Solo Wilderness Security

To add to Paul's post:

Traffic deaths that were alcohol related in 1998 15,935 (http://www.madd.org)

Murders by guns in the US for 1998 9,143 (1998 Uniform Crime Report)

CDC's website numbers from 2009: (suicides removed from all categories)

All transport: 38,334
Poisoning: 35,194
Fall: 24,877
Firearms: 12,612

Perhaps we should make everyone wear a helmet, ban cars, and make you get a permit to own poisonous substances? If you really want to save lives that is…

Oh, and hammer and clubs killed more people in 2011 than rifles.

As a legal carry guy everywhere, (Law Enforcement). I literally wear one at all times. EXCEPT in the back country. So it's quick wits, bear spray, best practices and common sense. I find the people to be amenable, friendly, even going out of their way to be so. It was once said "We pack our fears". But again, to each their own!

FWIW I only carry as permitted by law. I haven't been on an adventure yet worth dying or receiving a felony for.

I backpack with children in mountain lion country. In this scenario, I carry a gun in lieu of OC spray. I carry a Glock 26 and have >20 years extensive firearms training. This pistol is compact, carries 10 rounds in my smallest mag (will accept a 30 rounder if necessary), and I pack 9mm jacketed hollow points. I've shot this weapon enough to ensure I can shoot 12" shot groups at 25 yards under duress. There may be lighter options out there but I'm not willing to compromise on the performance of this pistol.

IMO OC spray is better than a firearm for bear defense; where I live, black bear and mountain lion territory overlap. While black bears are capable of killing me, I'm less concerned about being attacked by a bear and more concerned about my kids getting jumped by a mountain lion. If I'm traveling with kids AND another adult, I'll usually throw my bear spray to the other adult and carry the pistol. If I'm traveling solo, I'll only carry if I'm in an area prone to covert meth labs and marijuana grows. I'm 6'3 so while it's not impossible for a mountain lion to attack me it isn't very likely either.

I follow normal protocols when hiking with kids in mountain lion country and keep them close and in front of me so they don't get jumped from behind.

Peter E – Re your 2 cents post – Here is one yankee who agrees with you 1000%.
You could post another bar chart showing the US exports of weapons being many times greater compared to other countries. But it would be pointless, the debate being "un-winnable" as you put it. Nothing, even the worst atrocities, seems to change the gun culture here. And within it lies the seeds of our own destruction.
I have seen the engine of that self destruction up close in Vietnam, and from afar many decades later in Afghanistan. Thank you for saying so well what needed to be said.

Ice Axe-

"Kindness begets Kindness"

Truer words never spoken. I'm a huge 2nd Amd guy and have carried a weapon for a couple decades for work. I've received countless hours of "Rules of Engagement" and "Use of Force Continuum" training to understand when my life is in jeopardy and when I can use my mind and my mouth to avert trouble or deescalate an agitated person.

I look at my pistol and other weapons like other safety equipment. I've worn my seatbelt for >40 years and have never needed it. Hopefully I never will. I don't wear my seatbelt in a parking lot and I don't carry a pistol when a reasonable threat analysis wouldn't require one. It's my responsibility to understand all of the variables (e.g. prevalence of mountain lion attacks) and I bear the burden if I'm wrong.

I'm concerned when people are loaded for bear but don't correspondingly educate themselves on how, and more importantly, when to use a weapon. A local bouncer is now a convicted felon and will soon lose all of his assets for getting too aggressive with a patron. A little training, education, and common decency and he would have avoided the situation all together.

BTW I'm a huge Gandhi fan. I enjoyed visiting his museum and Smriti in India. His anthology was a wonderful and refreshing read; I'd recommend it to you if you haven't read it yet.

Not looking to debate, just will state why I carry a firearm.

I live in Alaska, and hike in areas with high bear and moose populations. I've also, as a woman that hikes solo, had some sketchy experiences with men, particularly when they've been drinking. I have had two men come up on me openly voicing what they would do when they got to me, only to change their attitude entirely when they saw I was packing. I never had to even touch the firearm, it's mere presence on my hip was a deterrent.

I pack both openly and concealed, depending. Both are 100% legal without a permit in Alaska. Long time Alaskans don't get concerned when they pass someone with a gun. Granola type imports from California give us dirty looks though. If I know I'm hiking a trail high in that type of personality, I'll conceal my firearm to keep them from being scared. Mostly I try to get off the beaten path, however.

I do also carry bear spray, and which option I choose to use would depend on what my circumstances turned out to be.

Is it UL? Absolutely not. Do I think it's prudent? Yes. If I were hiking in a group, I probably wouldn't take a gun. I would be less likely to have problems with wildlife or people in a group. But since I hike primarily alone, I do think I have to consider my personal safety and take steps to ensure it.

"Granola type imports from California"…

"Illegal invaders from Southern countries"…

Even a little talk about whether or not to report killing a person and face the legal consequences or leave their corpse in the woods.

What a wonderful thread, rife with stereotypes galore, boogeymen, closeted xenophobia, and all that wholesome stuff.

Gun talk continues to bring out nothing but the best in people.

I fully support the 2nd amendment…
but here's an idea
Maybe if hiking so dangerous that one feels they need a gun -they should think about finding another hobby? Something safe?

I could say the same thing about a personal locator beacon. If you feel that you might need it, then maybe you shouldn't be doing that hike.

"I could say the same thing about a personal locator beacon. If you feel that you might need it, then maybe you shouldn't be doing that hike."

You could, but it wouldn't be a good analogy. A PLB isn't so much for you, it's for those who might have to come looking for you.

…

@ Brian UL-

There's a difference between feeling it's a dangerous activity and simply going in a manner in which you feel prepared. That level of preparation varies by person. As Justin pointed out, some people take PLB's or SPOT's, some don't. Some take minimalist gear, some take the kitchen sink. Some places are, technically, safer than others. East coast hikers are pretty unlikely to encounter a Grizzly bear, for example. Even many west coast hikers are unlikely to ever see one unless they go to Yellowstone. A lot less likely than I am, where I have seen Grizzlies on hikes just a couple miles from my house, and where I've encountered black bears on my road. A wolf pack in recent years had to be eliminated because they were coming into residential areas and killing people's dogs and finally went after a couple of women who were walking on a road. Being prepared doesn't equal being afraid- it's just being prepared. I feel quite confident in the woods.

"An updated advisory on the website of the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs offers female students new tactics to fend off rapists, including vomiting, urinating and telling an attacker they have a disease.
The new recommendations came Monday evening, hours after the Colorado House passed a package of gun safety bills, including one that would ban the concealed carrying of guns on college campuses."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/colorado-college-advises-students-to-urinate-vomit-to-stop-rapists/

EagleRiverDee-

Do you think pepper spray would work as deterrent for a wolf pack? We have twice as many wolves in our part of WA state as
last year. More than in Denali National Park now it is estimated. They attack peoples dogs and livestock, but haven't been any threat to people. If I am hiking with my dog and need to dissuade several animals, have you heard if pepper spray has been effective,
IE using up the can on one or two wolves and the rest leaving?

So now the rapist knows the law abiding student won't be armed? Disarm the potential victim … that make sense to someone.

Dena,

"I've also, as a woman that hikes solo, had some sketchy experiences with men, particularly when they've been drinking. I have had two men come up on me openly voicing what they would do when they got to me, only to change their attitude entirely when they saw I was packing."

There are certainly safety concerns peculiar to women which men cannot relate to. After reading one chapter in "Wild," the author described one incident on the PCT where a predator/day hiker (calm down folks! Not saying this is mutually inclusive!) came after her aggressively. Based on her description, I'm surprised that he didn't try to rape her.

I made an analogy in an earlier post that I've worn my seatbelt my entire life and I've never needed it. I wear it because the unlikely but potential consequences are so dire. I carry 100% around town for reasons unrelated to this thread or OP. I rarely carry when I’m hiking in Washington because I’m not overly afraid of black bear and mountain lions only concern me when I’m with my kids. There aren’t any moose in my area and I don’t know enough about the re-emerging wolf packs to understand if I should be concerned about them or not. I finally saw my first wolf last year near Chinook Pass…. but I digress.

People like Andrew Skurka hike the Alaska Wilderness all the time without a gun and live to see another day but the between the moose and grizzlies I personally wouldn't be one of them.

David-

The women that were nearly attacked had pepper spray. They backed down the road 1/4 mile spraying the wolves with pepper spray with the wolves following them snarling and trying to get to them. The pepper spray was only partially effective and it seems the wolves were waiting for them to run out. If memory serves, what scared the wolves off finally was a vehicle that came to the women's rescue. The pack became such a problem that there was a concern that children waiting for school buses would be harmed. The local native tribe took care of the issue. This particular pack had lost its fear of humans.

Ian-

Thanks for understanding my point.

And I agree with your final sentence, too!

"The pepper spray was only partially effective and it seems the wolves were waiting for them to run out. If memory serves, what scared the wolves off finally was a vehicle that came to the women's rescue."

Wow! After watching a video where a wolf pack took out a young moose while the mother was agressively trying to fight them off, I'd be toast if they thought I looked like lunch! They certainly are tough and persistant.

I've spent some time researching black bear and cougar but almost none researching wolves as I never expected to see one in the wild. I'll admit that when I finally saw one, it was very exciting but my new reality is that I should expect to encounter them and that I need better knowledge of how to react to them. Off to hit the books!

"An updated advisory on the website of the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs offers female students new tactics to fend off rapists, including vomiting, urinating and telling an attacker they have a disease.

Charming.

Dena, I googled your words about the wolf attack on the women and only came up with a Fort Richardson incident where wolves attacked dogs being walked by 3 women (as opposed to attacking the women on their own). Is that the same incident, or a different one from the one you are talking about? Neither scenario sounds like fun…

d k –

I had recalled it as two women, but I do recall they were walking their dogs and it was on a road on Ft. Rich so I would say that is very likely the same incident. It's been a few years so my memory on the people count must have been faulty. The same pack had also started encroaching on Eagle River (which is adjacent to Ft. Rich and is the town I live in) and coming into a residential area there. It was for both of those reasons that the local Native tribe (actually called a Native Corporation, up here) took the issue into their own hands. People's lives were at risk.

Here's a link to articles in regards to this wolf pack:

http://www.adn.com/2008/01/02/243761/dec-21-wolves-blamed-in-two-eagle.html

http://www.adn.com/2010/11/07/1542141/bolder-wolves-fray-residents-nerves.html

It makes sense to carry a riffle if your in grizzly country, and I can see woman packing pistols, in fact hand guns are traditionally associated with womans self defense and it makes sense.
Im just not impressed with the grown men that seem to need to carry all the time.

By all means, don't carry a gun; there is no mandate which would require you to do so. I didn't grow up in a house with guns so this is something I've adopted as a result of my profession. In all likelihood I doubt I'd carry a gun today if I'd grown up to be a Dr. or teacher (slowly fade in Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys..). Having a front row seat to human depravity will warp your perception of the world and feelings of security.

I realize that to someone who has no interest in ever carrying a gun and who has never needed one, the act may seem odd. What I can tell you is that the weight of the gun disappears after a while (like a bulky wallet or watch) and it seems stranger when it's missing. My pistol is very concealable and I don't even notice it any more.

I'd consider taking a gun backpacking, but it probably wouldn't work after I drilled a bunch of holes in it.