4 Season Ultra Light Extreme Weather Shelter System

“insulated tents – so many square metres of insulation would be needed.” 

The MLD solomid is a fairly small and space efficient tent. The cuben version I have weighs 12.5 oz or so. 6mm 1.2lb density foam plus 1.07 oz/yd2 fabric and mylar space blankets would push the weight to around the 4lb range.  Not egregious to me–the bulk would be more of an issue, but not a huge deal if you’re using a small pulk.

“My gut feeling is that you could wrap that material around yourself several times for far better results. It’s an area thing.” 

Of course that’s true, but on a long cold evening and night when it’s -5* F or so, wouldn’t it be nice to light a couple candles, take off your bulky down jacket and mittens and just lounge without being freezing cold? Cause I’ve been out in those temps, and while I have a pretty good cold tolerance, I have to keep my at least my liner gloves on most of the time unless I’m cooking or in the quilt.

Yes, it’s more a kind of luxury thing, but since I most enjoy and most often winter backpack, the weight and volume is an acceptable trade off, especially if I can take it off when not needed or wanted. That’s the true beauty of such a system is the adaptability.  And with cuben and membrane silpolyPU4000, I can use a lot of tape or glue to bond, and only do light sewing to reinforce at crucial areas (yes, I know, do not sew directly on tape or glue–I would do so right next to same).

wouldn’t it be nice to light a couple candles, take off your bulky down jacket and mittens and just lounge without being freezing cold?
I can see what you are saying all right. However, after dinner it is usually thoroughly dark and we are tired. Yeah, we start early and stop late. So instead we dive into our quilts, snuggle up, and go to sleep. I don’t think we have ever had the energy to ‘lounge around’. Different folks, different strokes.

Cheers

OK then Justin is weight and space are no problem then go for something like a Eureka Timberline, with an extra set of poles because of the extra weight perhaps? The tents I have insulated have all been dinosaurs and cotton wall tents with extra large synthetic fly sheets. I sewed rings into the corners and along the seams . I had some UL polyester fleece and some leftover Thinsulate from a double sleeping bag project that didn’t work out, some perforated aluminised building foil. RFL means Reflective Foil Laminate Like a  Space blanket

I sandwiched the Thinsulate between the fleece and the RFL and sewed plastic hooks in places to match the rings and then just hung the “blanket” from the rings. I did something similar for the ends but just with scraps and old woollen blankets

It worked, it actually worked very well and if it had been a hot tent then very little fuel would have been needed but the space the insulation needed to work well turned a 4 man tent  [ 10 * 8 feet] into a 2 man tent, loosing about 100mm in height and 150 to 200mm in width. It would have been less if I had used small rings and hooks but I was worried about them handling the blanket weight if I used small glove hooks so I used big duffle bag snaps and rings. The big bonus was the light a single UCO candle lantern was enough to do almost everything except read

Base camp for a winter skiing trip, took 3 days hauling stuff in I had so much stuff but I was there for 70+ days so worth it, I should note here that the tent was destroyed by the end of the time, a complete write-off. A tent that big needed a frame somewhat stronger than 32mm architectural aluminium tubing, 2018 I’m using 55mm Awing tube

Now do this with APEX and UL fabrics in a Timberline 4 and you have a winter palace for 1;  for 2 people I’d be using a Timberline 6

I’m pretty sold on the olympus …unless someone could recommend to me something lighter, but just as solid (that doesnt have some kind of flaw)
But…
Lightwave in the UK is really, really peaking my interests….

Hyper series Tunnel Tents 2 and 3 person
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/hyper-tents?product=product2
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/hyper-tents?product=product4

Geodesic and Tunnel hybrids:
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/ultra-tents?product=product3
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/trek-geodesics?product=product2

“The i-tent is little more than a pop-up. Oh, big on marketing, but it is still a pop-up.”

Awe c’mon Roger. While I know you have a bias (a highly educated one) toward tunnels, you should at least give the I-tent a little more respect than that? :)

It is a 40 year old design now, is highly imitated, and numerous Bibler tents (especially the “floppy” Eldorado) still somehow manage to end up toward the top of reviewers lists time and time again.

The reason why I”d humbly disagree with the term “floppy” is due to two significant reasons:

1) The interior pole assembly essentially creates a structural  “endoskeleton”. Sure the poles require a certain length to give it its dimentions, the interior poles allow the whole system to work together, to uniformly distribute forces from any direction. Any similar “pop up” tent with the poles inserted from the outside (clip or sleeve) will be dealing with a lot more deflection from the start, since the poles will have room to shift from side to side.
2) The Toddtex fabric itself is significantly more dense than silnylon. While this makes packing it up a little harder, Toddtex does not change in elasticity when it’s wet, and it’s density causes it to shed wind with “less” deformation than silnylon (imho). While I completely understand that it’s essential to have a certain amount of deformation in a tent, there are limitations that any tent (and its inhabitants) should tolerate. Because of this, Bibler’s are very quiet, even in 100km winds.

And admidtally, I’m biased. I got my Eldorado back in mid/late 90’s, and I had both used & sold them (plus hundreds of other tent designs) for the ten years up to that point. The setup of a Bibler is tough, and it takes getting used to. But Bibler’s are one of a select handful of tent designs which are  considered “drum tight” before any stake is placed in the ground.

Matt

I’m pretty sold on the olympus …unless someone could recommend to me something lighter, but just as solid (that doesnt have some kind of flaw)
But…
Lightwave in the UK is really, really peaking my interests….

Hyper series Tunnel Tents 2 and 3 person
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/hyper-tents?product=product2
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/hyper-tents?product=product4

Geodesic and Tunnel hybrids:
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/ultra-tents?product=product3
https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/trek-geodesics?product=product2

Quoting myself …because I’m on the verge of making a decision finally …The hyper series tunnels have very low ends towards the rear…which eliminates usable space and produces condensation …so I kind of already know what roger will say there….

BUT! Check out the Geodesic/Tunnel Hybrids …they seem to have a lot more room towards the back, and supposedly this design is the best of both worlds, (can handle some snow loading due to the geodesic construction, and can handle tough winds due to it’s (partially) tunnel design…

Am I falling for more marketing hype? lol Cause I am really liking these Lightwave G20 designs

Infact I think a lot of their tents have potential (you guys should give their site a look imho)

“I don’t think we have ever had the energy to ‘lounge around’. Different folks, different strokes.”

Definitely know the feeling, had many days/nights on the CT last summer where we experienced this because we’d try to get up fairly early, and hiked a good amount, became exhausted, and often after dinner, would pass out.

But neither month long, nor summer trips are my norm–weekend ones in the late fall, winter, and early, early spring are. Short days combined with me being a night owl and not a morning person, and at least a 2 hr drive, usually leads to a late start and early end, which leaves me with plenty of energy and to paraphrase Mitch Hedberg–a lot of free time. For me, it’s just about being out in nature, with some relative solitude, the most, and less about ego things like, “man, I hiked 40 miles today, yeah, I’m an awesome beast!” that it seems younger males are most prone to.

Thank you for the trip down your memory lane Edward. Did you find that frost would build up in the fleece and Thinsulate?

If I wasn’t using a pulk, and bulk was an issue, then I might go with Apex if frost buildup wasn’t an issue, but CCF has like twice the insulation value per given thickness, and more over, wind won’t have has much of an effect as with Apex, because the latter could compress and lose insulation capacity in stronger wind potentially. And it’s really easy to knock frost off of CCF vs out of Apex.
A 1/4 or so of space on each side of the spaceblanket should give it enough space to reflect IR fairly efficiently (it will add a little more insulation to the whole system too).

I’ll lose a little living space, but as the extra fabric/foam/space blanket combo will be velcroed on to the Cuben body, probably no more than an inch using 1/4″ foam or two layers of 1/8th. Being a bit shorter than average, I can lose some room in the Solomid and be ok and not horribly cramped.

Since I’m sort of off topic, I’ll stop here.  I know very little about tunnel tents directly and experience wise and can’t add anything meaningful to discussion in that area.

“Am I falling for more marketing hype?”

Join the club, my friend!

On a more serious note, I’d probably hold off on pulling the trigger on the Lightwave tents, and see if there are any solid reviews out there from respectable sources.

Regarding the “geo-hybrid” design, what are the attributes of the G20 that you like in particular?

(Fwiw, that three pole design has been around a looong while, starting with the North Face VE-23 & Bullfrog designs in the mid/late 70’s).

The Geodesic/Tunnel hybrids seem to eliminate the problems tunnels can have with snow loading …while still maintaining the tunnel design which is suited for wind/storm resistance…it APPEARS to have been made to accommodate the weaknesses of both designs by combining their strengths, and still being fairly light weight

Unless I’m not interpreting the photos correctly, the hybrids also seem to have raised up those super cramped low ends you can see compared to their pure tunnel designs.

So it appears, that I have found a fairly light tent, that can withstand (fairly)high winds, wont collapse under snow loading as easily, rated for 4 seasons, and doesnt have a super cramped low end towards the rear…

Anyone care to shatter my dreams for me before I buy? :D

Yeah I keep hearing about northface tents that are no longer made, unfortunately tnf had several designs Id like to look into now, but they no longer make them. I’ve seen everything TNF currently makes and I’m not interested for various reasons. So it looks like TNF is probably not gonna be the company I will be able to go with for the time being, since I’m not really interested in buying any previously owned tents of their discontinued models that may or may not be floating around ebay, and other used gear sites…

in depth video overview here:

Notice any glaring flaws that my less knowledgeable eyes are missing?

Mountain Hardwear Trango…

trango’s are great but too heavy for my liking. I’m not saying I havent been considering it, cause I have. I might buy the trango or Olympus no matter what, to use when weight isnt an issue…

as for trips where I care about weight ….I’m considering a few options including the lightwaves I showed you guys earlier
anyone have anything to say about those lightwave tents I posted?

There’s a big contingent of Hilleberg fans as well… a little surprised none of them have weighed in yet!

BPL has a gigantic thread for all things Hilleberg.    ;^o

I might grab a hilleberg jannu too, IDK…probably dont need that many tents hahah….

So…THE LIGHTWAVES, how do they look? Can anyone find reviews? Seems like reviews are sorta hard to find…there aren’t that many I can find.

The Hybrids pitch inner first.  which would disqualify them for me immediately.

Check UK forum activity, such as this.

Ohhhh…darn they are inner first…damn, didnt notice that…damn, I kind agree with you now, multipitch is what Im going to need

Yes, I AM biased – but I have owned, made and slept in many tents.

The Bibler brand – this is part of something we see all the time. One or two guys start a company with some pretty good hard-line products. They sell. Then they get bigger, while still keeping their focus. The brand becomes respected for its quality. Then, sadly, they get bought out by a marketing company, or they die, or whatever. After that the focus is on exploiting the original reputation for profit margin and market share, not on the original concepts. There are so many big companies which have been down this path, with the same sad results. Bottom line: you can’t rely on the rep from 40 years ago: it’s not the same company any more. I’ll avoid potential legal problems by not giving names.

The i-tent – it has three major design defects:
* The long poles are weak and bendy
* The fabric span at the sides is huge and floppy
* The door opens over the groundsheet, any rain gets your gear wet.
You simply cannot get away from these problems.

Now, if you are only dealing with wind from one direction – the long axis, and no rain, it’s not so bad: you can have internal guys to strengthen the poles. But if the wind shifts – which happens so often in the mountains, then you have a problem. If the weather warms a bit and you get heavy rain … problems.

Inner-first pitch – a pure marketing scam imho. It’s a cheap design sold to novices. Definitely fine weather only.

The big money in the American scene is for 3-season walkers under mild conditions. So that is where every large USA company focuses: the big score, not the little niches. And of course the Walmart sales are huge. For the rest of the world, where they don’t have those conditions, gear has to be a bit different. The idea of using a light 8’x6′ silnylon tarp almost anywhere else in the world would be … amusing. But this does NOT mean that the SUL tarp is a silly idea in the Sierra summers: it can be entirely suited to those conditions. Go for it then.

But winter time, in the mountains, possibly above the tree line, often in the snow – a very different story. As others have noted in this thread, safety and survival then become the highest priority, not being SUL. Body bags give us bad PR, which gives us other problems.

The geo/tunnel designs – yeah, they have been around for a long time too. They are far more robust (5 or 6 poles) – but also heavier. Good for a party of four though, and good for ‘expeditions’. Some of them have rather long footprints though.

Yeah, I am biased, and vocal. WE know it. Stay safe guys.
Cheers

There was a dad bull and a boy bull on a hill looking down at

all their cows. The boy bull said ‘hey dad, lets run down this hill and mate with one of those cows.”

the dad bull replied: “No, son, lets walk down this hill and mate with all of them”

If those hybrids were not inner first pitch Id buy them now

I kind of still like the t20 xt tunnel design though
That low foot end bothers me because I heard other tunnels with a low back end can collect vapor, but they built a large vent right on that end…and the lower end shouldnt be a problem in terms of livability since that xtended porch is so big im sure there would be plenty of room for others to move out of the way so I can cook

I think I have finally decided on the lightwave t20

So it looks like I might be ordering the Lightwave t20 xt, and also buying a second flysheet that they make for their vapor t20 xt, which is the same tent but with an all cuben fly, not so great for winter due to breath-ability issues, but for shoulder season it should let me save some weight …for four season use I will be taking along the original fly the hyper t20 ships with (suitable for 4 season use)

http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/tents-and-spares/all-tents/voyager-tent/

Just found this bad boy!

inner first pitching also make the Voyager more stable and quieter than a tunnel tent in windy conditions
HuH? ? ?

‘Inner first pitching’ means you may have trouble pitching the tent in bad weather (see previous photo #2), and the fly is going to slide around on the poles for fairly low stability (See photo #1). Far LESS stable would be my verdict. Spin.

Quieter? That’s a new one on me. Marketing spin, little else.

Cheers

Yeah I just read that …and was like ??, I’ll read more before I post

What do you think of the t20, roger?