Down in the PNW

[rhonda rouyer]

Great post guys. I am learning so much that will be helpful on my hike.

Question…how would a silk liner inside my down bag affect the moisture? would it work like a vapor barrier?

[Travis Leanna]

>Question…how would a silk liner inside my down bag affect the moisture? would it work like a vapor barrier?

Unfortunately not at all. You need something that is completely impenetrable by water and water vapor.

There is potential that a silk liner will add to the problem by upping the temp rating for the bag by a few degrees, possibly making you sleep warmer, thus creating more sweat—but that's pure speculation on my part.

A great (and cheap) way to see if you'd like a VBL: You'll need two large garbage bags. Cut the end out of one of them, and duct tape them together to create one long bag that you can sleep in.

[Jason Elsworth]

Lots of people do use down in wet climates and it works fine most of the time. However, if I was doing a longer trip, esp in a single wall tent, and expecting many days of solid rain then I would give serious consideration to synthetics. Not because you can't keep down gear dry, but because of moisture build up in the bag.

[Brian Austin]

Bags/sleep system in coastal BC if going mountain climbing up high have to be good for 0F. So a little loss of loft is no big deal. We were right on the line between snow/rain as well(worst possible conditions). Biggest deal for such conditions is like I said, make sure you are not too warm in your sleeping bag as you will sweat out your sleeping bag if you are waiting out the rain. If its warmer, you probably jumped into your bag with wet clothes and chilled your body by wearing wet socks and your metabolism dropped creating little body heat? Likewise when you stop and are drying out, you must do so carefully. Get all that thermal mass warm, yourself included and pump said water out. heat it up, pump bag creating large drafts, close bag, heat up all that water vapor, pump.

Likewise erect your tent, keep your bags compressed and dry out your gear by simply wearing it inside the tent. Keep warm by sit ups/push ups if you have to. Then wear to bed. Very important to change to dry clothes so your body stays warm and keeps pumping heat out, but not sweating.

We had no reprieve at all for the several times I have waited out a week of rain. Coastal BC reprieves in rain are about 3 hours long, not nearly long enough for the brush to dry out. In those conditions either you stay in camp, or strip down to your shorts and either go for it, getting no clothes wet, or put on rain gear over this soaking said raingear but getting nothing else wet. Now, if you go for it, one is likely to get your PACK soaked and in this case your sleeping bag even if its in a standard stuff sack sold with said sleeping bags, will get wet from transfer of humidity if not outright liquid water from openings such as zippers etc. In this instance, Vapor Barrier socks/shirt etc work well as well as pack liners. Feels rather funny for the first 5 minutes worn till things even out. I have only recently started using VB, and the above experiences are without said VB.

typical rain garb for brushy areas, are boots, no socks, gaitors, No pants, or rainshell if its brushy, no underwear, swimtrunks, undershirt tightfitting, wool as its wet when warm, though dries slower, or polypro, rainshell, no hat, or hat, if on trail one can think about an umbrella. With VB always wear VB socks…

Does this help at all?

[Doug Johnson]

Rhonda- no the silk is not a vb- in fact it's quite breathable. To imagine a vapor barrier think silnylon, cuben, or plastic bag. All silk does from what I understand is keep your bag clean and give a more comfy feeling. Not much in insulation there and no vb for sure.

RE: sagging silnylon. Yes, par for the course. My spinnaker GGear/Tarprent Squall Classic sags less, as have cuben tents/tarps. Adjustable guylines are good and adding a bungee at the attachment helps too. Attaching the guyline to a springy tree branch and putting some spring in the system also helps avoid this.

Really nice single wall in the heavy rain is the Tarptent Rainshadow 2 for 2 people. It's well sized for 3 people and with 2 you have the space to sit out a long storm in comfort. No chance of hitting the walls and at 2.5 pounds it's still much lighter than most double walls with half the space. Oh- you can jack up the front with extend-able trekking poles too to make a palace. :-)

[Doug Johnson]

Re: eVent "tent"- yes, bivy is the correct term. But these are very "tent-like":

Rab eVent bivy: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/2007_rab_summit_extreme_tent_review.html

Integral Designs eVent bivy: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/integral_designs_wedge_bivy_review.html

No longer available Nemo Tenshi eVent- a true full-height tent: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/nemo_tenshi_tent_review.html

I never owned an older Gore-Tex tent. But I did review this and it was great, but not quite as great as eVent in breathability:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/outdoor_designs_summit_extreme_tent_review.html

[rhonda rouyer]

Rhonda- no the silk is not a vb- in fact it's quite breathable. To imagine a vapor barrier think silnylon, cuben, or plastic bag

Thanks for the comment. So I could make a VB out of my old silnylon tarp? Might be a good project. I guess it is helpful that my 32 degree bag has a zipper at the foot box that acts as a vent. Better to sleep cooler than warmer is what I am hearing.

[Sam Farrington]

>"Down is suitable for any environment"

Guess I should admit up front that some of the posts really frosted me.
Note that the OP asked only about "outerwear."

Once on a Long Trail hike for 7 days in the early spring in northern Vermont, it rained constantly. So much that after a few days, even with rain pants over my boot tops, every half hour or so I had to empty my boots and wring out my sox just to be able to hike. The rain just did not stop for day after night after day. There often were no dry places to step. Were it not for the many shelters on the Trail, I would not have been able to continue. Fortunately, I had a bag and jacket with synthetic insulation, well protected in my pack. It was not so cold as to make the jacket a must while hiking, despite some shivering, so it and the bag just got a little damp. And there are lots of quick exits off the Long Trail. I was lucky.

Previously, on another cold hike on the AT in Maine in similar but not quite so rainy circumstances, my down bag got about the same amount of damp, and became worthless; dangerous actually, because it made me even more vulnerable to the cold.
If unfamiliar with the science, just wrap up in something wet with no insulative value, and see how you feel when exposed to the cold for only a few minutes.

Fortunately, that early AT experience taught me to bring along synthetic insulation, and the later LT hike, while not much fun, was safe and reasonably comfortable. I fully understand why the instructors in Diane's class said what they did, in the interest of the class being safe rather than sorry in wet, exposed mountain environments.

Now that we have much more reliable DWR treatments and WPB materials, if you PAY for them and maintain them, and if you are very experienced and careful, it is possible to keep down sleepwear usable in cold, torrential weather, even when tenting. But while skiing, or hiking mostly in the open, exposed all day to whatever mother nature can throw at you? There are much better insulation alternatives.

Even if you have developed the expertise to use down effectively in such situations, it is not responsible to encourage others, who may be inexperienced, to do so. Especially in our sport, where backcountry huts and shelters are often absent, and an exit may take quite a while.
That's MO, folks.

P.S. Forgot to mention, "hypothermia." If I had not seen hikers with it, and learned how to detect the symptoms in myself, and respond quickly, I doubt very much I'd still be alive today.

[Travis Leanna]

>It was not so cold as to make the jacket a must while hiking, despite some shivering, so it and the bag just got a little damp.

How were they packed in your pack? Were they wet from rain, or just the ambient humidity?

> it is possible to keep down sleepwear usable in cold, torrential weather, even when tenting. But while skiing, or hiking mostly in the open, exposed all day to whatever mother nature can throw at you? There are much better insulation alternatives.

Down sleepwear and garments worn in high-energy applications are (or should be) two very different things. Unless I missed it above, I don't think anyone was arguing to wear down clothing while hiking or skiing.

[James holden]

one point most people dont consider is that 900 fill down isnt 900 fill with humidity

it could easily be 700 fill or so with 50% humidity … with the 90%+ humidity how much insulation is it providing?

hmmmmmm

either way many people will either use down like a religion regardless of what others think … and many others wont … same with merino vs. synthetics

like i said its telling that some of the BPL staff (or former staff) do use synthetic in certain situations … if anyone has the skill to not mess up, itll be them

Ryan Jordan
( ryan – BPL STAFF – M)

Locale:
Greater Yellowstone

NEW Re: Re: Re: Introduction to Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008 on 08/10/2008 08:04:56 MDT

Bill et al.,

I spoke at length with IDFL yesterday about down testing.

None of their tests stimulate real world testing. 900 fp in a test is going to be a pipe dream in the field, because they steam wash and dry the down to nearly zero humidity before doing the test. Ironically, this most recent iteration of test methods was designed to determine the maximum possible fill power for down rather than what it will look like in the field.

Interestingly as a side note, we did some 900 fp testing of down a few years ago on two manufacturer's 900 bags. We cut the bags open and sent them to IDFL. Neither made the claimed 900 spec (they tested 830-870 using the steam method). What was more dramatic was that when each down (which clearly came from different sources as evidenced by visual inspection) was subjected to 50% humidity, the differences were pretty dramatic. One bag tested at 770 fp, the other at 680 fp. It seems that at least these two sources of 900 down had feathers in it that were not resilient in response to humidity.

The kicker is that we ran the same test next to down taken from a manufacturer's 750 fp bag. at 50% humidity, the fp was 720. Why? It had more feathers that were stiff enough to preserve the loft in moist conditions.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=39920

[Travis Leanna]

Nice info, Eric.

Not that us consumers will ever get it, but it'd be great if they required some sort of "humidity rating" on insulating pieces of gear as well. Maybe something to the effect of:

0%=900fp=30F
25%=800fp=33F
50%= 750fp=36F
75%=700fp=40F
100%=600fp=43F

Obviously I just pulled those numbers out my butt, but you get the idea.

[Brian Austin]

EDIT: Noticed that several posted the humidity factor of down and loss of thermal efficiency. Of course synthetic also loses thermal efficiency. And add in the fact that when your body temperature heats the bag up, said thermal efficiency comes back as the water vapor leaves. Took too long posting this as I went away and came back and hit post and then saw several other very good posts above this.

If you were referring to my posts as to why Down is ok in rain, I think you might have missed a very key point. Not that I blatantly typed said point, rather a point that is not obvious at a quick glance.

In rain, as you typed, BBags get humid and trap moisture. You can't get away from that fact. To dry them out you have to use your body heat every night. If you expect 30 degrees and take a 30 degree down bag you won't have as much insulation as you thought due to said humidity build up and the ability to stay warm is hard in rainy conditions on top of that as what you will be wearing will also be wet unless you take 2 sets of underclothes, or baselayer clothing, which everyone here in the ol' PNW does.

If you have a Barely there sleep system for said temperatures and then add rain and humidity, drying said down sleep system out is difficult to do. Why? Because there is less "dry" or even semi-dry insulation to trap said heat and warm up the entire bag and you. Certain sections of said BBAG will let more heat out. Since your body only produces "x" Watts of heat a BBAG with less available insulation will not heat up and will therefore not dry the sleeping bag out. It is also not a linear relationship either. If you really want to know, open a Heat Transfer book.

So, one needs a sleep system that surpasses the temperature point to take into effect high humidity and rain. Generally around 30F-40F is the high humidity point, or worst conditions. I have personally always used down bags in lots and Lots and LOTS of rain. Of course I need said extra temperature rating along with my clothes for much colder temps at higher elevations and this gets me through the hypothermia 30-40F points. Heck, I have routinely camped outside in light rain without a tarp till we finally gave up and went home, but said bag also had Goretex face fabric, but it most certainly was not seam taped, this does not count as it was hardly backpacking "light". Though I was camping for a weekend with no shelter, so I suppose I "saved" weight. Would have been happier with a shelter and a lighter bag though as playing cards in the rain, truly sucks. Add even a tarp and it would have been enjoyable even with only 24" height from stacked rocks and ice axes.

Now, I have also been stupid and tried sleeping in just my down jacket and a bivy bag. Sure enough, down jacket lost its insulation power as it got humid and damp and then I got really really really cold. But take same humidity and dampness that was in my jacket and insert it into a down bag good for "20F" while its pouring rain out and even though said bag is heavy with humidity it has the ability to trap said body heat I generated and dry itself out as it doesn't have a giant seam at the waist.

PS. I used to work outside in the rain day in and day out at a greenhouse and nursery. Why I know for a fact that several name brand Goretex shoes/boots are not waterproof. Rather cheap work boots with good ol' wax is light years better. I got to the point where unless it was raining hard, I would just wear fleece 200 and after it stopped raining between my body heat from working hard and how little water the fleece retained, it would be dry in 2-3 hours. No DWR on said fleece. No shaking out of said fleece. Now if it was raining hard, I would strip down to shorts and a T-Shirt and yellow bellied rubber waterproof pants and waterproof top. I would be drenched in sweat if I had to run and work hard even in 40F pouring rain. But, I would have dry clothes later.

Rain, if you move in it, take as many clothes off as possible and either just get wet, or move slow and don't sweat.
Snow, just wear as few clothes as possible and don't sweat.

In either case you gotta watch for hypothermia. Why its better to be cold and know it, keeping dry clothes in your pack than to wear said clothes getting them wet and have nothing to put on when the temperature drops further yet.

I have used synthetic bags as well. When I had no money, I would hike with a coleman polyester bag. They would get wet just as readily as a down bag and they were just as hopless when it came to insulating power. I also never saw them drying out much faster than down. The difference is that Down losses its insulating power faster for the same amount of wetted bag as down feathers clump up when they get wet.

I have personally not used modern synthetic sleeping bags. I have rubbed "elbows" with them. Though I remember one friend buying one and immedietely sending it back as it was not only over a pound heavier, but also far far bulkier and hard to pack.

I would admit that if you are going to be using a bivy bag where one is far more likely to rub against condensation or no bivy bag at all I would grab a synthetic bag as they absorb less water than down, thus your body heat has to evaporate less water.

BUT: I don't know about you, but I don't plan on hiking in the rain for weeks on end. I know, some poor folks hiking the last stages of the PCT in Sept/Oct here in WA can get smashed. Read several reports like that.

PS. Want dry feet in the rain? Get real leather boots that have been sealed with wax. Need such contraptions for snow anyways. I know anathema to the light weight tennis shoe only crowd. Goretex lined shoes/boots are not waterproof. Water will seep in at the bottom where its stitched into the sole to start with and second of all, if you aren't wearing VB socks in the rain, then your feet continue to sweat, soaking said socks/shoes even more. In non rain weather on leather shoes, your feet actually evaporate quite a bit of water vapor out through said leather.

For an excellent write up on Vapor Barrier and why you NEED it. Look at warmlite.com and click vapor barrier. It is long, but if you Plough through it to the end, you will learn several useful things. I know I did.

PPS. To the OP. I have done plenty of snowshoeing and winter climbing in the PNW. If you limit yourself to low valleys then the humidity is far higher as the temperatures will be warmer and closer to 32F. The higher you get, the better it is. As winter ends and spring begins, you can get very high humidity at high elevations as well as low. Usually this is not the case in the winter.

Stirs the pot and checks to see if the mud is properly distributed for maximum murkiness. Yup, murkier.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I just wore VaprThrms on a 3 night trip around Crater Lake. Temps 10-45! I never took off those VBLs once and my feet were always comfy. No socks, just VbL and boot. Add a Primaloft over booty at night.

Before too much thread drift by me- I'm thinking of trying VBLs to sleep in even in the mild temps where VBLs aren't 'necessary' such as AK or something.

You guys think the dew alone would kill your bag over a few nights? (assuming you slept in VBLs.

I'm interested in testing the upper limits in temp of VBLs. say a thin wool shirt and a vbl shirt over it… I guess I'm more thinking about hiking

DRIFT- sorry

[Douglas Ray]

One comment that I think has been made, but I would like to re-iterate about keeping a sleeping bag dry in wet weather is that a bigger shelter makes this much easier.

Weather you camp in floor less pyramid, a single-wall non-breathable tent, single-wall breathable tent, or a double-wall tent (all of which have condensation at times), if you have enough room to not brush the walls it is much easier to keep your sleeping bag dry. If you have enough room to sit up and cook and hang out inside than it is easier to keep everything dry.

[Brian Austin]

+++++++++++1 Vote here. This is especially true on most tarp style tents as they generally don't pull their sides out all that well on the super light models that I have sen. I have had to modify several for just this reason. Modified our Tarptent Cloudburst 2 for an extra middle pole and the ability to take this tent into winter storm conditions.

[Evan McCarthy]

I too am curious about using VBLs outside of their normal low-low comfort range. I'll be playing with an RBH VBL bag liner and my quilt, plus an RBH NTS shirt, and of course the VBL socks. Since the mid-Atlantic doesn't get and stay as cold as some of the areas you others backpack in, I want to see if VBLs can be used longer into the shoulder seasons. In another thread we worried about the loft of quilts in the winter, and the JRB High Sierra in particular, so I want to see how "lofty" I can keep my winter quilt expectations.

[Jerry Adams]

I got some "fuzzy stuff" from warmlite and made a vapor barrier pants and long sleeve shirt.

Used it on a few trips in Oregon/Washington, temperatures down to 30F,

My conclusion was at those temperatures vapor barrier didn't do much. Lighter, non vapor barrier pants and shirt were just as warm.

If you have vapor barrier sleeping bag liner, then you can't wear clothes inside to extend temperature range, so you need a heavier sleeping bag, so you end up carrying much more weight.

Warmilte bags are super heavy, but you can be naked in them.

The example given at warmlite.com is for an artic expedition – cold temperatures, many days – for that case vapor barrier is probably critical but way out of my experience or future.

[Jeffs Eleven]

But if you have vapor barrier clothes you can wear other clothes in your bag.

In an attempt at a ghetto vbl I slept in thin wool and thin syn shirts then my light shell then my UL down jacket and was comfortable and warm. -I woke up in the middle of the night cold and put my rain coat under the down and warmed up. I think I had a little micro-climate goin' on

[James holden]

you can easily use yr clothes with a vbl …

just put them OVER yr bag

[Brian Austin]

I have found it really depends on how much you sweat. This determines the temperature range. I sweat a lot compared to most folks, so the temperature range that VBL is good for is different than the average "Joe". Well, actually those that sweat far less can actually wear it over a wider temperature range assuming its not super humid out in which case this brings both folks down to about the same level I have found. Like Randy who I climb with quite often. He is a bean pole and has far more area in which to convect/radiate heat away from his body than my far thicker heavier boned frame. Also when you wear VB, this decreases the skin area you can sweat from, increasing said sweat rate on said area. Sweating, evaporating water, is the best way to stay cool as our bodies aren't even close to 100% efficient. The more efficient your body is, the wider range you can wear VBL and therefore keep your clothes dry.

Like everything else, person to person, Your Miles May Vary(YMMV). In this case quite a bit.

I have never found something to be Panacea for all conditions and for all persons.

[Doug Johnson]

Vapor Barrier experimentation is fascinating. RBH Designs is a great place to start: http://www.rbhdesigns.com/index.cfm

I have a pair of RBH VB socks that I wear with Gore Tex running shoes for multi-night igloo trips and it totally works. I also have a pair of RBH gloves and they work amazingly well.

Definitely a clammy environment so a VB bag liner will add a lot of moisture to anything on the inside. I've never tried VB beyond socks and gloves but have been very curious about VB clothing worn under insulation inside a lighter weight bag.

For those that have no experience with vapor barrier stuff, do this. Go to bed tonight with socks on- one plain and the other with a plastic bag underneath the sock. Watch what happens.

Vapor barrier is a widely misunderstood and even more widely underutilized concept. Most of us have been raised on wick moisture from the skin, move it through the layers, and exit via waterproof breathable fabrics. Vapor barriers flip that concept upside down and it's counter to what most of us have experienced.

[Sam Farrington]

Travis,

Re: "How were they packed in your pack? Were they wet from rain, or just the ambient humidity?"

In a twist-tie sealed plastic bag inside a stuff sack. They still got damp. The air in the shelters was very humid, damp, with some dripping from roof leaks. Another example; It's late and it's cold – if you leave the shelter several times to p**, do you put the rain shell on over the puffy jacket – oh, but the rain shell is wet inside, from either hours of rain, or condensation from hiking. An enigma wrapped inside a conundrum … etc. A few nights were in a tent, and the inside walls were quite damp, the fly soaked and drippy on entry and exit. Waterworld. (Note: My snoring is so bad now, that when a sweet young lady popped into the shelter around 9 PM this last spring, the only kind thing to do was chat a bit, then go out into the rain and put up the tent. And then there was the college outing club in Maine that prided itself on filling the shelters wall to wall squeezed in like sardines (a little reminiscent of the native canadians sleeping together in the novel, Black Robe) – tried to shake them ((the Mainiacs, not the Canadians)) for days – couldn't – used the tent. Fortunately, the rain abated on these other journeys, and all became well.)

Re: "Down sleepwear and garments worn in high-energy applications are (or should be) two very different things. Unless I missed it above, I don't think anyone was arguing to wear down clothing while hiking or skiing."

Won't try to rehash what was argued, but the OP asked about:
"… a snowshoeing/backcountry skiing class, where the instructors both categorically stated that the maritime mountains in Washington and Oregon are NOT country for down outerwear *** So far, we've gotten really lucky, and have not been out on a prolonged hike in completely pouring rain. I know that synthetic vs. down gets thrashed around a lot …"

If no one was arguing to wear down clothing while hiking or skiing, then GOOD!
Or should I say, "never-mind."

Also, very interesting about the VBL's Tried them when Warmlite first promoted them, and found them very uncomfortable in all applications, but appreciate there are some who find them otherwise. (OK, I really think they are nuts.)

[Evan McCarthy]

I posted earlier in this thread that I was going to try an RBH sleeping bag VBL liner before the season was out . . . but I actually just returned it and will try an RBH NTS shirt instead, for use both on the trail during the day with minimal insulation and at night with my puffy layers tossed on over the shirt. Not sure yet whether I'll put a thin layer underneath the RBH shirt (Icebreaker 150 or summer-weight synthetic) or not; I think this will be a game-time call. The weather for our outing this weekend will range from 40 degree days to 15 degree nights so I'll be pushing the acknowledged limits of the VBL temp range. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

In the eastern U.S. or the PNW I'd use down only in a sleeping bag and a camp-only light down jacket like my Eddie Bauer Downlite Sweater.

ALL the rest of my insulative clothing would be either Climashield or Thermolite insulated garments, like my Thermolite Micro jacket and pants.

When hiking with a pack the back of a down jacket WILL get soaked with sweat and may not dry out until you get it home. Don't ask me how I know. (It was a – 5 F. weekend too!)

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