Down in the PNW

I agree with the other Doug's post pretty much whole-heartedly.(Note: my name is also Doug) I to have spent all my life playing and working outside in western Washington, and I have used both down and synthetic clothing and sleeping bags.

There will be trips where it will be practically impossible to dry anything. Careful management will keep anything from ever getting soaked, but everything will be damp. I've gotten by for several years now with a down bag. It's not hard to keep it dry while it's packed but when you put your damp self inside of it when surrounded by a damp world, well, moisture has a way of getting everywhere.

I would say what will work best is largely dependent on how long of a trip you want to take and how much time and energy you are willing to expend trying to make your gear work. If you only take short trips a down bag will pretty much always be viable with proper care. Down clothing will to but with a lot more care.

If your trip is more mission than wander, and you will be struggling to accomplish something much more consuming than merely being there (my background is in search and rescue and alpine climbing) than you will probably find yourself using less and less down gear. You will spend less time and energy caring for your equipment, and you will be able to use your equipment very differently if you use more synthetic gear, especially synthetic clothing.

I will sometimes do a winter approach where I move fast enough to soak a light base-layer shirt with sweat, even though it's all I'm wearing in mid-20's weather. I than layer up to start climbing more technical ground and belaying, accumulate enough warmth in my clothing layers to dry my base layer back out. If you do this with a down coat it will deflate and be of little use for the rest of the trip, but the right synthetic coat will keep doing this cycle all through a multi-day trip.

Synthetic sleeping systems can let you crawl into bed wearing everything, with all of your accumulated moisture for the day, and wake up the next morning with everything dry (in moderate temps that is, if it's really cold you can still have moisture accumulate in your bag). Sometimes this ability of your equipment to help you manage moisture will let you do things that would have been impossible if you had need to manage all of your sweat and layering very carefully. Being able to put on a belay parka over everything, including your shell, will make it usable in situations where extensive layering changes are impossible or inconvenient as well as saving time.

Personally, I use all synthetic clothes and a down bag most of the time, and that works out fairly well in terms of weight, pack space, and usability. I am very interested in the growing realm of lighter synthetic sleep systems though. If I had to do a lot of long backpacking in the Hoh rainforest I think I would travel without any feathers though. The "cold sauna" is really the realm of fleece and synthetic sleeping bags (and big tarps and wood fires, for that matter).

While Dale makes valid points about the rather challenging weather that can be experienced in our fine state, I respectfully disagree with the claim that, “for anything in the upper left hand corner of the map of North America, down sucks.”

Really? Cmon. I have a lot of respect for Dale’s experience, but that was a gross generalization. Sure, in the Hoh Valley where it rains 135 inches a year on average, I’d likely pass on down if I were there for a week in the spring (or even a long trip on the coast). But for a lot of the terrain, I’d take down without hesitation, even on longer trips. It is lighter, far more compressible and works well in most, but not all, circumstances.

I completely agree that if the Olympics and west side of the Cascades are socked in for a week, things can be pretty wet. And that can be a signigficant problem for down bags, as Dale argued. But it isn't always wet, Washington has a lot of different climates as your mentioned, and during backpacking season, the weather can be quite lovely, even in areas prone to more precipitation. So down bags can make sense.

I think that tarps and tarptents are pretty neat, but must admit to being less than impressed by the net result of living out of one after a week of rainy, cold weather. To me, the down problem in wet conditions is often exacerbated by living in a shelter prone to serious condensation.

Dale, and anyone else, how do you deal with the bulk of a synthetic bag? If it were not for the bulk compared to down, I might carry mine more often. When facing tougher conditions for prolonged periods, I generally opt for the double-wall tent and a down bag rather than a single-wall and the synthetic. Double-wall tents generally deal more effectively with condensation than do single wall tents that don't have adequate air flow. My preference probably has everything to do with the fact tht the double wall tent and a down bag seems to be a better fit in my pack than the single wall tent and a synthetic bag. If less bulky synthetics were out there, I would probably give synthetic bags a better shot.

Dale, what is your usual setup when you expect challenging weather?

Dirk

Not heavy, not bulky. That's what I use, combined with Cocoon jacket and pants. I love the stuff.

You are right that we have lovely weather! I think you may be implying that the mist of a multi-day drizzle or a Hoh river downpour is not lovely, but I LOVE this weather. Maybe it's just because I grew up with the stuff. Sure we have many dry, sunny days but high humidity is very common and has to be considered.

Still, lots of people use down here due to exactly the reasons mentions- compressibility and weight. I own 2 synthetic bags and 2 down bags. When using down I blend it with all synthetic clothing and insulation jacket and pants. It works.

In long, deep cold trips to the Arctic and such, the problem is always the moisture from your body accumulating in the down. The solution that many use here is vapor barrier clothing or a vb liner. That's a great solution in those situations. I often use vapor barrier socks when sleeping here in winter.

My setups:

very warm- light Cocoon quilt
normal summer- light Cocoon quilt with Cocoon jacket and pants
colder- heavy Cocoon quilt (or two layered) with jacket and pants
Colder- Valandre Mirage down bag with Cocoon jacket and pants
winter/igloo/snow cave- Feathered Friends 0 bag with Cocoon jacket, pants, and Patagonia synthetic jacket

not "down" playing syn :), as it's certainly a viable choice and frankly sometimes the better choice, BUT saying down isn't a viable option in the PNW is, well…. wrong. The 100's (1,000's?) of folks that have completed the trek through the entire length of Oregon and Washington (and that small state of California!) using down as their sleeping system can't be wrong or were just simply lucky. Length of trip- can't be too much longer of a trip than that. Those folks made a calculated decision on what sleep system would serve them best and used techniques that insured their decision wasn't going to bite them.

I think the strategy of using some syn clothing in conjunction with down is solid. I also think that if you know it's going to be wet, miserable s.o.b. and you have a syn bag in your lineup- then that would be a great time to break it out :)

One apparent assumption in much of this discussion is that moisture vapor from one's body will get trapped/absorbed in the down insulation but won't in the synthetic insulation. Or, that less of it will get trapped/absorbed.

The net effect then being that more of the moisture moves through the bag/garment to the exterior.

Is that assumption accurate? Are there hard data that support this assumption?

What is the % difference in the amount of moisture trapped/absorbed by the down versus what is trapped/absorbed by the synthetic. Yes, I know, that depends on many variables, including the type of synthetic, etc.

It is not as if synthetics don't trap/absorb water. They surely do and can get soaking wet. I have a Patagonia MicroPuff vest that I use alot, but it certainly does trap/absorb moisture from my body. And, when it does it loses loft and insulating value.

So, is this really a two-pronged analysis: First, to compare the amount of moisture trapped/absorbed by down vs. synthetic. And second, which of the insulations then dry quicker?

Cheers,

Bryan

should you have down clothing and synth sleeping bag or vice versa?

I do a lot of winter backpacking in Oregon and Washington – good description Dale

But when you set up your tent it doesn't matter that much, just keep your warm clothes dry in your pack. Lightweight nylon shirt and pants that got wet hiking during the day dry off quickly from body heat regardless of weather.

I use synth sleeping bag and vest, but when it gets down to 20F or so, the amount of synth required to stay warm gets very bulky and heavy. I made a down vest and it's half as heavy and bulky for the same warmth. I've only used it on a few trips so I gues I'll find out how well it works.

Mike said:
"do a little impromptu survey of past PCT thru hikers, I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority used down bags and I'm guessing that most wouldn't change that- practice good technique in keeping it dry (just like you would a syn bag!)"

I thru-hiked the PCT, and I live in WA state. I sort of see both sides of this discussion; I think it's situational. Not to disagree with Mike here, but I'll point out that overall the PCT is quite a dry trail. WA in particular is renowned among PCT hikers as being wet and cold, but naturally it can vary. It was wet my year, and yes, I did use a down bag throughout; my 32F bag was sufficient for WA, didn't bother switching back. Of course thru-hikers aren't continuously hiking, folks get off trail and dry things out, and even sometimes stay off trail a bit and hang out hoping the weather will improve. We WA natives know that this is often a vain hope; as someone else pointed out, you can sometimes be getting quite wet from vegetation long after the last rain in periods where nothing dries out.

But overall I think it really is situational.

In warmer weather I like down because the stakes are lower (less likely to really get hypothermic), and down is lighter and less bulky. Even when it's quite wet I can generally stay warm enough and keep the down dry enough with care until the trip ends or I get some time off somehow to dry stuff out.

In colder weather on short trips I like down for the same reasons, as someone else also pointed out, you're not out for that long, and at least everything is dry starting out, just take care.

I have no experience at extended cold weather trips. I guess the early part of the AT last year was sort of that, but again, I was going into towns periodically where I could dry things.

I think that extended cold weather trips (in high humidity areas) would be just really hard however you go. Maybe the solution then is to use a pulk and accept bulkier and heavier gear to deal with conditions. And of course, hope for future advances in synthetic insulation!

I live in Washington's Cascade foothills – on the we(s)t side. My neighborhood gets around 100" in a busy year. 90% of my backpacking and hiking is on the west side of the state and all of my insulation is down. I think Doug's caveat on trip length is valid, but most of my trips are a week or less and usually only 3-4 days. Being even moderately careful keeps my down warm and fluffy. I think a down bag is a super easy decision unless you're a die-hard tarper, but there aren't many on this side of the state :) I worry more about my jackets, but I'm rarely in a down jacket if it's raining. Just too warm. If it's cold enough for a down jacket, it's too cold for rain. Especially if I'm moving, a merino shirt/windshirt combo is fine or worst case a rainjacket. Down jacket then becomes an in-camp only item where – presumably – I'm sheltered.

In the end it really comes down to your style of backpacking and your tolerance/confidence regarding risk. I will say that I have slept exactly ONE night in a soaking wet bag on the Olympic Coast. It was synthetic, and I froze my butt off and was miserable all night. They're not that great when wet, either. The point is to not get your insulation wet – regardless of what it's made of.

jerry …

it depends on what yr looking for … i use some thinner down and synth clothing and a synth bag, with a synth bag i can just hop right into the sack with a hawt nalgene and itll all be dry the next day … no need to worry about body moisture or condensation

using a down bag and synth clothing does require you to be more careful, rather than sleeping with your synth clothing inside the bag, you place it on top of the bag … hopefully this moves the dew point that could have been in the bag to the synth clothing, and protect against condensation drip … getting the synth clothing a bit damp isnt a big deal since you can jut wear it dry with a hawt nalgene or while moving

each requires slightly different techniques …

I agree with Brian (and Doug before that) it is situational. Our summers are not nearly as wet as people assume. Even in the rain forest, you can get day after day of sunshine. Besides, with the really long days, all you need is a few hours to dry everything out. The longer you go, the more you may want synthetic. It is harder to predict the weather a week ahead of time, and moisture can accumulate. However, I only use a down bag now, and used it for an eight day trip this year. Of course, that was in August in the Cascades, not up the Hoh in November.

I would say that I still prefer synthetic clothing over down. It is nice to not have to worry about my own moisture messing up things. I can push myself to the point of sweating and not worry about it. In fact, I use fleece exclusively for day hiking in the summer (along with a wind shirt). Fleece breathes really well, so I don't paying the extra weight penalty for the convenience and added range of fleece.

I do think the term "warm when wet" is false. A better term might be "warmer if damp". Or maybe "warmer if damp and quicker drying".

I am wondering why one would jepordize the integrity of a down bag by wearing wet clothes in it.I was taught by more experienced hikers than me to never sleep in the clothes I wear to hike is because of the moisture wicking heat from the body issue. I always have a set of dry sleeping clothes that are only worn in my bag and only when I am ready to sleep or be in my tent the rest of the night. Could be a set of capilene or in hot weather boxers and a tank top. My thought are that in wet climates it would be better to pack the extra weight of spare socks and shirt than depend on my down bag as a dryer.

Not necessarily quicker drying–see this article: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wet_weather_performance_down_vs_synth_vests.html

At least in this limited test, the down dried faster! I'd love to see a more comprehensive test!

I've been reading all of these post with great interest. The last week of April will be my first experience in the PNW. Hoh River Trail. This is what I think will work based on what I've been reading from these very helpful post.

Double wall tent (Eureka Spitfire instead of Contrail)
Down bag (not sure if 32 degree or 15 degree) with set of capilene to be worn only for sleeping. All packed in waterproof bag inside of waterproof pack liner.

Clothing insulation : Teramar wool/silk base layer, synthetic t shirt , quick dry pants, 200 polartec vest, Thermawrap jacket , packlite gor tex rain shell and gortex pants, dry socks for each day on the trail.

We will be on the trail most likely 4 days. I have hiked the Smokies ( they are also a rainforest) and live in the deep south so I understand wet and humidity.

It seems the opinions are split on down vs syn and if I need to I can buy a syn but I'd rather use what I have.

Mary, way to post some actual data!

I think this whole thread ties in nicely with the front page article right now about the "Vortex of Fear".

Yes, there are some cases where your insulation are going to get a bit damp and possibly be somewhat compromised. I suggest you get some skills to enable you to use your sleeping bag without getting it excessively wet. If you're getting any moisture on your bag other than whatever you sweat/condense in the night, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Camp under trees to minimize condensation. Don't lock your shelter down so tight you don't get any air movement.

So here's my anecdotal evidence: Down rules. I hiked the West Coast Trail twice this year, spring and fall, barely saw the sun at all on either trip (probably 1 hour in total). The foot of my down bag was a little damp at one point, but it still got the job done. I got to save a bunch of weight/space and snuggle into my awesome puffy bag at the end of every day. My friends with stringy synth bags cried all night because their huge lumpy bags suffocated them and didn't keep them warm. They may also attract mice and GRIZZLY BEARS.

NB: your experience may differ from mine. I'm just saying, like so much other lightweight gear, down requires you to have skills to make up for its deficiencies. It is not magic.

OK, I see the actual topic was exclusively about down OUTERWEAR. In that case, I tend to agree – I don't really wear any insulated outerwear except in my tent. Seems obvious that you wouldn't want to wear down or synthetic insulation in the pouring rain? If it's hovering around zero just keep hiking until it stops raining or you camp. Once you're camped, get in the tent and don't get out :)

@Rhonda: I think you'll be fine. A double walled tent makes things much easier. With the Capilene, I would probably go with the 32 degree bag. Then again, the weight difference is probably fairly small between the bags, so maybe the bigger bag is better. Maybe it depends on the pad you use (a warmer pad can be the difference). Regardless, I certainly wouldn't buy anything else. Even if you use the lighter bag, at worse you will be a little chilly the last night. If it was a really long trip, then I would go with the bigger bag. Of course, the weather can vary quite a bit that time of year so maybe the best thing is to check the forecast before going and then pick a bag. Four day forecasts are usually pretty reliable (8 day forecasts are a whole different story).

This is best source that I know of for weather prediction in the area: http://www.atmos.washington.edu/data/zone_report.KSEW.html and http://www.atmos.washington.edu/data/disc_report.html
The first is a standard report (which plenty of other people will repeat). The second is the discussion of the report. Basically, the meteorologists look at a bunch of computer models and then make their official prediction. By reading the discussion, you get a good idea of the confidence. Often times, they feel like changing their mind, but don't want to do it yet, because they think they might have to change their mind again. Anyway, knowing their confidence level can make a big difference.

Regarding single wall tents in the PNW:

I live in Washington and spend 90% of my backpacking here. I spend about 75% of those nights in single wall tents (Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic, Tarptent Sublite Tyvek, Tarptent RAinshadow 2, Golite Shangri La 5) and it works just fine. You have to keep condensation in mind and exercise caution but I've had great luck. Even using a Tarptent in a downpour on the Olympic coast has been fine.

Sure, a double wall tent is a bit easier in the condensation realm, but I've had no issues big enough that would make me switch to double wall.

It's probably similar to the down conversation. Anything works here- it's just how you use it and what you're comfortable with. Personally, I mitigate condensation concerns by using synthetic insulation with my single wall tents. If I brush against the side of the tent, it doesn't matter as much. Works for me but there are certainly lots of ways to deal with it.

That said, I once owned a Black Diamond single wall with Epic fabric. I found that to be a very poor performer in constant sprinkles with no relief. I've not found this to be the same with eVent, silnylon, cuben, spinnaker, Tyvek, or Gore Tex single walls. I used to be the shelter editor here at BPL so I got to try many, many shelters in our worst conditions and while I loved the Epic for southwestern thunderstorms, I parted ways with the tent quickly after living with it on the coast for a week.

That said, a double wall tent with a mesh inner and no vents can be worse than a well vented single wall tent, as the rain drips through the mesh onto your bag…

Cheers,
Doug

I notice you mention an eVent tent. What tent would that be rather than a bivy? How would you rate current breathable single wall "tents" against something like the Sierra Designs Divine Lightning , an early goretex model?

Doug – thanks for posting some pics of your sleeping bags and description of your setup. Much appreciated. I find this a really interesting thread – I am glad there is a distinction made between the climate of the PNW and say of California.

On the double wall with the mesh inner (e.g. The Hubba) – I have had better success with this in rain than I've had with say, a single wall tarpent. Yeah, you get a few drips, but the sag factor of silnylon has probably been the bigger issue for me personally and the fact I end up moving around so much at night. I am eager to try some other tent materials that don't sag as much when wet. I do restake before conking out, but generally by morning the once taut tent looks a bit sad….

Ross, thanks for that link, very helpul. I enjoy your posts very much, always quite informative.

Finally, I am glad to see so many passionate backpackers from the PNW. Happy Trails to you all, I hope we get to meet on the trail sometime soon.

Dirk

[RAB HAS 2 Event “shelters” tall enough that you can sit up inside]:
[TENT 1]: Summit Mountain Bivi: Single skin, 2 person mountaineering shelter with increased headroom
Weight:2000g/71oz (+1000g/35oz with optional porch)
• Highly breathable Exchange Lite™ fabric [Event]
• 10000mm laminated nylon waterproof bathtub base
• Internally pitched DAC 8.84mm Aluminium poles
• 2 sealed ‘donut link’ tie in point, located at top and side
• 4 internal pockets
• Mosquito net door
• Glow in the dark zip pullers
• Available with removable porch adding 140cm length for gear storage
size: 2220 x 1200mm base, 1000mm height
[TENT 2]:
Summit Superlite BiviSingle skin, 2 person lightweight, low profile mountaineering shelter Weight:1500g/53oz
• Highly breathable Exchange Lite™ eVent® fabric
• 10000mm laminated lightweight ripstop nylon waterproof bathtub base
• Internally pitched DAC 8.84mm Aluminium poles
• 1 sealed ‘donut link’ tie in point, located at top
• Rear snow collection drawcord porthole
• 1 internal pocket
• Glow in the dark zip pullers
• Aluminium pegs
size: 2220 x 1200mm base, 700mm height

I agree – silnylon – in the morning it's all droopy

I think maybe it droops as it gets cold also

Polyester or Cuben would be better

Stretchy guy lines help

I couldn't add much more except that I don't even own a synthetic bag or puffy and I almost exclusively hike in the Olympics. Summer is pretty dry and transitional seasons I'm not out for more than a weekend anyway so I've never even considered buying synthetic. Down works great and it isn't that hard to keep it dry.

If I were to heavy duty mountaineering or plan extended trips for weeks where I knew it was going to be wet and cold…. I'd consider buying a synthetic bag for that trip.

Thanks to ROBERT TANGEN for the heads up on the Rab eVent "bivys" . This article discusses them and has good photos and specs and a fair review of the legal issues involved with them. Without the vestibule they look risky in terms of the doors letting moisture in. And the cost is nothing to sneeze at. The Sierra Designs Divine Light I have has a nicer entrance better suited to cooking , but it's fabric isn't as good as the eVent. http://www.anatolyivanov.com/prose/en/AI.7.00143/

Having spent weeks in the rain with down; having spent said weeks in a single wall tent, I have many experiences.

There is rain, and then there is RAIN. Others have gone over and over keeping your pack dry and said clothes in said pack dry. Ditto on what they said.

Regarding Down, you NEVER actually wear down while walking/hiking as its WAY too hot unless you are WAY up somewhere high where its 0 or below, and even then… Your options are either move fast and strip down to keep cool, or move slow and DON't Sweat.

So, Down as a camping option, and keeping warm at belay. Is what we are really talking about. On belay, its simple, either you are running off the mountain because its raining which is damned dangerous as the rocks will be flying or its no raining and you are just throwing on said down jacket to stay warm. Generally while sitting at belay you won't be steaming your down coat. If you do open it up, and use jacket as a "bellows" to pump said water vapor out. If you plan on doing this in the snow, make sure its outter shell fabric is "waterproof" or breathable. Don't care which. One side breathable is fine by me. Turn it inside out to "dry".

Ok, Camping with down during extended RAIN. If its warm rain, we don't have a problem as drying out your clothes from sweat inside said sleeping bag is fairly straight forward as you won't have been wearing hardly any to start with. NOW, DON't GET TOO WARM as you will then SWEAT ADDING water to said sleeping bag.

Hiking in Cold rain, well to start with, hike fast, keeps you warm, wear not much, otherwise hike slow, don't sweat, because drying out is difficult. As others have said, if you are warm, YOU ARE WEARING TOO MUCH! At these high humidity cold temperature conditions, drying anything is difficult.

The worst I ever had with down was we had to pitch our squal2 on a 30% slope in the pickets in high humidity cold conditions and huddled for 2 days while it Poured, sleeted, snowed on us. Because of the awkward position of said tent our bags would slide down and we would contact the sides of the single wall tent. This got the toes of our bags wet, but otherwise wasn't too bad. One night on a regular flat spot after 2 nights of horrid conditions and they were dried out again by our body heat.

Likewise I have been in Coastal British Columbia in a modified Tarptent Cloudburst 2 for a week straight of solid rain. Our down bags remained perfectly warm and puffy. If you are too warm, open the bag if you are waiting out the rain.

If we are talking snow conditions, Down is fine as well. Get in sleeping bag with wet clothes, take wet clothes from sweat off put dry on. Put Vapor Barrier clothes on if they aren't already. BIG DEAL. Then warm said bag up, place wet clothes on top of your chest/around your chest and by morning they will be dry. Now, if your sleeping system is a "barely" this won't really work as well at temperatures close to freezing.

Temperatures close to freezing are the worse as the humidity can be extremely high. Low temps are far easier to deal with than near freezing and high humidity.

Been in a double wall tent once in a rainstorm, but only because someone else brought it along.

If you plan on wearing clothes while it rains, or sweating while hiking/climbing can't say enough about fleece/polyester and vapor barrier socks/gloves liners and even VB shirt/pants. VB you can overheat in so be careful. Fleece/polyester hold their loft while soaked because they don't absorb water like a natural fiber. Likewise they are not as warm as a natural fiber when they are dry though some of the new fibers are darned close!

Everything is Fleece/Polyester except my sleeping bag and Belay jacket. I see no reason to change this. Only reason I see for anyone to buy something like a Synthetic fiber BBag or Belay Jacket is because of cost.

For bombing around on the weekend? Can't beat the cost of synthetic sleeping bags. They are practically free. Heavy, but near free. As a kid, I took a big ol' tarp, twine, and a synthetic sleeping bag in a black garbage sack. I still carry a tarp quite often as its far more enjoyable to use in winter as it gives more area to spread out in during bad weather. Bring groundsheet as well along with a snowshovel for a snowcave.

PS. Diane, don't who "taught" your course, but they are utterly clueless. Probably pulling a giant CYA mentality that is so prevalent in today's lawyer environment as synthetic will dry out "slightly" faster than down. Claiming they are warmier when wet is Bull Pucky. Only thing warmer when wet is WOOL. CYA… Just like every damned hammer comes with a warning sticker on that claims, that you need to wear eye protection to nail a nail… Sure… Said instructors all have down bags I betcha as well.

"Likewise I have been in Coastal British Columbia in a modified Tarptent Cloudburst 2 for a week straight of solid rain. Our down bags remained perfectly warm and puffy. If you are too warm, open the bag if you are waiting out the rain. "

Mine didn't. No rain leaked in, but the sheer humidity associated with a week of rain will collapse any down sleep 'system' unless you are able to have some sort of reprieve in the weather to dry the items out.