My Paleo

Wow Ken,

Pretty honest post. None of my business and maybe this is out of line, so I will apologize now.

You know what to do and why you should do it. And since this "New Year's Resolution" time, why not do something about it now… give Doug a run for his money. You have a great support group here. Lots of people like and will provide encouragement.

I don't think you represent the majority of people by any means. Sure there are people who truly don't care. Do we have an epidemic of people and children who share your attitude? I don't think so.
The people I personally know don't even eat as much as I DO! They just eat junk when they do, and not even anything over the top like candy or soda most of the time.
All Im advocating here is education. For people who do care and do not like how they look and feel. How about the many kids who are skinny but have diabetes? There are many of them. Some people gain weight far easier than others but even if you are not obese you can still be unhealthy.
Im not saying people have NO responsibility for themselves. Im saying we need to educate the public as to the true cause and cure for obesity and other metabolic syndromes. What people choose do do with that info is up to them. As it stands now people are understandably confused about how to go about improving themselves and the "conventional wisdom" (from the 70s) is not helping people. I personally would go so far as to say that conventional wisdom was purposely designed to make people fail. Too much money selling magic pills to desperate people. Too much money in processed food and chain restaurants. They have a trillion dollar reason to tell people food quality dosn't matter and they have lobbyist.

Junk food is incredibly easy to obtain and eat. Just pick a package up, pop it open, and dig in. No wonder real food seems less attractive! It takes some work and knowledge!

"@Craig.
Excuses my friend."

Precisely. One has to work at refraining from over eating. It takes work. Many people don't like to work. I don't buy the emotional or mental state garbage. Those people simply do not want to lose weight enough.

Those people simply do not want to lose weight enough.

Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it? Having to work hard at what you eat and having to have the will to lose weight is not something people ever had to do in our entire history until recently. Why should eating and being healthy be so much work? It shouldn't. And I don't think most of us are built to constantly be having to watch everything that goes in our mouths and how we move. It's our present environment that has forced us to now have to work so hard at it. most people can't keep it up, because we're not meant to. In the past you just ate what was available and used your body to stay alive. Those things naturally made you healthy, without any "will power" or special knowledge about nutrition. Today it is different; we have to actively be aware of what we eat and how we behave. That is not easy to maintain, even for very highly trained athletes. It's not much different from the gear addiction so many of us have here.

Mind. Body. Environment. The three work together.

Doesn't the personal desire (or lack thereof) to "work" that David and Mike keep mentioning fall into the "Mind" or "Mental" category? Call it discipline, willpower, not making excuses, call it whatever you want…It's still merely one component of many needed to succeed.

Example:
I REALLY want to run a sub 3:00 marathon.
I can want all I want and be more disciplined than anyone on Earth and go out and run in circles all day…But if I'm not following a sound physical training plan will I succeed?

So maybe I understand how I train is important, so I go out and hire the best coaches and trainers and buy the best equipment on Earth. Will any of it help if I keep flaking out because I'm depressed, unmotivated, or downright unwilling to do the work?

Understanding this, I go out and I get the best trainers and equipment, and I combine them with unparallelled personal motivation to succeed…only to find that my friends and family are totally unsupportive of my goal and directly and indirectly try to subvert my training and motivation. Now I am faced with my desire to run a sub 3:30 marathon vs. my desire to maintain my community/peer group. Tough choice; either one's got to go or they both get half-a$$ed. See how well you'll find 10-20 hours a week to train if nobody around you supports the idea.

Mind. Body. Environment. Switch around the variables however you want, but if these three can't be synced somewhat successfully, you're likely fighting a losing battle.

"Excuses!" I'm really not sure what Mike and David find so upsetting about this concept.

edit:grammar

>> "Wow Ken,
Pretty honest post. None of my business and maybe this is out of line, so I will apologize now.
You know what to do and why you should do it. And since this "New Year's Resolution" time, why not do something about it now… give Doug a run for his money. You have a great support group here. Lots of people like and will provide encouragement."

No apology needed. I put it out there. I am doing something about it. After back surgery and therapy last year, I dropped to 242lbs (from 310) and ran my first half-marathon in April. Then I quit training and was tickling 300 pounds again on Christmas day. Now I'm back on the wagon. I'm not "dieting". Just limiting total calories and working out (trying to average 5 miles a day plus light weights). I'm hoping to be under 240 when I run my first marathon in April (the Go! St. Louis! marathon), and under 220 when I try my first half-Ironman this summer (still looking for the right one).

>> "I REALLY want to run a sub 3:00 marathon. But I can want all I want and be more disciplined than anyone on Earth and go out and run in circles all day…But if I'm not following a sound physical training plan will I get there?"

BWAA HA HA! I'm just shooting to FINISH my first marathon without vomiting or pooing on myself!

This paleo thing sounds like an interesting experiment, but I know I just don't have the time and energy to limit certain foods, and ultimately, even if I did it for a couple months, I don't think I could sustain the effort long term. For me, simply making sure I swap fruits for chips and keep my total calories reasonable is effort enough.

Hey Ken, vomit amongst distance runners is respectable. Pooing, not so much.

@ Craig – not at all upset and apologize if it came accross that way.

I understand what you are saying and having been a competitive athelete years ago I can attest to the importance of the mind.

However, I am talking about limiting excess calories and not running a sub 3:00 marathon. I am not talking about a reasonably trained individual (like yourself) trying to achieve a personal best while already achieving a high level of performance. Darn tootin' that takes mental strength.

I am only talking about someone dropping some unnecessary calories from their weekly diet that for most includes a few trips for fast food. Or maybe avoiding the second helping of mashed potatoes, if you get my drift.

Science is gaining ground:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?_r=1

“What we see here is a coordinated defense mechanism with multiple components all directed toward making us put on weight,” Proietto says. “This, I think, explains the high failure rate in obesity treatment.”

Re reading my posts, i think i came across as uncaring, and that wasn't my intention. My frustration/anger is with the 'blame culture' in modern society, and not with individual folk.
I think it's great that folk are taking action to reduce their weight, and wish them every success.

Very good Brian

According to your nytimes link

The "fat trap" is that when people are fat for a period of time, their body changes and it becomes very difficult to lose weight and especially to keep it off. When they lose weight, they physically process calories better to re-gain weight, mentally can't stop thinking about food – it's because of hormones and other changes to their bodies

Some people are genetically more at risk

If somebody that's not fat blames fat people with the "personal reponsibility" comment, then the fat person will blame themselves, become depressed,…

We – society, government,… need to use the same techniques used to reduce tobacco and alcohol abuse

What can we do to prevent children from getting fat in the first place, going into the "fat trap"?

"When they lose weight, they physically process calories better to re-gain weight, mentally can't stop thinking about food – it's because of hormones and other changes to their bodies"

I am really struggling with this and many other statements made in the NY times article. I have given a lot of thought to this from a whole different perspective, the effects of thru-hiking on weight.

In order to believe the premise of this article you have to believe that the basic calories in/ calories out is not true. Meaning the calories going in are going out in some other way such as waste, or that with a given weight people use more or less calories to do an identical task. If it was the first then there would be clear evidence to support that theory. The second almost violates laws of physics.

I do believe that major changes do occur in either people losing weight or hiking a long trail, they are very similar. Your body is put into a calorie deficit and at a minimum there is a change in the APPETITE. In my case I knew that weight gain was to occur once I stopped burning off 7-8000 calories per day. But even with dramatically modifying my diet (for the better) and watching what I ate, I gained 20lbs. in the next three months. This is probably an almost identical scenario that causes the weight rebound after dieting. I have kicked up my exercise dramatically and my weight has stabilized and is starting to drop.

A friend of mine is quite large, 380lbs. A year ago he went on a serious diet and quickly lost 100lb. And then he “plateaud” at 280lb. In his case I think it was due to not continuously either dropping calories eaten or increasing the exercise as his weight went down and his body was burned fewer calories. He ended up gaining the weight again, it was sad to watch.

It is amazing that with all the scientific and medical advances of recent years there is a lack of understanding in the medical community on basic issues such as these.

"most of the patients stuck with the extreme low-calorie diet, which consisted of special shakes called Optifast and two cups of low-starch vegetables, totaling just 500 to 550 calories a day for eight weeks."

Seriously? The body goes into shock and starts to conserve fat to protect the internal organs. In fact, it will start to eat muscle protein as well. This is why high protein, low carb diets work….for a while. I learned this in Junior High Biology 20 odd years ago. This is nothing new but I don't expect much else from the NY Times.

Dropping from 7-8K calories per day to 500 will do it and NO ONE here is suggesting this.

Most experts recommend 1 to 2 pounds a week as a safe, realistic weight-loss goal. For example, reducing calories by 300 per day and increasing daily activity to burn off an additional 200 calories should result in a weight loss of one pound per week. It takes time but it is safe and easily worked into one's daily lifestyle.

This is why high protein, low carb diets work….for a while.

Paleo, Primal, and low-carb diets are not high protein diets. They are low carb, moderate protein, high-fat diets. You cannot live on protein alone… that is why "rabbit starvation" (living off low-fat animals like rabbits and chickens) was such a dangerous problem for hunters and trappers who lived in the backcountry in winter and couldn't catch animals like deer to maintain high enough levels of fat intake. Also, you cannot continue eating higher levels of carbs if you hope to switch your body to the ketogenic metabolism. Anyone who has tried to go primal, but continued to eat higher levels of carbs (usually more than 100 g a day) will have failed to switch to the ketogenic system, and so will not experience what so many paleo advocates are talking about. You need the fat to maintain enough calories for the activities that you do. And since fat has more calories per 100 g than either carbs or protein, you don't need to eat as much to get the calories you need.

So let's talk about blame. I've done the morbidly obese thing and I am still slightly overweight. And, yes, I have placed blame… starting with myself. Overweight people aren't just a product of their own doing, there are a ton of outside factors.

As an adult, I blame myself for not educating myself or caring enough to get a handle on my weight much sooner than I did. But the important thing is that I did and I've lost 180 plus pounds and now I backpack, paddle, day hike, run and walk. I cross train with yoga and weights.

I do blame my parents and siblings for not being good role models when it came to eating. One can argue that they aren't to blame but by the time I was in kindergarten I was in sizes meant for a teenager or adult. My sister and brother were beyond cruel and treated me like dirt over my weight. They'd make mean and snide comments like "Thar she blows". It drove my self-esteem to the basement. I was too young to cook my meals or control my portions… the parental unit didn't give me the greatest of boundaries in that regard and I was forced to always clear my plate. My Dad died of a massive heart attack at the age of 67… this was due to smoking and eating the wrong types of foods. He had atherosclerosis and it eventually took his life.

As much as I blame my brother and sister for a small part in my obesity, having older siblings is like having a crystal ball into what lies ahead for me if I follow their example. Margaret is some 20 years older than I and has heart disease same as my Dad did. She's a smoker and she eats nothing but crap… high fat, high sugar, etc. You would think the heart attacks would be enough to get her to take some sort of action. It's not. You'd think seeing my brother Dan, 13 or so years my senior, who has been told his number is pretty much up, would be enough for her to change. Nope. Dan needs a heart transplant. His organs are failing. He's over 400 pounds (estimate) and drinks heavily and smoked until recently. He can't have a transplant because of his health and the doctors say he's got about a year or two at most. My sister, Margaret's son, Paul, is 30 days older than I. When we were both 39 he had two heart attacks back-to-back. His daughter is quite overweight and so the cycle continues.

I'd like to clarify that I wasn't lazy nor was a sofa-sitting-bon-bon-eating-couch-potato. I, for a long time, only ate 1 meal a day in desperation to lose weight. That meal was probably 800 or so calories and I was uneducated at the time, not realizing that this plan would backfire and I'd gain an addition 100 pounds because I destroyed my metabolism. Being obese brought on hormonal imbalances that made weight loss a more difficult task. However, I am walking proof that it isn't an impossibility.

I got really sick of blame and decided it was useless and that I could only move forward. I decided that I was going to break the cycle of fatness in our family. I found backpacking. I had a brother, who died when I was 8 from drowing, who was very fit. He was an avid hiker and loved the outdoors. He used to take me hiking and camping. So I decided that I was going to embrace that and prepped for a hike on the rugged northern section of the Bruce Trail. My first trip was definitely not UL in more ways than one. I was 360 or 370 pounds with an Arc'Teryx Bora 90 filled to the brim with 78 pounds of gear. I might add that this was for a weekender and it almost killed me. Oh, the things I have learned and how much easier this recreation seemed when I cut the body and pack weight by more than half.

I learned about fueling my body and what actually was needed to live healthy. I went on to really wrap my head around nutrition both on and off the trail. Sadly, I did end up with Type 2 diabetes as many of you know but I take it seriously.

Right now I find that a low carb diabetic diet is the best way to eat even if you are non-diabetic and trying to drop a few pounds. I up the carbs a bit on the trail, on wilderness canoe trips and when I run.

"Paleo, Primal, and low-carb diets are not high protein diets."

Indeed. Sorry – wasn't referring to the Paleo specifically with my statement.

In order to believe the premise of this article you have to believe that the basic calories in/ calories out is not true.

A calorie is nothing but a unit of energy. Conservation of energy only says that energy is neither gained nor lost in a closed system. The human body is an open system.

or that with a given weight people use more or less calories to do an identical task.

You don't put gasoline in a car and expect every molecule to be consumed with the same efficiency. The efficiency depends on many, many variables, including the design of the engine, its state of repair, the composition of the fuel, the operating environment, and how the car is driven. Two engines with identical specs under the same conditions can be expected to perform within a small range of each other, but not identically. The efficiency of different engines under different conditions can vary widely.

Compared to an internal combustion engine, the human body is much more complicated and much less well understood. We pay engineers big bucks to tweak a large number of variables that influence engine perfomance. And yet we persist in believing that gaining or losing weight depends solely on the equivalent of "how we drive the car."

Over-simplified models usually don't provide accurate representations of physical reality.

"A calorie is nothing but a unit of energy. Conservation of energy only says that energy is neither gained nor lost in a closed system. The human body is an open system."

So where is the energy going to? Is there a lower body temperature for example that would require less energy to maintain? The energy has to be accounted for somehow.

"You don't put gasoline in a car and expect every molecule to be consumed with the same efficiency. The efficiency depends on many, many variables, including the design of the engine"

In an engine there are easy to measure outputs that point to its efficiency. For example: engine temperature or emmissions. So what ouputs are there in humans that have been proven different between individuals that point to efficiency variation? Higher Co2, less undigested carbs? Maybe "skinny folks" only digest 50% of the carbs that they eat? Could be, but I would think that would be measurable and fully researched.

I'm am not saying that there are no differences between individuals especially in areas such as appetite or reaction to the hundreds of stimuli that we are subjected to. I think there are huge differences and I believe in the macro view the impact of these factors greatly exceeds physiological differences.

Another thought: When I started doing a lot of workout on treadmills and ellipticals I got a real appreciation for what a calorie meant. It became much easier when picking up a 280 calorie to relate that to 20 minutes on the elliptical to work that Snickers bar off. They didn't taste so good then.

That's a terrific way of looking at it Greg. I'll remember that as I hit the treadmill for interval training in a few minutes (I kick things up a notch today – so wish me luck).

I tend to look at the nutritional benefit of food a lot. I could have a chocolate chip cookie that is 15g of carb and about 130 cal or I could have a peach that is the same 15 gram of carb and 70 cal and has a lower glycemic index. This gives me a slower sugar rise and the energy is more dispersed. Add the goodness of the fibre and vitamins… and it's clearly the better choice. After awhile, your body learns to crave the peach and not the cookie (at least mine did). Or I could have 1 cup of mixed berries instead of the peach. Protein also slows the quick rise of carbs as does fat. It's always better to choose nutritional calories over empty calories.

Of course, this all changes when backpacking and I don't limit calories so much on wilderness backpacking and paddling trips. I still try to choose foods with more nutrient value though. That's why you often see quinoa, amaranth, lentils and other such things in some of my recipes.

I also snack (graze) both off and on the trail. I find it a better way to keep my energy up throughout the day. I find that keeps me from over-eating at main meals. On the trail it translates to not hitting the wall and being able to enjoy the hike because I am adequately fueled.

Paleo interests me quite a bit and I am reading/learning more about it. Raw food choices I find fascinating too. As much as I know about food and metabolism, I am still learning too. I'm hoping to get back to University in a few years (once baby girl goes to school) and get a Masters Degree in Nutrition and perhaps become a sports nutritionist.

That's a great story, Laurie, maybe that will give someone else hope!

"So where is the energy going to?"

I have never heard anything about the amount of calories that go through the digestion system unprocessed.

Is it because we have an aversion to talking about p00p?

Simple logic and observation tells me that there are unprocessed calories.

For example, if you drink more water, the excess is eliminated, must be the same with solid matter.

What you see on nutrition labels, menus, etc. already accounts for the systematic losses through our body's processing.

"I also snack (graze) both off and on the trail. I find it a better way to keep my energy up throughout the day. I find that keeps me from over-eating at main meals."

This way of eating has worked really well for me in the past. I typically eat this way when I'm logging calories and eating "healthy". Carbs at about 50% of total calories but all from healthy sources. etc. With this method I can lose weight and keep it off given that I'm maintaining my calorie target.

The problem for me is that healthy, high carb eating requires that I eat all day (meal, snack, meal, snack, meal, snack) or endure periods of hunger. Either way food is always on my mind. The biggest change for me so far w/the Primal thing has been a major increase in fat consumption. I've swapped carbs for fat. I'm now at 60% of cals from fat and ~10% from carbs. I'll have a 700 calorie breakfast, 600 calorie lunch and 500-800 calorie dinner. Each of these 6 hours (or so) apart. I haven't been snacking at all. I don't get hungry for hours and I get to just *not* think about food. Hunger also feels different now. 5-6 hours from my last meal I'll start to think about food and develop a gentle sense of hunger in my stomach. I never (not once in the last 6 weeks) get that hunger pang I used to get. If I don't have healthy food around I can just wait it out until I have access.

@David Ure
You're acting on the presumption that everyone experiences life the same way you do. Psychology is meaningful and it is an oversimplification to assume that lifestyle behaviors are based 100% on choice. It might appear so on the surface but the fact is that psychological factors affect how difficult it is to make the *right* choices. I definitely don't buy the argument that most people are obese due to factors other than choice (hormones, etc) but I think that a person's psyche has to be taken into account when looking for realistic solutions to their problems. Many things can be muscled through but muscling through is not always the most elegant solution.

I want to thank everyone with all this great information. I especially want to thank Doug for starting the thread and Miguel with all his very insightful information.

My wonderful wife was aghast at my diet before we got married. And since holy matrimony has forced me to eat fish, green thingys, and rice most of the time. All of which tastes awful to me. She has especially restricted my intake of red meat and eggs.

She has been going through something she calls the "change." I don't know what the "change" is, but it is a real pain in the rear, and I wish it would go away. Recently she mentioned that she can no longer wear her size 5 clothes (opps… more new clothes — cha-ching!), and would like to lose a few pounds. Now I can't afford to lose too much weight, but eating meat and eggs again sounds like a great idea.

So I showed her some Paleo links, and Mark's Daily Apple blog. Some of the recipes look great. I explained that this is not a diet, but a life style. She seems to like it. And she is off to buy Sisson's book right now. Whoo Hoo! Meat again! And she promises she will no longer try to fool me with "turkey" burgers and steaks that are camouflaged to look like real meat. Now I know that I will not be able to eat meat every meal or even every day, but it has to be better than what I get now, plus I am tired of sneaking out during the day to go to McDonalds. The only problem I am going to have is our long-lasting compromise of real pizza once a week.

Thanks All.

signed,

Starving for real food in California

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