Solo Wilderness Security

With a $35 Million operation, there are machine guns and shallow graves to keep YOU quiet.

Confronted by someone with a machine gun, the *last* thing I'd do is start waving a handgun around. I doubt the pot farmers inside the border machine gun people into shallow graves too often anyway. It's bad for business.

"The fact is that you are in far far more danger driving down the street to pick up a quart of milk than you are from an assault in the backcountry. Then again, facts have never gotten in the way of either paranoia or machismo–that's the nature of the male psyche."

+1

I was watching the original karate kid with my son the other week. Mr Miagi said the best way to block a punch was to not be there when it landed.

I think if you or your friend are this concerned about their personal safety, perhaps you should just stay home.

I have to agree carrying a weapon is fear related, not prudence. You can always justify things by saying what if this happened, then I would be protected, but in reality that rarely happens, and even in the cases it does, the user is rarely able to protect themselves.

Police statistics point this out over and over again. Even with their level of training, they often fail in the line of fire. How many shows have you seen where trained experienced officers are unable to either get to their weapon, or miss their target.

I have seen reports where over 30 rounds were fired by police at a single target, and they all missed.

Fear, panic, and the rush of emotion that surely comes in that situation can not be trained for effectively by the average home user.

I really am not directing this at anyone, and in no way really fault anyone for their beliefs as I hope I am not faulted by mine, but I do sincerely believe most people simply take comfort in the fact they have a weapon, and the reality of it is, in a life threatening situation, more often than not they fail to defend themselves well.

Carrying = I'm afraid?

What a joke. I choose not to be a victim. I've carried daily for over 10 years and have never needed to use it. However, if I need it, I have it. I'm not afraid at all. Personally I blame crime on people who don't carry. "An armed society is polite society."

I don't always carry when I'm hiking, but when weight isn't an issue, I have it.

Anyone who relies on the police for protection and not themselves, are pretty ignorant in my opinion.

@Rodney
That's why I really don't like tent camping anymore, even if someone else carries it in. Many years ago when I was just a young kid, camping out on some back road of Mendo NF, someone drove up and starting walking around our camp with out announcing who he was. I almost pointed a shotgun barrel right at his face, which would not have been good… (he was LEO) I noticed his truck before I saw him luckily. That has kind of scared me off from tent camping.

That would have scare me away from carrying a gun. Statistically, you are more likely to kill yourself, a family member or friend that you are to kill a foe.

@ Mark "I have seen reports where over 30 rounds were fired by police at a single target, and they all missed."

I have shot at the range with several LEO who missed their targets when there was no stress.

You are either a good shot or you are not. if you are not then practice, if you are still a lousy shot then sucks to be you.

These are misleading comparisons about the danger of one option being greater of another.

That is only relevant if I was trying to decide to live the forest instead of live in the city. Discussing City security is irrelevant here. I still live in the city, and the occasional wilderness weekend outing.

it's like trying to compare which is worse for you, bacon cholesterol versus cigarettes. Irrelevant category comparison.

The main discussion of this thread is specifically asking those who:
1) are concerned about the wilderness security factors, and
2) are packing in the wilderness,
3) what is their BPL security gear of choice, close range almost point blank for bear, mountain lion, & drug mafia when stealth camping in the bush, and sleeping in a solo UL tent with limited visibility.

Some people:
a) don't carry any protection, but have a nice toothbrush.
b) carry only pepper spray only.
c) carry pepper spray and are packing.
d) carry a modified knife
e) carry a CCW
f) bring a dog for early warning.
g) all of the above.

If you guys are going to post things as FACTS then back it up. This thread is getting overran by people with diarrhea of the mouth.

@Rog Tallbloke (tallbloke)

"I doubt the pot farmers inside the border machine gun people into shallow graves too often anyway. It's bad for business."

You may be right about the machine guns. They * do * have them, according to the police after the raids, they always find them in camp, although the south of the border drug mafia prefers to use quiet machetes to dispose of their unexpected witnesses.

They regularly have severed heads on the side of the road in the Arizona Texas border area. You are right, those were not cut with bullets.

If you are going to carry for protection you should understand what stress shooting is and train for it. Without that training most could not hit a person sized target at ten feet. I have a friend that had a company that provided stress training services for the police. He said the difference was amazing. When he put trained police in a stressful situation against non-stressed opponents the police ALWAYS lost. And they were trained.

Know what will happen to you when attempting to shoot under stress. Otherwise you will make things worse for yourself.

BTW, I very strongly believe that we ALL have the inalienable right to protect ourselves (and loved ones) without relying on anyone else, should we choose to do so. And we have the right to "keep and bear arms" as a tool to be used for that protection.

@ Frank Steele (knarfster)
"You are either a good shot or you are not."

The scenario discussed here is not shooting at a gun range or police hunting a fugitive that is evading bullets with the advice of Mr Myagi or doing the Neo Matrix move.

The attacker is close range. almost point blank. and the attacker is not running away. In the Norway situation as well as the NOLS attacks, the hungry bear was in the process of consuming the limb of the camper in the tent. Bear spray not a functional option, in a closed tent space. The Norway case, the rifle malfunctioned the first few rounds.

"Police statistics point this out over and over again. Even with their level of training, they often fail in the line of fire. How many shows have you seen where trained experienced officers are unable to either get to their weapon, or miss their target."

"Even with their level of training" ??? Seriously? Most departments qualify for liability purposes. It couldn't be considered training. Statements like this really put my credibility meter in the red.

>> The fact is that you are in far far more danger driving down the street to pick up a quart of milk than you are from an assault in the backcountry.

Thanks for pointing this out. Driving is far more dangerous than a LOT of other things we worry about. It's a useful thing to remember if you're a nervous person. Sometimes I get anxious about flying…all I have to do is remember I was more at risk driving to the airport than I am on the plane. Problem solved.

Guns in the backcountry is an interesting theoretical discussion, but going by the numbers (as we like to do here) on both risk and weight, there's not enough justification for packing while 'packing.

I moved from Ireland to Belgian 3 years ago and utterly shocked as to how the locals drive.

I have driven in the US 3 or 4 times (including a 1000 mile road trip) and find it a cakewalk compared to Belgium :-)

I have always wanted to see a paper and spreadsheet of various options for bear protection.

brainstorming here-

All inclusive ie. bear canisters and hangs, electric fences, firearms and spray.

Weights, cost, lifespan.

Footnotes on effectiveness, proper use, carry, laws, and gear recommendations for
hiking areas.

—

Just did a family backpack into Grizzly and Wolf country and also where a 5 year old
was snatched by a cougar last year. Found scat in the trail with wolf toe nails in it
(saved it and had it ID'ed by the USFS biologist). Something is eating wolves!

Being as this place is just a 2 day walk for a Griz from my house has got me to thinking.

Don't want to end up like this guy–

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/aug/26/prosecutor-releases-details-north-idaho-grizzly-killing-case/

I've often wondered why I've never seen them mentioned. Are they that much more reclusive than bears that an encounter is that much more rare?

Lets just be real,
You are bound to get feminist barbs and macho "I don't need a gun" posturing when this subject comes up.
Its a fact of life that no matter how clever you are or how careful, what weapon you carry or how well trained you are, a determined person can victimize you.
The police carry because its effective for self defense, but they also play a confidence game knowing that the uniform signifys that there's s an army and a whole system to back them up.
I am all for responsible law abiding citizen carrying – its not my business. I just don't think its always the best strategy.
No matter what you do nothing is guaranteed. I would suggest:

– being prudent and avoiding suspicious people and situations
– study a martial art since its more likely you will be in a physical altercation than a gun battle and be willing to use violence without hesitation to make a quick escape.
– practice running or sprinting so you get away when you are out gunned.
– carry pepper spray for range and something like a retractable baton for close quarters. Remember to go for the eyes if a bear gets a hold of you.
You can tell Im bored when I respond to a gun thread.

@ fred

so fred, we are to believe that all the ccw persons in the us have equal or more training than the police?

You in my opinion prove my point, you say our police who have more training than the average ccw permitted person are not adept, then where does that leave the average ccw person.

You may be gods gift to shooting but to believe that any other are is what puts my credibility meter in the red.

Someone also posted they have carried for 10 years and not needed it, but were happy they had it just in case. I am 46 havent needed one in 46 years, and I suspect that the person who posted actually is older than 10 so in reality they havent needed it in 31 years or more (21 to buy a gun and 10 years of experience).

I personally believe this topic has no place on bpl.

how many triple crowners have carried weapons, or even bear spray. These guys and girls have spent more time hiking than most of us could even imagine, and I doubt very seriously any of them carried weapons on their triple crown hikes.

Having not hiked a triple crown, are those trails known for pot grows, meth labs or
grizzly bears?

I have been around guns since I was very small boy my father use to hunt and shoot skeet in club contest. My first daisy buffalo bill BB gun at 7 years old to learn how to shoot. Learned how to shoot real gun a 22 rifle and 12 gauge shot gun at age 9 years old in company of my father. Hunted a lot in Deluz area of far north San Diego county my 22. caliber pellet gun.
Use to have BB gun wars with friends when we were bored by the san luis rey river with simple rules no face shots. My friend cheated they wore heavy jackets. So I would tear off sneak around rocks like a sniper shooting their unprotected hands to win.
I was a Untied States Air Force Munition Maintenance specialist , My jobs consisted of bombs ,missiles, ammunition for planes, human carried guns,Stored and deliver supplies to EOD.
I missed my marksman ship ribbon by one shot because they gave me M-16 with crooked barrel that I asked to be exchanged and the instructor said deal with it. I had to adjust the sight and still aim 6 inches over to get a bull eyes. That my gun experience
So I am no stranger to firearms.

Rodney On da hill is right Riverside county has 14.4 percent unemployment rate so people are seeking other ways to make money.Marijuana growers in rural north san diego county and south riverside county have been around since the early 70's. Meth labs have been around also in the rural areas and urban neighbor hoods. A gang shot up the police headquarters and set police cars on fire in Hemet,Ca. like something out of the movies and it is one of the gate way towns to Mt.San Jacinto wilderness areas.

.
News Media, television shows ,film: has polluted are society with so much crime and fear that everybody thinks their time is up crime is banging at their door to kill them. Some human minds can take only so much and become paranoid and go in to full bore survivalist mode stock pileing guns, ammunition,food, living in the back country and swearing to shoot any city folks{Zombies} that invade during a natural disaster. Read some of the survivalist boards if you want a really good laugh. I am surprised we have not reverted back to a bomb shelter in every yard mode yet of the 50's and 60's during the cold war era that are government and media scared us in to.

Now here my take why I don't carry a Gun in to urban or wilderness areas I have been in a lot of bad urban gang area street skateboarding and working. I came to conclusion in my life I don't need guns in my life period. If I can't talk or evade my way out of something my time is up.

I also feel if you do carry gun in to wilderness area stumble on to meth labs ,marijuana growers they will think you are threat and stealing their crop or law enforcement and they will shoot ask question later.IMHO
Terry

God, not this gun thing again……………..

I'm with Terry just above me on this one

I just finished my version of the Triple Crown on the Summer solstice this year.
By Far the single biggest threat/fear I had was Lightning. There is no escaping it sometimes. Places on the divide were exposed and the only option to get away would have meant climbing down a rocky cliff. I came to terms with that fear and only hunkered down on my sleeping pad when the lightning bolts came simultenously with with the clap of thunder.
There is no more visceral fear (for me at least) than being "hunted" across a moonscape of boulders by a massive thunderstorm the way only Montana makes them.
My second biggest fear was Hail (they make golf ball sized hail out on the divide) then ticks and mosquitos.
Bears do not even make my list.
From my experience of hiking from Mexico to Canada twice and from Georgia to Maine the wild life has no interest in a stinky thru hiker stealth camped away from water, CG's, roads, and towns.
The most unpredictable animal in the woods continues to be man.
You want an example: Five dirtbikers wearing pistols racing up the CDT behind you. Or automatic fire heard in the dead of night on the PCT in Washington state. Or beer bottles being flung from the window of moving cars along the road on the A.T.
Fortunately you wont see many of them anywhere off-trail, away from water, or out of town either.
I slept with my food, while stealth camped, through bear country on all three trails and been harassed by nothing more than a single packrat. And rat stole a sock and a chunk of my shoulder strap leaving my food entirely alone.
Go ahead and carry a bazooka if thats what you want to do.
You have that right.
Though you will be the only one.
Not a single long distance hiker I met on any trail was visibly armed with anything more than pepper spray or a tiny pocket knife.
The only difficulty you might have is mailing that gun home (and you will) or crossing an international border when the time comes.

Gratz on your route. Also good to hear the report of a pretty peaceful trail.

It's all about what's comfortable. I personally carry bear spray as my first defense. But, I always have my Glock 23 and a fixed blade knife. In grizzly country I would want something bigger, but for where I'm at, it's the perfect size, weight, and durability. My 23 is my backpacking gun, not my daily carry.

For grizzly's, I would want a .44 mag or bigger. But I wouldn't carry anything that would interfere with me enjoying my time in the wilderness. I don't think the chances of something happening are very likely, but I wouldn't want to be that guy dead with a gun sitting at home.

Carrying a gun is all about personal preference. He asked for gun suggestions, not reason why he shouldn't carry : )