Down in the PNW

You can use down in the PNW. just have to keep it dry.

Either put it in a waterproof bag or have a waterproof pack.

If you're exercising make sure you're not sweating.

And if it's raining have a good raincoat or wait to put the down on when you're in your tent.

etc….

I just got a down vest and it's much better when it goes below 32F and it weighs half as much as synthetic vest for the same warmth.

If down really didn't make sense in the Northwest, than Feathered Friends wouldn't be in business. I agree with what Jerry said, you just have to keep it dry. As he said, that means protecting it from the moisture you generate, as well as the stuff that comes from the sky. Of course, we have days when it really isn't coming from the sky, but all of the air around you (basically, you are in the cloud). In that condition, keeping things dry is a little more challenging (but still not impossible).

Either you're practicing proper moisture management or you're not. I don't care where you live or what the average annual rainfall is in that area.

Didn't make a lot of sense to me. Like I said, I carry it in waterproof bags, I wear clothes inside my bag that are usually dedicated to sleeping so it's not like I'm wearing sweaty trail clothes inside my bag.

I have heard several people advocate wearing wet clothes to dry them. It would seem to be difficult in our damp cool weather here, and what about wearing wet clothes in a down sleeping bag?

Anyone got specific tips for keeping down dry while camping in the clouds ? Do you have to use a bivy or tent ?

I sometimes wear damp socks in my synthetic sleeping bag in Western Oregon and Washington and they dry out by morning, even in humid conditions.

And jacket, pants, or shirt but they usually dry out in a couple hours in my tent before getting in sleeping bag. You need to have clothing that doesn't absorb much water so it dries out quickly.

I think that most high end down gear these days has a very good DWR treatment. I haven't had any problems with down in the PNW. Just don't submerge it during a stream crossing. You know just "duh" type stuff.

I guess ducks and geese must avoid the PNW since their down doesn't work. :)

Thanks for the tips.

Down is suitable for any environment. I often hear people say stuff like "I don't use down because if it gets wet…" or what you mentioned about certain areas being 'too humid.' I think all of these assertions are ridiculous. Down does require you to actively try and keep it dry but why would you feel more comfortable getting a synthetic bag wet? Yes they would retain more insulating properties but wet is wet, and miserable no matter what your bag is filled with. As for where you use a down bag, I also find this ridiculous to say it is suitable one place and not another. I went a winter trip to Utah and after cowboy camping my quilt was 'soaked' by frost. Obviously, drying only took 20 min in the sun. But I used the same quilt in Olympic NP over Thanksgiving, and never had much of a problem, just normal condensation. If that worries you a bivy would provide plenty of extra protection from condensation/frost.

The myth has been going around for many years (undoubtedly boosted by makers of synthetic insulation) that synthetic insulation is "warm when wet." My own experience (30 years ago now) shows that this is not the case–a soggy synthetic bag is just as cold as a soggy down bag! This was the trip in which a nice flat area turned into a lake overnight when a cloudburst hit about 9 pm, kept going for most of the night and then turned to snow. We did a lot of wringing out and holding bags over the fire the next morning, which resulted in smoke-smelling bags but very little drying. We finally packed up and hiked out, reaching the trailhead about dark.

The important thing is not the type of insulation, but keeping it dry! Use a waterproof pack liner with waterproof closure or a dry bag for your insulation–stuff sacks and pack covers are not waterproof. Be careful to select a camp site that won't become a lake in heavy rain. Protect your puffy jacket from sweat–wear it at stops, not while exercising hard. Protect it from rain by wearing it under your rain jacket.

Google the weather stats for the Olympics. What you will see is moderate temperatures, lots of precip and high humidity, and *no* direct sun. It is like hiking in a cold wet sponge. Your perspiration has nowhere to go. You will wake up in the morning covered in dew and condensation. Fleece is the best in this envirnoment and down is terrible. Synthetic bags are much easier to live with. You don't need to expose down to direct moisture to get it damp in cold high humidity enviroments. Same for cotton. You can't depend on the sun for drying– even Seattle has 260+ days a year with overcast and the Olympics and the west side of the Cascades get even more. The Ho River area gets 200+ inches of rain per year and the lower elevations of the Cascades get upwards of 100 inches.

Go a few miles on the other side of the mountains and you have desert conditions. Down is great in cold, dry weather.

And the down on a goose doesn't get wet as the outer feathers keep it dry and the goose spends a lot of time on maintenance. "Like water rolling off a duck's back" has real meaning. If the down gets wet the goose is cooked, so to speak.

Diane,
The only thing I've worn wet to bed in my down bag were my socks. I dried them out each night in Glacier NP by wearing them to bed. Even when the temps got to the low 30's, my socks were dry by morning. There may have been a bit of moisture in my sleeping bag footbox, but that dried out pretty quickly. I wouldn't wear wet pants or shirts to bed, and if your vestments are made of the right material, they'll usually dry within 30-45 minutes while hiking. When conditions are cool and damp, clothes will take forever to dry out on a clothesline, while body heat will do wonders.

As far as down clothing goes, if you're exerting enough energy to create enough sweat to dampen your clothing, then you're TOO warm. As long as I'm hiking, I'm usually good with a heavy baselayer, my thin synthetic pants, and a softshell jacket. This will take me down to 10-15 degrees. I have no experience camping colder than that yet, so the rules may change as it gets even colder.

I'd rather have the common sense for correctly protecting my down items than foolishly forgoing extra precautions simply because I'm using synthetic and "don't have to worry as much."

do a little impromptu survey of past PCT thru hikers, I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority used down bags and I'm guessing that most wouldn't change that- practice good technique in keeping it dry (just like you would a syn bag!)

clothing I think you'd find more of a split, but no reason down garments couldn't be used effectively by keeping the garments dry

the question is how confident are you that you wont screw up?

cotton works great as well … just dont get it wet

the difference between down and synth … is that with synth you can usually dry it out quite a bit with body heat and a hot nalgene

with thin down sweaters you may be able to dry it out without the sun in the field …. anything thicker, not likely

if you have an all down system … let me ask … what is your plan if you get one of them wet? … would you dry down jacket inside yr down bag? …. or can you bail if your bag gets damp?

for those who believe that synth is just dead weight … note that mr jordan and skurka have used synth quite a bit in their travels … notably on the alaska trip … if anyone else had the skills to not screw up and wanted to be as light as possible … itll be them

down works great … just dont get it wet …

When I head out in the winter, I generally divide my insulation into three components: down, wool, and synthetic. My sleeping bag is down, plus maybe one fat parka. My heavy trousers and at least one shirt will be wool, plus maybe socks, a hat, or gloves. There is synthetic all over the place, from long johns to socks to shirts.

Each material kind of has its own slot for strengths, and each material has its weaknesses as well.

–B.G.–

Cold and damp aside, methinks trip duration should also figure in.

I live in relatively dry So Cal — so no problem with my down bag — and yes, I too agree that just a bit of common sense precaution (i.e. the exact same thing one would do to protect synthetic layers from rain and water mishap) was all that's needed.

No direct experience, but what about multi-day hikes cold, damp weather with continuous rain to boot? I'm still wondering about the effect of accumulated body moisture in a down bag — with rainy days that prevent any chance of airing out one's bag to dry??

Nikwax makes a product called Down Proof that purportedly prevents down from absorbing moisture while also renewing DWR. I've not used the product, so cannot endorse it.

I've done extensive backpacking year-round in Washington and I agree with many of the above posts- down is a viable choice in our climate. Here are some caveats:

– You have to be aware of where the dew point is within you layering system. Often you can dry clothing only to deposit that moisture within the down of your sleeping bag. This is why sleeping with down clothing inside a synthetic bag makes sense.

– Trip length matters a lot. On a multi-day constant rain and condensation trip, your down is likely to accumulate moisture day to day, reducing loft. These conditions are the hardest for down. I've been on many trips when drying things out was impossible.

– Sleeping with wet clothing is dangerous due to moisture accumulation that doesn't pass completely out of the bag. On multi-day wet trips I've had the down in the foot area collapse from wearing wet socks to bed. Warm feet the first night, freezing the last. Better to keep the damp socks at your core and even better to not allow ANY moisture into a down bag from my experience.

– I like to mix down with synthetics so I won't suffer if everything gets wet. At least my synthetics will be warm. That said, I often use synthetic clothing with synthetic quilts. Modern synthetics are close enough in weight and I like being warm no matter what. Also, I'm often a minimalist with minimal overlap of insulation. With all synthetics, I don't have to worry as much if I accumulate moisture. That said, my winter bags are always down to keep weight and bulk down. Also, my winter trips are usually shorter.

– To make down work in serious rain, I always use a dry bag and often a pack cover as well. Respect and protect the down and you'll be just fine.

Also, remember that ducks and geese have waterproof top feathers! I'd be curious to see what would happen if they had ONLY down. I've spent several miserable nights in wet or damp down bags and it is no fun!

Best, Doug

doug is correct.
i could add only that elevation has a great deal to do with things, as does temperature/humidity, but to a lesser extent.
you can make any mistake (almost) you want at 11,000' and you'll be dry in a jiffy. you do those same stupids at sea level and, if it's foggy, you'll stay wet until you land a commercial drier.
at lower elevations, trip length matters a LOT.

low elevation plus fog, and you can walk farther per day with a syn bag.
(it's just a cry'n shame that they so badly Suck to sleep in)

cheers,
peter v.

Excellent product. Atsko Sport Wash though works just as well, is less expensive, and works well on any natural fiber like merino wool too.

So if the down cannot absorb moisture, is it a safe assumption that there would be less moisture accumulation due to sweat evaporation while sleeping? Would the moisture simply get trapped between the fibers instead of absorbed into them? Or am I getting the concept wrong?

"So if the down cannot absorb moisture, is it a safe assumption that there would be less moisture accumulation due to sweat evaporation while sleeping? Would the moisture simply get trapped between the fibers instead of absorbed into them? Or am I getting the concept wrong?"

Dead wrong. Down will absorb moisture and will stay that way until you add heat and some fluffing.

The issue when sleeping is that warm air rising from your body can hold a lot of moisture. It moves through the down until it hits the colder outer areas and condenses. For an overnighter, you will get by, but go for several days and it gets progressively wetter, clumping, losing its loft and insulating value, and getting heavier.

What do people do when hiking with down? Typically, they will allow it to dry as much as possible in the morning and spread it out in the sun at lunch time. Great idea if the dampness is slight and there is good direct sun.

My experience:

Off I-90, 50 miles from Seattle this last July 4th, it was in the high 40's F at 4500' feet in the early afternoon, with heavy overcast and a big rain squall around 4PM. Humidity was high and the dew point was low. Hiking in the clouds, for real. Wake up on a cold morning and all your gear is covered with dew. Walk out through a brushy trail in the morning and you have to put on rain gear to stay dry: the dew looks like someone sprayed the brush with a hose minutes before you came down the trail.

Typical Western Washington rain isn't thundershowers. It rains lightly but constantly for hours, if not days. It might rain non-stop for a weekend and not accumulate 0.5". Add temps of 45-50F and humidity levels over 90%. Add constant overcast– no direct sun for days. Add hiking steep switchbacks and trails with running and/or standing water, mud, and add a few stream crossings for dessert. There is nowhere for your perspiration to go– you need a squeegee, not a towel. Get to camp, put up your shelter and shake out your bag to loft. Come back in an hour and it is cold and damp. Doing Leave No Trace, aka no fire, and you are living in a cold sauna with a mud floor. And you want to add a $400 sack of goose feathers to that mix? Insanity.

Drop the other side of the Cascades and the rainfall drops to 20" a year. Some of the stuff that misses the Olympics and Cascades makes it to Western Montana, but Get higher up in the Rockies and farther south and you have prime down country, along with the high deserts, and the Sierra. BUT, for anything in the upper left hand corner of the map of North America, down sucks. You can make it work, but synthetic is much safer and easier. And there is at least as much bad synthetic gear as there is down.

And when you mention Feathered Friends being in Seattle, that is not proof of anything. There is a big down market for high altitude climbing, trekking the Himalaya, the Rockies, the Alps, the Arctic and more. And then there is fashion. I've seen someone wearing a North Face Nuptse jacket on a downtown city street in 60F weather!

to add to what dale said … this was typical june weather last year at low (1000m) elevation … usually youd see the inlet and other hills at this point …

this was just a day hike … but i slipped 3 times in those muddy rivers we call trails here … and ended up soaking wet

imagine this every single day … with continuous non stop rain every single day

and here's last feb during the olympics on cypress …. i couldnt see us win the gold in the raind and fog … but i got to sing O Canada !!!