Grand Canyon- Double Crossing aka “Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim”- BPL Group Run

Hello! My name's Torrey and I know one of your friends, Adan, from the SGMDF-forum. I live at the south rim of the canyon (actually inside the park in GC Villiage…i work there) anywho..Ide very much like to join you guys on your run! Ive run down both Kaibab as well as Bright Angel trail to the river n back , and sometimes farther (Ribbon Falls, and Cottonwood camp, 32 miles round trip) numerous times, since june to now, i think its been 11 times? anyways, I run a lot and know the terrain and am fit enough, so im hoping to join you guys. I always run alone out here cause no one else ive met runs 25+ miles on trails, so itll be kinda cool to go with other people for once!

from south rim to river/bridge on Kaibab trail–70 minutes…back up–2hr 20min

south rim to river/bridge on Bright angel–1hr 41 min…up–3hr 25min.

Kaibab to cottonwood camp–3hr 30min

25 canyon miles/random trails,tonto etc –5hr 00min

i didnt put up maps cause im guessin you guys have seen em and mileage/ele. anyway, thats my times for that stuff, i havent been to the top of the North rim yet, so itll be neat if i can go with you all, It looks from the list im the only girl, so hopefully Im not too slow, though if i am, i dont expect anyone to wait for me, I know my way around down there. ok. later… :)

torrey your times don't look slow at all to me.
what a deal, living in the Park.

Can you keep us tuned in regarding the water situation at Cottonwood and the cabin at Roaring Springs ?

Fo Sho! theres always water around, cause a ranger is always at cottonwood camp, and a painter guy lives at the pump-house out by roaring springs. Yes, the faucets are still off in april, but they usually have big gatorade kegs outside full of water, thats where i get my re-fills out there. Also, i know they say not too, but i always drink and fill bottles right outa the creeks down there and ive never gotten sick (i wouldnt in the middle of summer…) But, in winter/early spring it seems fine/ not poluted by lil tourist kids, etc… bring those purifying tablet thingys if youre worried bout it I suppose :)

Hi Torrey- good to know on the water, the "official" site shows no water @ Cottonwood & Roaring Springs- good to know that isn't the case.

It'll be nice to have an "insider" w/ the group, I know I probably speak for everyone, but what a nice place to be able to train!

Mike

Hey Torrey!

Glad you popped in to say hi, it's cool to see a girl represent! I have three daughters, I'm all about the girl power! You're running this stuff pretty fast, I'll try not to trip you up as you go by. I'm shooting more for like a " finish in any way possible" time frame.

This is gonna be fun, getting excited people.

I think I'm slowly getting my "plan" laid out

first question- are two 20 oz bottles going to be enough? one will be water, the other a normal serving of perpetuem (~ 2 scoops)

as near as I can figure we're looking at ~ 7 miles for the first available water (Phantom Ranch), ~ 7 miles to the next (Cottonwood), ~ 2 miles to the next (Roaring Springs) and then ~ 9.5 for the next (RS->NK->RS), I carried those two bottles yesterday for a 12 mile run (~ 2.5 hours) and still had water left when done (probably 10-12 oz)- albeit is was only 25 degrees out

I'm thinking a person might drink a bottle(s) worth while filling up bottles as well?????

next question concerns electrolytes and Perpetuem- it provides roughly 220 mg Sodium, 75 mg of Potassium, 2 mg of Magnesium- is that sufficient for 1.5- 2 hours, ie do I need to be concerned w/ additional/separate electrolytes? I will be popping shot blocks and an occasional gel, which would add ~ 70 mg Sodium, 20 mg Potassium/ hour, I plan on eating some solid food along the way as well which should supplement it more- I'm clueless on electrolyte needs

danke

Mike

Mike: on my death marches, I rely a lot on drinking at the water sources. I'm a gulper (versus my wife who is a sipper – she likes using a Camelbak whereas) I'll gulp a liter at the trailhead and another liter at each water source. I'll have one or two 1-liter pop bottles if the distances or temps get high, or if I'm treating with iodine. But most of the time those water bottles are low to empty. I pack water mostly to wet my whistle while eating a wrap or sub sandwich while hiking. But HYOH and DYOD (drink your own drink) and don't try gulping if you haven't been doing it in training.

My approach is to err on the side of overhydrating a bit and if I'm making clear urine every hour or less, I'm sure I'm getting enough liquids.

I like the idea of putting calories into your fluids and am curious what the serious trail-running guys (and gal) recommend in that vein. That's an arena I could improve my knowledge and practice in. I used Gatorload successfully on my 100K hikes in the 1980's (plus copious solid food). I'm sure there's better stuff now. -David

David, on my bike I really liked Powerbar Ironman drink mix (formerly Powerbar endurance) i got a bunch of tubs on clearance before they made the switch
it's a bit more pricey now but at 70cal per 8oz serving it's loaded with maltodextrin calories so it's a bit slower burning than straight sugar/corn syrup

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4327695

not super UL but for a long day a few bottles worth wouldn't be bad.

Thanks Jake. I'll look for it locally and mailorder some if needed and give it a try around town. -David

Mike,
The rule of thumb that I use is 1L of water per hour in conditions like we expect to see. You can reduce that by a liter by cameling up at the water sources. The tough part is going to be estimating how LONG between water sources. One thing to keep in mind is the ration of water to calories. Perpetuem is intended to be mixed as directed or at least with the amount of total water per hour. You can find a bunch of info on Hammer's website

As far as electrolytes, you will have to play with that to find your level. I probably overdo it a bit but I have avoided any of the nasty effects that I used to experience by having a deficiency.

Be careful about water. You guys are running, hot hiking so dehydration is a very, very bad thing. You are going to experience warm or hot temperatures at the bottom, and very likely dry air at higher elevations, all of which cause you dehydrate. So don't skimp on water. Drink as soon as you feel a little thirsty… this is where a hydration bladder might be of big benefit. Also, don't over-tank when you start, that causes other problems. Just as you want to replace lost calories and minerals as you run, you want to try and keep your water in equilibrium. Also, do not pay too much attention to what others consume or recommend. You need to balance your own body, even if you end up carrying more water than you need.

I'm probably somewhere in between, I'm might throw in an empty platy bottle just to have in case

I'll have a 8-10 Micropur tablets as well, should be decent water running on the north side

I am one who believes in constant small intakes of everything.

Everyone needs to experiment on long outings and find what works best for them.

hey, i dont have like an electrolite "plan" thingy. I take OJ, some gatorade. lemonade with some salt added. Um, some sammiches (PB&J) chocolate bars and potasium vitamin. In general I just eat healthy, meaning whole foods, things that arnt man-made, like meats, fruits ,veggies, and avoid white flour n white sugar. thats bout it.

Anywho–on yer guys water discussion, um, its not the mileage ya need to look at for water in the canyon, its the TIME itll take. *For example–the last 7 miles up Kaibab takes at least 2.5 hrs on a good day, since we'll be doin it after goin to the north side, it could take us 3 or more, if you all arnt used to elevation, it could take 4, cause as you go up yer more tired and get less oxygen. (that 2.5 time it my norm/average time) its not 50 minutes like a normal flat ground 7 mile run. its gains 800 ft per mile with no break, it fact it only gets harder on the way up. so, dont look at it as "how much salt/water/calories do i need for a 7 miles run", but "how much do i need for a b**ch of a 3 hour hillclimb up 5000 ft after already runnin 35 miles" People who dont see it that way are the ones the Helo picks up, and its exactly why a boston marathon winner died out here, ;) also, do NOT underestimate food here! in this terrain you want to eat about 250 calories every 1 hour, thats for a 150 lbs person. I weigh 140 and find that 200-250 is good for me. Ive learned the hard way you can never bring too many sammiches!(or too many however you get your calories things) , i only brough 2 on my last 32 mile run to cottonwood camp, and ran outa energy on my way back up Kaibab and was freakin hungry as hell. -BTW, not tryin to scare ya guys off or make it sound horrible! LOL, Its really fun! But only if youre really prepared. Do NOT short yourself on calories or fluids to save weight! thats the biggest thing. you will consume more calories on this 42 mile run than you think! Having snacks left for the end makes a big difference on how you feel climbin outa here.

ona personal note to waterbottles, Im bringing my 2 24oz polar bottles in my pack, AND my 20 oz hand-held. thats my normal supply for any run into the canyon

Heres a few pics/lonk of the south kaibab from one of my runs down n up, um, link isnt workin, but if you highlight it copy n paste it it does, weird. anyways..

http://sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org/1st_2012_canyon_run_about4371.html

See nutrition thread.

Here is a good article for those interested.
Weight Change

Torrey- thanks for posting the pics- looks wonderful! Sounds like I'll definitely take another bottle, maybe it's time to try a handheld :)

I'm going to take a stab at times using Cottonwood as a turn around point, with Torrey's posted times and adding ~ 25%, so ~ 1.5 hours SK->Phantom, Phantom -> Cottonwood 2.8 hrs, Cottonwood back to Phantom should be a little easier/quicker 2.0 hrs??????, Phantom ->SK 3.0 hrs- add an hour for breaks/futzing/picture taking- should be in the 10.5 hr range

guessing using Roaring Springs (additional 4.2 miles) as a turnaround adding ~ 1.5 hrs????, making it ~ 12 hrs- that should be doable (God willing :))

Mike you'll do fine.
adding 1.5 hours to your "out" time and using that as an estimate for your return time (assuming same route) should get you pretty close.
if you descend SK and ascend BA then you might want to add a bit more to adjust for the extra mileage.

see nutrition thread

Electrolyte intake, like nutrition is a very individual thing.

enjoy your run guys drink what you usually do and by how you feel and you'll do fine.

please start a new thread if you want to continue the discussion.

1) There are non-regulars reading this thread with an eye towards going on the trip so even in the midst of mid-February cabin fever, let's be civil and accept that we have different experiences, theories, knowledge bases, and references. But no one is TRYING to steer anyone else wrong.

2) I'm a nicer guy on the trail than I am on-line. I hope that's true for others because I'm going on this trip.

3) This morning I posed some questions about hyponatremia to a double-board-certified, American College of Physicans member, hospitalist/internist (who I met on a backpacking trip and later married). But I'll start another thread on that under the Food, Hydration, and Nutrition section. Cause it seems to fit there and hopefully won't get too chaffy.

-David

Hey you guys…Ive been scannin through the earlier posts, and one thing i saw was that some people wanna come back UP the bright angel trail insteada tha S.kaibab. Bad idea doods. I KNOW you look at'a map n say "ooh its only 2.5 miles longer and different views…" Ive done both, and after going 20+ miles, I prefer SK. The BA IS cool and less steep ,for the first 7 miles, then the last 2.5 take for-freakin-EVER! for a walky/touristy R2R2R hike, itd be cool, but trust me, you wanna come back on the SK…well, thats how im rollin anyways, cause ya, its steeper a little, but after 7 miles, yer done! on the BA, after 7 miles, you have 2.5 miles more, And it feels like 3X longer…the top never seems to get closer and after running so far you tend to not care too much about the views….However, that said, I do LIVE here n see it alot, so my goal is to get a time that doesnt disapoint me, since itll all be new to you guys, maybe ya wanna take BA. Keep in mind though it may be dark by then…..anywho, just my 2cent/personal preferance, no rule says ya hafta go my way of course. I just wanna let ya know that that exctra 2.5 miles seems really far. :)

Always keep in mind Grand Canyon miles are different than regular miles. Even if you do lotsa hill climbs n mountainy runs, its basically downhill to get back to yer car or home…Out here, its at LEAST a 7 mile UPhill battle to get out. Maybe compare it to getting dropped off on the TOP of a 8000ft mtn, runnin Down it, then, at the bottom, immidiately turn around and run UP it to finnish, …..then do it twice ;) …are you SURE that at the very end of that youe'd want to ADD 2.5 extra miles? again, not trying to tell you all not to go that way, I simply want you to be able to really think about it first is all, Maybe you LOVE making things really hard, I do sometimes…so, thats just somethin' to consider. Ok, ima go for a run in the snow!, TTYL!

Torrey: Thanks for your thoughts on this. I was one of those thinking the gentler grade and water stops on the BA would make it easier than the SK. I don't have as much experience (BA 8 times, SK 3 times, NK twice) as you do and far less in a run/walk mode.

But on water – you're coming right out of Phantom Ranch, all topped off and (while I don't know what they'll be, that afternoon) I'll know exactly the temp, sun, and time so I can bring enough water for the SK.

The rocks are a bit hotter on the SK, but there's often more of a breeze.

And (see the aside below) the fricking constant slope of the BA gets to me. SK has more variety of slope.

And, as you say, a very long, hard day is over sooner on the SK.

And there's no shuttling to do – just hobble into your car at the SK trailhead and head for a burger and beer. I have hated waiting for a park shuttle while I'm a little underdressed, the temps are lower, my legs are getting stiff and I'm waiting for bus full of tourists dressing in white shoes and plaid pants.

I think you've convinced me. Mike: What are you thinking now? I think you and I are thinking of doing similar hikes/jogs.

*An aside on trail slopes: If you need to go 1000 feet up the mountain, absolutely the best way to do that is on a trail sloped 500-600 feet per mile. But when you'll be climbing 10,000 feet in a day, I find a constant trail slope makes it tough. Your basic Rim-River-Rim should be easier than a Half Dome hike. Rim-River-Rim is the same vertical, same or less horizontal but it is 1,500 feet lower in elevation. But even on a non-hot GCNP trip, I am much more sore afterwards, even when I've conditioned MORE for the Grand Canyon. I think it is because almost all the Bright Angel is at that constant slope. I'm doing the SAME dang stride ALL the way down. Then the SAME motions, again and again, the WHOLE way up. Half Dome has variety to it – steep and paved early, those big steps on the Mist Trail, gentle sandy above Vernal, transitioning to those annoying cobblestones along Nevada, sandy flats in LYV, switchbacks from there, then it shallows out, steepens again, before those big steps on the sub-dome and then the cables. With so much variety, my legs and hips don't get near as sore from doing one motion all day long.