New Kifaru Pack – less then 3lbs, 5200 ci, will carry 100+ lbs!

Roger I hear you on library access, I no longer have access either, and I'm not paying on a per standard basis.

Hear is a good link on Tongue tear testing http://www.uni.edu/tapp/pdf%20files/Tongue%20Tear%20Method.pdf

Trapezoid: http://www.instron.us/wa/solutions/astmd5587-tear-test-fabric-trapezoid-method.aspx?ref=http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Aj0v2FRDrudaAluNbIvUSu.bvZx4

Here is a tester for pucture/propagation testing: http://www.qualitest-inc.com/elmendorf.htm Appears at to be a fairly simple machine, "appears" ;-)

I believe near duplication of ASTM standards is possible, but not neccassary. If 12 different Sils are tested, several 70Ds, cubens, WPBs, Down proofs, etc. A comparative scale will emerge, and with manufacturer test reports for 2-3 or more of the fabrics being tested, the results become scaleable to what ever standard, ie. Brinnel vs Rockwell. Testing need only be consistent across all samples.

Can't wait to see the testing…

Qualifications up front: I've known Patrick Smith for years. I like some Kifaru gear and use some, but don't believe anything is the end all be all. I'm one of those hunting/backpacking folks who spends a lot more time reading here than posting.

So if I've followed this right, the two guys who have actually used this pack, LOVE it. One of those guys is Ed Tyanich who has just a bit of experience in the outdoors and has tried a couple of different packs in his time. I've heard that he does get more than a mile or two from the trailhead as well and might be able to beat you there and back if you push him. Aron reviews packs but more on the hunting than the UL side. Let's just say he has some perspective even if it's different than the typical BPL person.

On the other side of the argument, we have a bunch of people who haven't held, much less tried the pack. The loudest being a competitor to Kifaru.

I'm always amazed by the armchair quarterbacks who can fully evaluate something without ever seeing it. I haven't seen one myself but I do know that it has been tested in various iterations in the field for years. There seems to be some sort of hang up on the 150 lbs. thing. Kifaru doesn't advertise it as a 150 lbs. pack. A tester successfully used it for that weight. Get over it. The point is they made a lightweight pack for heavyweight loads. Personally, I'd have to use one to form a firm opinion, but the fact that Ed T sold off his Kifaru G2 pack for his heavy hauling speaks volumes to me on the capabilities of the new Kifaru UL packs.

Is it the answer to your question? Maybe, maybe not.

I completely agree with what Chris is saying here and said much the same thing a day or two ago; anyone can rant away about various aspects of the materials used in an item of gear he has never used or even seen, however, the real test comes from using that item in the field under all conditions and for an extended period.

I am very pleased to see Aron posting here and hope he will continue to do so as I enjoy reading about actual mountain experiences and how the gear used really performed. I have far less interest in the carping from those who have never done what the packs under consideration here are intended for and appear to have an agenda where Kifaru is concerned.

I have great respect for Dan McHale and value any opinion on packs which he offers and Ed Tyanich and Aron have, IMO, provided a valuable service on this thread to anyone who may want/need a very light pack for hunting or many other uses.

I learned a lot here and am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

Chris, you hit the nail on the head.

Sorry, I know some want this to end.

This has nothing to do with the fine folks that keep getting brought up. Last I checked this forum is titled GEAR.

"GEAR talk. Everything GEAR. All about GEAR. Ultralight backpacking gear. Lightweight backpacking gear. Hiking gear. Anything GEAR. Gear that sucks, gear that works, gear that's cheap, gear that's cool, gear that's overrated by lying manufacturers, gear that's only available from a side street Spanish market, gear that breaks, gear that's multi-use, gear that can be Googled, GEAR GEAR GEAR GEAR GEAR. Now go. Talk 'some gear"

But….since it was brought up. Yes, Aron and ED are obviously qualified, they are also featured on the manufactures website with regard to the pack, while also being active on several forums for the same reasons. No one else, well at least not for 3 months, can vouch. So in the mean time, yes its just claims, beliefs and skepticism. Why is it when skepticism and objectivity are brought to bare on certain subjects, in a place titled GEAR, it automatically becomes a discussion about people? :-0

I also wanted to repeat, reader digest style, what I've said before. Its Silnylon, I challenge the strength claim, I have the educated opinion that wood stays could be an issue wrt pack rafting and other situations, This pack will last a life time for some people. The marketing is hyped like good hip hop. I think that sums it up.

"Why is it when skepticism and objectivity are brought to bare on certain subjects, in a place titled GEAR, it automatically becomes a discussion about people?"

Because it's people that use the gear!

It doesn't use itself and the proof is in the pudding – i.e. how it works for people.

Agreed and the comments were not so much about people, per se, as they were about the behaviour of some here, whose objectivity is rather questionable, in light of their own activities on other forums…some of us have long and accurate memories, 'nuff said.

Josh,

Oh, but the people part does matter. Most gear is pretty great on the drawing board or sitting on the shelf or even pictured as a prototype on a website. As Vernon says, it's when it gets used by people that you find out whether it's any good or not. More importantly, it really depends on the people reviewing it as to whether their review is of value. Your "impartial" review of something you haven't even held, much less used saying it's over hyped BS seems of less value than those of Ed T or Aron who have not only put the thing through some pretty tough paces but have extensive experience with many other top flight packs. I'm not in the market for one of these myself, so it doesn't much matter to me personally whether they work or not, but I can definitely see why some would really want one. I can see why you wouldn't want someone to though.

And since you requested focus on GEAR, the other irony I'm seeing here is the durability issue. This is Backpacking Light, correct? Based on most of my reading here, the mantra is that it's okay to sacrifice durability in order to lose weight. As long as folks know what they're doing and take care of their stuff, weight savings is the ultimate goal. You make it sound like the thing is made out of tissue paper and not up to UL durability standards. However, I guess the ultimate in durability from a manufacturer's standpoint is to have no bag whatsoever to rip or tear. I just hope no one uses (shudder) sil-nylon stuff sacks to hold their gear on your pack board.

nm. I don't know enough about all the history behind this squabble.

Chris

I'm not endorsing, err….uh reviewing the pack. I am being critical of it. I can make value based opinionated critiques of any number of peices of gear based on experience and other known factors. Doesnt mean my critique is any more or less valuable than anothers endorsment. And yes the proof is in the pudding, and duration is always one of the most critical factors in testing anything :-) I stand by what I've said, especially when it comes to the claims about the silnylon's strength.

Kute

Nice to see you again too. Your implications only prove my point.

You make it sound like the thing is made out of tissue paper and not up to UL durability standards.

No, he questions whether or not it will live up to the expectations set forth by the implications of the aforementioned "hype", and he's not the only one.

It undoubtedly lives up to the durability of any other Silnylon based UL pack, but then again, we don't try to cram large dead animals into those packs or tout them as being capable of carrying 100+lbs with ease.

Josh, I am not sure what …implications… I have made here, as you can see, your questionable comments here have drawn comments from several people and all of us seem to find your remarks both specious and biased.

If, you would prefer me to be more direct in my comments concerning your behaviour on the backpacking section of 24Hr.Campfire and even on Patrick Smith's own forum, Kifaru.net, I certainly can and will be and I vividly recall what took place there.

Given the season, I am inclined to leave it with, as I posted, …nuff said…, but, will add one seemingly minor point; I used to own and manage my own specialty business and would simply say that your type of commentary here does your business little good or you any credit.

Most of us who buy and use highend gear tend to respect each other and exchange thoughts on what really works and what is mere hype…AFTER, we use the items in question. So, I, for one, am far less likely to buy a TiGoat stove, for example, when I encounter the behaviour you exhibit here…just a thought to consider.

I'm done with this, it is Christmas and not the time to brawl on the internet like a bunch of tavern louts. Merry Christmas to all.

I'm glad people are addressing UL load haulers, as I've thought about this for awhile myself and have contemplated doing it as a project. There is need, and I would much rather have one pack I could grab for 80 – 90 % of what I do instead of continually switching gear around form pack to pack.

Outside of hunting, there is need for UL load in rescue work as well. I do some volunteer rescue stuff and carrying medical FR, ropes , climbing stuff adds up. There is also a need for it in the case of being a sort of sherpa (which I play more than I would want). I ended up on the way out of hunting not only carrying my stuff, but carrying some one else's pack as well, sometimes attached to my pack and sometimes on the front. It was a good load, probably almost as much as the bear I packed out a couple weeks later.

Myself, I've been on the fence about Silnylon in packs. I like the weight and the water resistance, but I'm not sure if I'd want to go through the oak brush or thick timber with a 30d nylon based pack. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

I'm interested to see how these lightweight load haulers pan out.
Kevin

Kute

I dont need to have a good memory, I have most of it archived. To make it easier for folks to see what you are referring to, you should have mentioned that my handle on Kifaru was Coruja, you will need to search the archives for the user name "me", to find anything though. On The Camp Fire, it would also be Coruja. I stand by what I've done and said in both those places, and in the tangible non-digital realm also.

You sounded out my point perfectly in that post, Thanks.

Pointing out that I'm a lunatic, is like pointing out the low tear strength of silnylon. Only certain people will argue with that, it becomes technical, but well understood at that point.

I'm not sure if it is enough said, how bout you?

Did you catch that? I know it's not fair to edit but I think I'm nosing into something I don't belong in, like a bear getting into a garbage can! I look forward to seeing how all this shakes out in the real world.

Sorry Kevin, I don't mean to throw you off like that. I added a post below. Yeah, old externals are fun. I picked up an old Kelty BB5 in my size while down in Bishop. It's even got the original Kelty rain cover. I plan to fix it up in spare time I don't have.

Hi Dan

Need / Want is different. We don't need much, I've carried stuff like Santa before down the trail or huge mushroom like a baby before. I bounce all over the place weight wise, I love my Nathan pack for minimal / fast stuff perhaps up to 15 – 20 miles in the right conditions. The pack weighs 6 ounces. However, for hunting, I take a load hauler. For winter stuff, I need more volume though not the load.

I spend a lot of time switching gear between packs, which I don't like doing, but the reality is I don't want to take a heavy 60 liter when I am not carrying much. For now, my best and favorite pack is an old jansport with a small external frame. It fits well, gets pretty small, and can carry a good load. It's lighter than my other big packs. I don't even know the model of it, but it was a thrift store item and works better for the majority of uses. I guess I look a bit looney with my pack choice, amongst a sea of Osprey , Black Diamond and so on.

Cheers

Kevin

Dan, Absurdity? yes. I just shaved 3g out of a piece of gear though, so maybe not what your thinking.

still waiting for someone to post up pics of a bear in their pack … its all fun and games until someone stuffs a bear

That's why I have a 70 liter, 4lb 8oz McHale Chasm for loads up to 50lbs (7-10 day trips) and a 40 liter, 2lb 8oz McHale Merkebeiner, for loads up to 30lbs (2-5 day trips)

I'm not going to make any comments about the review that begins the thread but I know what you mean Josh about over the top claims. That what's so different these days, as opposed to the old days, when the magazines could say whatever they wanted and there was no rebutal possible or certainly not enough. Although magazines still do reviews, they are far less significant. How times have changed! 3 grams? Congratulations! :>) Hey there Mike!

Kevin,

Maybe it's neither want or need I was trying to get at. Maybe I was trying to get at the peer pressure at the root of some of it.

Good post, CCH. I have also known Mr. Smith and the Kifaru company for a long time, and have found them to be a company of integrity. I've also done an enormous amount of backcountry rambling with him, and a lot of it has been when he's used the UL pack prototypes. We've done just about everything with that pack, and it's holding up nicely. I would caution, as CCH has, about jumping off the deep end until you've seen and used the pack, or read what others have for opinions after they've done the same. I've seen and used the packs. A lot. I have a KU3700 prototype that I will continue to drag through the oak brush and thick timber, haul boned out mule deer, and use as my go-to pack from now on. My Longhunter and Late Season packs are pretty much "retired". And I'll be very happy to post results here. I do NOT plan to carry 100# in my pack, but it sure is nice to know it can be done. I don't even plan to carry half that weight unless it's meat, but I WILL make an exception in that case ;) . So, you can add a fourth to the list of people who have used the packs extensively and "endorse" them, whatever that means.

Paul,

Are those deer horns from recent kills stacked in your tent?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I assume it is kindling but it just seemed funnier to pretend they were antlers stacked up by an overzealous hunter.

Ha, ha! No, but that certainly WOULD be an excellent photo, wouldn't it! My antler collection is here at home on my walls, and I also have a pile of "lesser" ones (mostly sheds) out in front of the house. The wood you see in the photo is for the wood stove in the shelter. We managed to pile well over four day's worth of wood in there and still had room for two hunters and gear.

All of this excitement reminds me of the Voyager flight back in 1986. Who would ever think a carbon fiber plane weighing 2,200 lbs and carrying 2 people and 7,000 pounds of fuel could fly nonstop ( no touchdowns and no mid-air refueling ) around the world? Flight speed was low; 121 mph, so in that there would be a similarity also to carrying a 150 lb load in the carbon fiber pack! :>) The Voyager book is a great read by the way.

It snowed bad! http://www.whitneyzone.com/webcam/will/willi.jpg