Solo Wilderness Security

[Rodney OndaRock]

1) Thank you everyone for taking the time to provide feedback.
2) A hot topic draws many diverse points of view.
3) My friend's concern scenario is such: sleeping in a solo tent, stealth camp in the national forest, visibility is limited to a tent shadow at best. A bear, mountain lion or human attacks you while in the tiny tent.

That was the reasoning for "low accuracy is OK" because the situation might be shooting at the sudden tent intruder biting the camper's foot. distance range 5 ft ?

The other issue is with a shorter barrel, generally it's less weight, but at the trade off accuracy.

If a bear invades your tent and bites your foot, pepper spray will blind you just as much in a tight tent space.

As for the 2 legged attackers, a pepper spray can is not taken seriously as a deterrent, since some of those guys use it as a dinner condiment. Also, a can runs out of spray pressure in 30-45 secs, where as the stopping power is limited by your refill inventory.

The "packing" gear feedback I gathered from the posts:
Smith & Wesson 342PD, titanium
S&W 337PD
any caliber in the 40-45 area is fine
.44 Magnum revolver
Glock in .40, 10mm, or .45
glock in 9mm, .40 or .45 is enough gun
Glock-19

Generally impractical to carry while moving on the trail during the day, those encounters can be mitigated in a variety of ways. So during the trail walk, the toys would be in bag. It's the night/sleep when a person is most vulnerable.

I was surprised that the Glock was of interest for the outdoors, no one mentioned stun or taser guns. They prob would not be effective on fat and furry predators, 2 or 4 legged.

All laws, risks and liability considered, I was curious what BPL people were packing, with UL weight consideration vs effectiveness.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

[Fred Thorp]

"Generally impractical to carry while moving on the trail during the day"

Not at all. Concealed and quickly accessible is easily done.

[Ultra Magnus]

"Not at all. Concealed and quickly accessible is easily done."

Yeah, I was wondering about that one. It seems that that hip-belt would be in the way of most ccw holsters. At least most that I've seen… But, it did get me thinking, a cool ccw hip-belt pocket holster might be a possibility.

BM

[HkNewman]

What about bear and pepper sprays in the wind? .Black bears (specifically) I have run into have been pretty silent in the forest, and have usually crossed my path from thick brush with barely a sound (most just flee with a flash of bear booty).

If an altercation with a bear were to happen, it'd likely be hand-to-hand (or hand-to-paw) where wind would be negligible given how quick, yet stealthy bears can be.

I fire off some bear spray every so often in a strong breeze/wind. It is highly pressurized. While firing bear spray into a strong wind can be problematic, it does pretty good in a crosswind. With a canister, one really does not need much (if any) practice as the spray comes out as a pretty deng big cone (different experience IMO, firing than a handgun, which I practiced with for my previous job at taxpayer expense -ranges, close quarters, switching from carbine to pistol, etc…).

[David Adair]

Is it too late to get in my less than two cents?

I don't carry a defensive firearm any longer on any back-country trips as I have found them to be heavy, awkward and generally of no use. On a hip belt they largely serve to pull my pants down and get in the way of my pack belt. Instead I have taken to packing an old aluminum lawn chair with green straps. It is every bit as heavy and awkward but with greater utility after I hump the thing up a mountain.

Let me explain:

In case of a grizzly encounter on the trail one can wave the lawn chair overhead while making huffing noises and clacking one's own jaws. The bear will either:
1) Think you are a thirteen foot bear and leave you alone or:
2) have a concern about ingesting second hand LSD and leave you alone.

At bedtime one hangs the chair from an overhead branch to swing in the wind. Any bear encountering such a thing will:
1) Be creeped out by the odd thing swinging in the wind and leave you alone or:
2) Recognize it as a lawn chair on a string and leave you alone with the same concern for the possibility of ingesting second hand LSD.

It works for two legged pests as well. Now suppose you should come upon a group of drunken lowlifes. With that old lawn chair on your back they will surely recognize you as one of their own. Anybody with something of value surely wouldn't be schlepping an old lawn chair around. Home free! (this works better if you trade the Patagucci R1 for an old army shirt btw)

So there you have it – wilderness security at its best!

PS Don't worry, folks on the trial will still notice you are pack'n and suspect you might be a little crazy- just a nice sort of crazy instead of a dangerous sort of crazy.

[Justin Baker]

If you end up bumping into a pot field, I think the likely scenario is you would end up quickly drawing and shooting an armed growing before he can draw on you on the outskirts of an operation and then run your butt off. Either way, not a good situation if you are going to be chased.
Learn the signs, stay away from small streams on the side of well wooded mountains that lead into bigger creeks or rivers. Pot farmers need a water source and they would rather set up on some steep hill than right next to a river where people might be fishing or floating down. If you see any tools, buckets, piping, strange soil modification or digging, turn right around.

Has anybody here had luck with a chest mounted rig?

[J Boro]

Lots of really good points here.

If your concern is unwanted midnight visitors, then there are a few simple things you can do and should do before you arm yourself to the teeth. First, in potentially shady areas you may want to stealth camp which can eliminate problems with people and bears. I sometimes camp along the edge of brush or downed trees. This gives me a feeling of some protection on a few sides and I at least know that nothing big is going to come sneaking up from that side. It also gives you some camo so that you are not visible from the trail. If you head uphill you'll also deter the lazy from stumbling onto your camp.

If you are part of the incredibly small unlucky minority that encounters a problem bear or person then you have to weight the benefits and drawbacks to guns vs. bear spray. In open terrain, where you may get a few seconds to respond, both guns and bear spray would be effective against people and bears. Spray allows more room for error and is generally more accessible than a gun. Also, with people, it is likely that you will be blindsided so unless your gun is in your hand it will probably be useless. In a tent however, it's likely that you'll blind yourself as well as the bear whereas a gun is quite effective.

For me, then answer to this conundrum is usually a knife mounted in a deployable position camouflaged on my pack (fallkniven f1 or Esee Izula). If I sense a potential problem, then I'll undo the snap and it is ready to deploy. It's fast enough to surprise a human attacker (quite deadly as well) and while it won't lop a bears head off, it's better than your bare hands if you are in a tent. It's also socially acceptable on the trail.

Lastly, you may want to take into account who else is out on the trail. If it's an area that is accessible to a lot of people then you probably don't have people exercising food discipline and are more likely to have an animal encounter in addition to problem people. For those reason, I'd be more likely to carry a knife and a firearm on quick overnighters or weekend trips than I would far into the backcountry.

[Bob Bankhead]

Get one of the smaller fanny packs, and wear it with the pouch to the front, over your pack's hip belt buckle. Place your firearm in the fanny pack, out of sight but readily accessible. Keep wearing the fanny pack whenever you take off your pack.

CAVEAT: be sure you either (1) have a current Concealed Carry Permit issued by the state in which you are doing this, or (2) that said state will honor the CCW you do have if it was issued by a different state. Twenty-five states will issue CC permits to non-residents, but don't just assume reciprocity exists.

See http://www.handgunlaw.us.com for the latest information. According to them;

The District of Columbia does not issue CC permits nor will they honor ANY permits from ANY state.

Illinois (IL) and Wisconsin (WI) are "Non CCW issue states".

Colorado (CO), Michigan (MI), South Carolina (SC), New Hampshire (NH),
Florida (FL), and Maine (ME) only honor permits from residents of the issuing states. (Interesting as all of them except MI issue non-resident permits themselves.)

Vermont, Alaska & Arizona: Anyone who can legally own a firearm can carry it concealed. No Permit/License is required.)

OPEN CARRY without a permit is legal in most states, but it is your responsibility to KNOW before you try it. If you're worried about other people, open carry (where the bad guys can see it) is a far better deterrent than concealed carry and you don't have the hassles associated with permits.

Alaska is a totally different animal but here in "the lower 48", I've never seen the chippies and marmots numerous or bad enough to warrant packing a gun on the trail. Mosquitoes, yes, but I can't carry enough ammo to even put a dent in their numbers.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

The Tarus 444 Titanium in .44 magnum at 28 oz is the lightest gun that will "Do the job." if you do yours and get a decent head shot on a brown bear.

I own guns but have no revolver yet. When I DO get one next June it will be this model for protection from brown bears. A .44 magnum is the MINIMUM cartridge one should consider for stopping dangerous North American game.

BTW, I read "scribbles" comment, "Glock for the city. Bear spray for the wilderness." So far that's exactly what I've been doing – and the biggest bear spray canister.
But for brown bear country the Tarus 444 Titanium is the lightest gun in .44 magnum you can find anywhere. Great design and excellent quality.

[joseph peterson]

The need to carry in the city or the wilderness just reaks of fear. I realize others see it different, but I see it as a sign of fear.

And yes I live in a rough area of a rough town, and hike in bear and mountain lion country.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Joseph, there's fear and there's prudence. The two are not the same.

If you feel you're more macho than me for not carrying in "Indian Territory" and in wilderness areas with dangerous game then fine. For me it's not fear but prudence, kinda like "accident insurance".

Remember, "When seconds count the police are only minutes away."

If you're ever UNarmed and at the wrong end of a gun in a potentially deadly situation you'll know fear and only fear.

If you're ever armed in the same situation you'll know both fear and hope of survival.

When an FBI agent friend and a Henderson police friend both tell me to carry in Las Vegas metro area I feel they are advising me out of an abundance of prudence. So I carry, mostly at night. Plus I have the feeling that my home is secure when these firearms – properly stored – are in the house. As former armed security I have been trained by private companies on the use of deadly force with several types of weapons so I know the ways and times to deploy them and when NOT to.

In a wildnerness situation I may carry only bear spray where there are black bears and will ALWAYS carry at least a .44 magnum where there are brown bears (griz).

As for you, God bless you with continued good luck.

** ADDENDUM: I stand corrected, the Smith & Wesson "pd" series of titanium revolvers in .44 magnum is 3 oz. lighter than the Tarus 444 Ultralite titanium in the same caliber, albiet more 'spensive than the Tarus. Either are excellent choices.

[Stephen M]

All Jokes aside, I do find this conversation a bit crazy.

I never hike in the forests in the UK or Ireland as the Treeline ends at about 300m and Met Labs and Pot growing operations are normally in Cities :-)

I| do have cousin in LA who was shot along time ago.

[Ben C]

I have ha the same luck as Joseph. Amazing its happened to both of us.

[Ken Thompson]

nm

[Ben C]

By far the most dangerous thing we do is drive to the trailhead.

[a b]

My buddy Sage and i ran into a Cowgirl in Montana. She was rounding up her cattle from horseback with one broken arm in a sling because :"There ain't nobody else to do it."
We noticed she had both bear load pepper spray AND a pistol on her hip.
When asked about it she replied: "The Bear spray is in case my horse and I get charged by a grizzly. The pistol is for my horse if i have to put it down and myself if i get injured to bad to make it."
She was totally serious.
That was the exact opposite attitude Sage and i expected to find from a rough, trail hardened Cowgirl outside of East Glacier Montana.
Personally I would carry a gun.. except that bullets are made out of lead Ya know.. Lead is heavy.
Instead i carry a toothbrush with a full length handle.
Never underestimate the power of a FULL size toothbrush!
.

[Don Morris]

This is the most rational thread I have seen on this subject. A lot of people really get carried away when hashing this out. My friends usually cite studies that show that bear spray is actually more effective and safer than firearms, which do add to the weight. They also avoid irrigated wilderness gardens.

I am a longtime firearms user and backpacker. I have never felt the need to carry when in the woods. On the one time when I did confront weapon (a 45 auto pointed at my COM) carrying would not have done me any good, and might have gotten me killed. I had to talk my way out of the situation.

[Fred Thorp]

"The need to carry in the city or the wilderness just reaks of fear. I realize others see it different, but I see it as a sign of fear."

I have a spare tire and a rain coat in my vehicle. I'm not “afraid” of flats or rain. I’m around people that carry or are within arms reach of a firearm, 24/7. It’s not a fearful crowd. We don’t usually get to choose when bad things happen. Everyone has to make their own decisions, hopefully informed.

[Larry De La Briandais]

Remember, a gun is MUCH less effective at keeping you safe against a brown bear than bear spray is…

[adam spates]

I wonder if the guys who recently got attacked in Yellowstone and Colorado while asleep in their tents wish they would have had a gun?

I'm not going to tell you wether or not you should carry in the wilderness. That's one of the great things about America….you have the choice(for the most part anyways).

But for your original posted question……

I would check ou the Ruger LCR. They just added .357mag to the line up this year. It is a very light double action only hammerless revolver. No hammers protruding to snag on the draw. No slide to deal with. Unlike semi autos you will not have a jam to clear and if there is a dead round just pull the trigger and it will move to the next round unlike Glocks and other semi autos where you have to operate the slide. The weight on the trigger is your safety. So it is a gun that is easy to draw and easy to shoot(just point and pull the trigger). It is extremy durable and lightweight for the type gun it is.

As for me….I have guns and love guns. But I neither carry a gun or bear spray in bear country or anytime on the trail. Will there be a day that I wish I had one or the other? A good Possibility. But I've lived a good life.

[Mark Primack]

I've been a senior manager of public and private land for most of the last thirty years and a ranger before that. I used to be active in national associations of land managers and rangers. I used to pay attention to the Crime in Parks reports and statistics. In all those years I cannot recall one report or a single incident where someone saved themselves from either a bear or human attack by carrying a hand gun. Not one.

Additionally, away from trailheads and big campgrounds there is an infintesimal prospect of danger. The number of violent crimes reported from the backcountry by all federal and state agencies in any year amounts to less than a handful of incidents out of millions of visitors. What violent crime does occur in state and national parks–again, mostly in big public campgrounds–occur between people who either know each other–typically drunken friends–or are family members.

The fact is that you are in far far more danger driving down the street to pick up a quart of milk than you are from an assault in the backcountry. Then again, facts have never gotten in the way of either paranoia or machismo–that's the nature of the male psyche.

PS:I've been handling guns and occasionally hunting since I was eight or nine years old, and spent much of my professional career working with armed enforcement officers, so I have no problem with guns per se. In the backcountry, they are just a weight and psychological burden. Better to carry a lawn chair!

[Rodney OndaRock]

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_N_pot19.4912612.html

With budget cuts, the rangers are understaffed to monitor the pot farms in the national forest.

With the border inspections getting slightly more restrictive on drug smugglers, the pot farmers moved inside the border.

In the San Jacinto mountains NF, every year they are doing an aerial inspection and bust. but only enough budget for 1 raid per year at the end of the growing season.

Times are changing rapidly . For the past two decades, never had any problems, just the occasional off-leash out of control dog, broken beer bottles or teenage graffiti.

Smooth talking your way "Cheech and Chong style" with drug mafia is pointless. It's not personal, it's business. With a $35 Million operation, there are machine guns and shallow graves to keep YOU quiet.

As stated earlier, it's not fear, it's insurance and protection. I'm not seeking trouble, but I either give up stealth camping in the bush or I increase my protection insurance.

My main concern is when tent sleeping – most vulnerable to wild animals and humans attackers outside the tent. Bear spray is ineffective in this situation, because the person holding the spray can is inside the tent. If you are having difficulty understanding my point, pretend the solo UL tent is an elevator cab, and pretend the pepper spray is a very potent fart. People (and bears) outside the elevator are not affected by this skunk defense.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Fred Thorp]

"I used to pay attention to the Crime in Parks reports and statistics. In all those years I cannot recall one report or a single incident where someone saved themselves from either a bear or human attack by carrying a hand gun. Not one."

Given that the law only recently changed to allow carry in parks, and still only in some states, I wouldn't expect much different.

"Additionally, away from trailheads and big campgrounds there is an infintesimal prospect of danger."

Come down to the border and bring your lawn chair.

[Sumi Wada]

I always find it a little amusing that so many people assume they're going to turn into Steven Seagal in a threatening situation. I, for one, KNOW that I'm no Laura Croft. In the middle of the night when I'm half asleep, I can easily be stumped by my tent zipper, so deploying a weapon with any efficiency (or effectively) is really unlikely.

So, for me, my dog is a much more dependable weapon. He's a passive deterrent, has better hearing, bigger teeth and is a lot more coordinated in the middle of the night.

[Rick Dreher]

Matt, you are a man to be reckoned with. You are hereby awarded this thread and the Internets for one day.

Cheers,

Rick

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