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The MSRatauk SuperGnat (Gaz *and* Threaded!)
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Jan 9, 2012 at 8:51 am #1822107
I have loaned out over two thousand dollars worth of gear over the winter season to hikers around the world. If I was worried about them getting trashed I would not have sent them out. That which is most precious to me is still in my house.
Jan 9, 2012 at 9:19 am #1822123"With how strong Gaz is in France and how the French patronize anything French, I suspect it will remain dominant in France, moderate in Europe, and a minor player in North America."
Guess what – CampingGaz is owned by Coleman.
Jan 9, 2012 at 9:36 am #1822133Jim, That's a nice way to more fully utilize the stove. Bopping around Africa or Asia, you can find the most unexpected things available or unavailable, IME. Having twice the canister options would be sweet.
Twice? At least. I'll post more about that later.
And, when you want the basic, less flexible Gnat with its lighter weight (when you know you can get threaded canisters), it is a really quick swap back.
30 seconds once you've done it a couple of times. No tools. Hand tighten. Test before trail use.
If I loan you my Prius, would you put a battery-only button in it like the Japanese models have? There have been numerous times I've wanted that option.
Prius? Is that standard threaded or Camping Gaz? ;)
Jan 9, 2012 at 10:13 am #1822152"That which is most precious to me is still in my house."
+1
Just curious, why was the stove loaned out in the first place if not to be 'tested?'
Jan 9, 2012 at 10:23 am #1822162Ken Thompson wrote: > Jim is not the owner. That is the point.
Unfortunatly, you are correct. Clearly my bad. :(
I have yet to have to take apart a canister stove in over 30 years of camping. My current stove is 10 years old.
I think I'm going to disagree with you a bit there. It's not that your experience is invalid. On the contrary, experience is very important.
But may I suggest my experience may be more than that of the average stove user's. I believe my bio on Seattle Backpackers Magazine states that I own over a hundred backpacking type stoves. Actually, there should be an "S" after the word "hundred." I own hundreds of such stoves ranging in age from over 100 years (old, classic brass kero stoves) to stoves such high tech modern stoves as the Capillary Force Vaporizer stove developed by MSR for the US military. I literally have lost track of how many stoves I have.
I also have volunteered with a local outdoors wilderness training program. Among other things, I put on stove repair clinics. I've seen and repaired more gas and liquid fueled stoves than most people will ever see in a life time. The worst clog in a jet I've ever seen? An old MSR RapidFire (a remote canister gas stove). I don't know how this student managed to do this, but I worked for what seemed like hours on his stove to clear the jet. The RapidFire has a jet shaped like a golf tee. The "stem" is hollow inside and of a larger diameter than the jet aperture. Carbon had built up inside the stem. Every time I would clear the jet orifice and get the stove running, carbon would flake off from inside the stem and re-block the jet. I had to finally hand craft a dowel to scrape the the stem and scour it clean. Worked like a champ. I can list other jet related problems on gas stoves.
Perhaps a month ago, I was out testing alcohol stoves in the field. A local scout troop was there. One of the scouts had an Optimus Crux Lite that wouldn't work. Naturally I volunteered to help. A Crux Lite for those don't know is very very similar to a Monatauk Gnat. I did the same maneuver as I did on the Gnat featured in the original post of this thread. I cleared the jet, reassembled, the stove, handed it back to the scout. The stove worked fine.
So, yes, gas stoves require far less maintenance than liquid fueled stoves, but less does not equal zero.
I submit to you and to others that I am qualified, quite qualified, to do something as trivial as the type of "disassembly" required to clean a jet on a stove.
My error? I should have asked first. Bad judgement on my part. I just lost a job of 21+ years a few days prior. Were my mental faculties up to par? Perhaps not. No excuse though. It was at the very least inconsiderate on my part.
Was the procedure I performed (disassembly like that of cleaning a jet) in some way irresponsible in and of itself? Certainly not. It's about as complicated as opening the lid of a Nalgene bottle. Has the stove been damaged in any way. No. Is there anything that would indicate the necessity of replacing the stove? No. This Gnat is as good as day I received it.
Would I replace an XGK stove because someone removed the spreader plate to clear the jet? Of course not. Neither would I replace a Gnat simply because someone unscrewed the burner column to clear the jet.
Jan 9, 2012 at 10:37 am #1822172First, I would ask Bob why exactly he thought he was loaning out a stove to a guy who already owns 100's of stoves. Seems like testing and review would have been part of the deal which to me would have implied permission to disassemble parts in a manner approved of in an owners manual for maintenance.
Second, I would ask Bob why he called out Jim publicly instead of through email or pm?
Yeah, I just did that publicly.
Jan 9, 2012 at 11:09 am #1822181Diego: +1 on each point.
Jan 9, 2012 at 11:31 am #1822192" I own hundreds of such stoves ranging in age from over 100 years (old, classic brass kero stoves) to stoves such high tech modern stoves as the Capillary Force Vaporizer stove developed by MSR for the US military."
Any chance of a review of that Capillary stove, Jim? Or did i miss it somewhere?
M
Jan 9, 2012 at 11:52 am #1822201"Hard to tell if this thread is joking or serious"
Thank you Curt.
If you look at my reply,11th in the first page, it should be clear that I thought Bob was winding Jim up and I went along with that.
Of course I forgot that I am in Australia and he is not…
Yesterday when I realised that Bob was indeed serious I thought better of not putting any public comment because I knew that they would not be all that polite…
(I did send Jim a PM)For the record, I know nothing about stoves but I have taken a couple apart in the same way. A 6 year old child can do that and put them back together.
FrancoJan 9, 2012 at 12:08 pm #1822209Jan 9, 2012 at 1:16 pm #1822242Any chance of a review of that Capillary stove, Jim? Or did i miss it somewhere?
Oh, Goodness, Matthew,
Be careful what you ask for. Do you know how many oddball and esoteric stoves I have? lol.
Ever hear of a Rando 360? Let's just say that a Jetboil wasn't the first to pack itself and its fuel into its own cookpot.
How about a Vulcan Safety Chef? A "rocket stove" but not for wood.
A Campak Cookette? 7/16ths threaded canister but with a male connector and definitely not UNEF threads. There were a number valved canisters before the current standard threaded was adopted.
How about the first radiant heat burner? The MSR Reactor was most certainly not the first. Gerry was there long before MSR.
Or how about a 100% butane stove that works just fine in cold weather? It had a wick inside the canister and fed in liquid butane. Better performance in cold weather than a Reactor or any modern upright stove for that matter. (Actually, I have posted that one; it's the Hank Roberts. Developed in the 1960's; it compare quite well with modern gas stoves).
Notice I haven't even mentioned any of my old kero stoves. Do you know how beautiful the brass shines on a real Primus liquid fuel stove?. Real as in before the brand was sold to Optimus in 1961. Made in Sweden, not just stamped "Sweden". Back when the cases were hand painted?
Be careful what you ask for. I actually, believe it or not, do own a lot of stoves.
Jan 9, 2012 at 1:30 pm #1822252Fred eric wrote: >http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=35809
Thank you Fred (eric?). I was not aware of that thread, but as it says on my blog Mark F, a BPL member, is the one who tipped me off that such a thing was possible.
I included a warning in my blog post. I post warnings because there could indeed be a problem and if there were a problem it could be quite serious indeed. I don't want some 10 year old cub scout with a web browser to see what I write and blow himself up. I think any adult who has a bit of common sense and some experience with gas stoves could pull it off quite easily. One just has to exercise due care. It takes all of 30 seconds and works as though it came from the factory that way.
Jan 9, 2012 at 2:26 pm #1822284"First, I would ask Bob why exactly he thought he was loaning out a stove to a guy who already owns 100's of stoves. Seems like testing and review would have been part of the deal which to me would have implied permission to disassemble parts in a manner approved of in an owners manual for maintenance."
Diego, I agreed to loan my favorite stove to HJ, and in his words it was for "testing." If he had asked to do "testing and disassembly," then I would have gone the other way. If he had intended to disassemble the thing, then he should have asked in advance. No way do I loan out my favorite stove so that somebody can tinker around with it and see how it looks on the inside. If HJ really wants to do that, then I suggest that he ponies up his own cash for a stove.
Diego, there is no disassembly procedure. Well, there is no owners manual for that matter. There is no recommended maintenance.
Diego, why don't you ship your favorite stove to HJ and let him put a wrench to it?
–B.G.–
Jan 9, 2012 at 2:41 pm #1822291" Any chance of a review of that Capillary stove, Jim? Or did i miss it somewhere?
Oh, Goodness, Matthew,
Be careful what you ask for. Do you know how many oddball and esoteric stoves I have? lol."
Jim…you didn't answer my question :)
M
Jan 9, 2012 at 2:51 pm #1822293Hey, if you'll disassemble and test my old XGK, I'll send it for immediate review, Jim. I can't get the durn cable thingy in the tube part to come the heck out, but I understand there's a hidden note on foil from the MSR designer in there…
Jan 9, 2012 at 3:11 pm #1822301Hi, Matthew,
I've posted some photos and copies of the instructions, but not one of my typical blog posts. It's an interesting stove, but apparently the military didn't quite consider it worthy.
My favorite instruction? "Assemble stove before priming." You think? lol.It was an ambitious project: come up with an un-pressurized stove that would burn standard military vehicle fuel, JP-8, which is basically kerosene. The way they got by without having to pressurize the stove is to use something called a capillary force vaporizer or CFV. The CFV is like a really high tech wick that when primed feeds kero from the tank to the burner. The tank isn't even metal. It appears to be lexan or something of that sort. It's semi-transparent. Interesting stuff.
The burner and pot supports as well as the windscreen are all stainless steel. Even though the fuel tank is non-metal, the stove winds up being fairly heavy.
Included with the stove was a standard MSR fuel bottle (in subdued colors) and a really cool pot. It's basically a 1 liter Titan kettle. It fits in my Caldera Cone (but sits too low for optimal performance). The material is not titanium though, so it's a bit heavy.
The stove comes with a roll to bag, presumably to contain any kero leaks. Everything fits into the 1 liter kettle. The kettle has metric and English markings. I wish my Titan kettle did.
And now a photo that only a stovie can appreciate: The high tech CFV stove betwixt my 1980's vintage Trangia 27 and 1960's vintage Trangia 25 (leather strap).
Jan 9, 2012 at 3:12 pm #1822303No, no, first I want Jim to test the 8R I got from my Dutch girlfriend during the Carter Administration. Cause I'd like accurate boil times for it, but it's always scared me a bit since that flare up that took my eyebrows off.
Jim – if you can get the tank really shiny, it doubles as a mirror for flossing your teeth. . .
Jan 9, 2012 at 3:17 pm #1822306Hey Jim I have one of those new in the box. Want it?
Jan 9, 2012 at 3:20 pm #1822308Jim, thanks for the pictures. Not ready for primetime? Or at least not ready for UL backpacking?
The military has been trying to consolidate their fuel needs for at least 20 years now. Anything that is multi-fuel and or at least JP-8 is preferred / required. Motor vehicles, aircraft, generators, stoves, etc.
More recently, they've pushed for greater fuel efficiency. Partly for obvious mission-related reasons – go further on a tank, but also because fuel supply lines are vulnerable, and more so, expensive. Like an airline, their budgets get pooched when fuel prices go up.
Jan 9, 2012 at 3:22 pm #1822309Hey, if you'll disassemble and test my old XGK, I'll send it for immediate review, Jim. I can't get the durn cable thingy in the tube part to come the heck out, but I understand there's a hidden note on foil from the MSR designer in there…
Well, Erik,
As long as it doesn't involve unscrewing things. I understand that if someone unscrews something from a stove it will ruin the stove and the stove will need replacement. Did you know that I unscrewed the canister from my stove the other day and it hasn't worked since? Threads are very dangerous and have caused untold damage to stove after stove. Especially avoid threads that can be turned by hand without tools. Manufacturers deliberately make them that way because they do not want you to unscrew things. People who argue that threads were put there to facilitate disassembly are reckless fools. Avoid such persons and above all else, avoid threads. If a manufacturer had intended something to be disassembled, he would have spot welded it, now wouldn't he?
Jan 9, 2012 at 3:51 pm #1822317Well MSR gave me this tool thing and the dang wiggly wire whatsit came out once before, but it sure as heck must have been spot welded by the Pen-birthy (?) fellow that borrowed my stove and rambled on about secret designs and bla bla bla… whatever. Like I had time for that old kook and besides, now I can't get the cable out of the tube and who knows if that will cause some kind of massive explosion. Come to think of it, Larry Boy didn't ask. The stove still works (for now) so anyway what were we talking about?
Oh, how about my Stansport copy of an Optimus tank stove? Can you get that thing to work on canister? Maybe I could thread a canister onto that weird nut on the tank.
Jan 9, 2012 at 4:28 pm #1822325Hey Jim,
If you ever want to borrow one of my stoves for testing, you go right ahead. You can even unscrew something if you want!
But I know one guy on this thread that will never get a loaner from me. Nuff said.
Jan 9, 2012 at 4:33 pm #1822326Of all threads one should not touch……this one!!
If the stove is chucked as a loss without even checking it out, then it must not have been that special to begin with. If this was special to me I would want it back, and functional; if it wasn't THEN I would have a problem. This seems silly to me, but to each their own.Jan 9, 2012 at 4:54 pm #1822331"Well MSR gave me this tool thing and the dang wiggly wire whatsit came out once before, but it sure as heck must have been spot welded by the Pen-birthy (?) fellow that borrowed my stove and rambled on about secret designs and bla bla bla… whatever."
It was Larry Penberthy, father of MSR. There was a small flat tool, perhaps 3-4 inches long, and it had a couple of long holes in it. I think the intention was that you grasp the fuel tube "cable" by twisting the tool on it, and then you could pull and extract the cable that way. At least that is the way it was told to me by the stove repair mechanic at REI when they were unable to fix my stove (many years ago). I found that some vise-grips worked a little better, with a bit of twisting. By the way, I found the problem and why the cable was stuck down in there and clogging the fuel tube. You know the red gallon can of Coleman fuel that has the red plastic cap? When that was at the factory, some of the red plastic cap millings got into the fuel can. Then the fuel got into my stove's fuel tank. Somehow the pieces managed to get through the MSR pump and into the fuel tube. They moved down the fuel tube until they hit the heat of the burner, which was about a half-inch below the burner, and then the plastic pieces melted together to form the clog. Now that you know what you might be dealing with, you might have better luck trying to extract that cable. Oh, that also means that you will probably have to pull the whole top of the burner apart and remove the jet/cap.
–B.G.–
Jan 9, 2012 at 4:54 pm #1822332Hi Bob and Jim,
I was curious to see what all the fuss was about, and I took out my own Gnat. Mind you, I've never disassembled a stove in my life, other than removing the base off my primus spider (remote canister stove) for storage. Jim wasn't exaggerating when he said the disassembly is akin to unscrewing a nalgene top. I unscrewed, and rescrewed the gnat together in less than 2 seconds. It was almost as if it was meant to be taken apart this easily (and I think it was for maintenance purposes.)
Yes Bob, Jim should have asked and he has publicly apologized for his misjudgment, but I think your fears are a bit exaggerated, at least in this particular circumstance. No traces of loctite, lubricant, or other sealant are present on the connection point. Its simple metal on metal threading. I think if you were to receive your stove back from Jim, or even with your new ordered stove, and unscrewed it yourself, you would understand how little effect such action has on the performance or condition. To be honest, the unscrewing action is so simple, and requires zero thought in both the action itself and its reversal, that it comes off as very natural. Sorry, I don't mean to come off as rude or not understanding…if anything I feel like I'm a bit on the fence on the matter, but I did want you to get another's perspective on the matter. I can pretty much guarantee no damage occurs when you unscrew and rescrew the gnat…unless you count hurt feelings.
And if you think your feelings are hurt, imagine what a public shaming of Jim (as opposed to a private PM) feels like.
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