT also happens to make single-skin does not require there to be any personality discussions. Single-skin have their role, and their advocates.

No shelter is perfect and usually requires a bit of customization for the unique set of problems encountered, there's plenty of blogs out there. For example the Contrail, learning how to peg the peak lower for windier situations.

The Contrail, only having seen the photos, I'd guess its right for rain when its not too windy, is for generally warmer temps, where insects are an issue (real or perceived), and not so much for where its dusty? Also its a different set of issues between having bought a Contrail years ago and there's nothing so wrong with it you'd swap it out, from buying now when TT has more shelter options such as Notch, SS1 which came out relatively recently. There was also the Sublite Silnylon which was retired? (its not available to buy now new).

The Notch, I'm assuming more for cooler conditions, or where someone wants to flexibly have inner-only or fly-only or both to suit the conditions (perhaps say for a longer hike over more varied climates). The partially-solid option also allow for inner-only in hot dusty conditions.

So each has a role. However if someone were to have say the Contrail, they can offset some of its weaknesses via choice of sleeping bag and sleeping bag cover, e.g. a Tyvek 1443r MYOG over-bag to help spread any spits through the mesh or add a bit more insulation.

I might have to ask Henry if P. Larson is also part of the great Tatptent conspiracy…

Oddly Tarptent does not make single wall tents but either hybrids (fly with mesh wall/s and floor attatched ) or double wall
The doble wall types are of both kind, the Roger's type, that is the solid inner version (I agree with him in this case) as well as the mesh version.
In fact TT made avaliable the mesh inner for the Scarps before a certain Swedish brand started to do that also..
Anyway..
This is my personal tent collection :

I have recently given away another one and have had and used several others in the past…
Guess why I use the Contrail and the Moment the most ?
(hint, they do the job for me at less weight/bulk)
Franco

Franco TentMeister.

Contrail? By your own video the Notch is the same weight as the Contrail. It is a warmer shelter though…. probably too warm for most of your trips?

Notch is 4 pegs, Contrail is… 5 pegs (both excluding guys) ?

My first tent was Contrail in geometry, it was awkward to get in/out past kit in the vestibule but the Contrail is wider entrance.

You say TT make a double wall solid inner. Which is that? I know the Scarp is part-mesh inner. Is that the Rainbow with clip-in liner?

Nigel
Yes you are correct about the Notch.
Henry is too busy sending them out to customers to have time to send me one.
(TT is shipping out well above last year's figures, the Notch and the two SSs are doing well…)
Actually I still have not had my hands on the partial fabric interior for the Notch so I am not sure between that and the fabric one.
BTW, I use 6 pegs on the Contrail (4 at the corners (needed) 1 at the front to the apex and one at the back on the extra strut.
(that is why mine can take more wind than other Contrails….)

Full double wall. Well yes there is some mesh on the Scarps but just enough to let some air circulation…

Franco
BTW, several at Outdoor Magic laughed at me when I suggested the Scarp as a good alternative to the TN and Akto (that was a few years ago and before I was part of TT…)