8 pound base weight

[Jim Colten]

Here I go again, looking at a gear list posting … is the moon full?

I'll be buying that book for evangelizing purposes … should be a great companion to Lighten Up!. Do you have a target publication date yet?

Comments:

* +1 regarding no TP being a barrier for too many folks

* bivy? if it's for insect protection, see head net comment below, if it's only for mist/splash protection see tarp comment below

* head net? If for sleeping, use an SMD Meteor bivy, if for other times … a bit of DEET or swat them?

* tarp? You Bet! but a GG SpinnShelter would eliminate your bivy and still provide splash/mist protection and provides for a lower barrier for the person transitioning from a tent … very small weight and cost penalty. Of course you'd want to add in a ground cloth.

* gaiters? I suppose that's an HYOH thing but are they really beneficial outside of deep snow or maybe off trail? (I'm open to be convinced if you want to state a case for them)

* thinny thin socks? OK, but only if you make it clear that one needs to hike regularly with them to maintain foot toughness.

* at least mention the possibility of using trekking poles or bringing shelter poles … I like my wussy sticks and if I didn't I too can find sticks, but some locale's don't provide usable sticks.

* one liter fuel bottle??? Platy still makes a 1/2 liter version

[Jim Colten]

Mike,

regarding posting the PDF form to your profile … are you wanting to post multiple versions on your profile? If not, just go thru the uploading process and it'll replace what's there.

Or, you could make the PDF available via Google Docs

[Mike Clelland]

Huge thanks for the replies
=====================

Pretty much every comment here is thoroughly dealt with int he text (and cartoons) of the book. The list reflects the content of the text, so it matches the tips and instructions. I deal with all kinds of options in the book, but I only show one gear list.

=====================

1. True enough – I have achieved the title of zealot about one issue on these forums. Yep, the list does NOT include toilet paper. I have taught camping for 16 years to total beginners, and never once took toilet paper. Nobody has ever complained, ever. Easy. I have found too much used toilet paper in the mountains left by lazy campers, and it makes my heart sink. The skills required when leaving the TP behind are sanitary and simple.

2. Razor blade is a fine tool, and only 5 cents. I purposely choose both the Lightest AND the cheapest items (mostly)

3. For the purposes of the book, I only deal with tarps. And I mostly suggest using them as a pillow on nice nights. For summertime 3-season camping, a tarp is absolutely fine. THat was how I learned to camp in the rockies with NOLS in 1988. For mountaineering in alaska, I would advocate a tent.

4. The Book is an ULTRA-LIGHT instructional, so the base weight should be below 10 pounds.

5. Ahhh – the Ziploc pillow idea! I perfected this during the summer. I now have a VERY light and VERY comfortable pillow, made from VERY inexpensive materials. More soon on that…

6. In the text I address the benefits of a bigger tarp and no bivy. I also address the quilt and bivy combo creating a little more snuggy sleeping conditions.

7. THe pot lifter. I have melted gloves and hurt my fingers enough on an alcohol stove that I like the pot lifter. THis is something I am trying to solve. For me, the lifter is a safety issue.

8. I take a large size shirt, medium pants and a LONG sized sleeping bag. I'm 6'1" tall.

9. The list is set up for the northern rockies in summer. A standard *3-season* system.

10. THe book will be out *sometime* this winter.

11. I listed the JAM on the list because I do an illustration on how to cut gear off your pack. The pack in the drawing is a JAM. In the text I deal with the super lightweight packs and their limitations.

12. My GoLite down quilt weighs 19 oz.

13. The inflatable ProLite mattress sized XS from thermarest weighs 8 oz.

14. My 7.5 oz synthetic hoodie is from Patagonia. It's basically lightweight long underwear with a hood. I can't find it on the site. It's called the SPF something.

15. The 1-liter bottle (for alcohol fuel) is listed because this list has the option as a base weight for a 10-day trip.

[D G]

7. THe pot lifter. I have melted gloves and hurt my fingers enough on an alcohol stove that I like the pot lifter. THis is something I am trying to solve. For me, the lifter is a safety issue.

A bale works good. Stainless bicycle spoke cut down will weigh about 0.1 oz. Bend in a semicircle with tension when attached and it will stay upright.

Tie a string to bail and swing around in circle to settle camp coffee grounds – or hold bail directly while swinging arm in circle (not joking, this actually works).

[Greg Mihalik]

Hoody –
"Patgonia's M's UV/UPF Lightweight Sun Hoody "

No longer at the Patagonia site, but I did find one at AlexandMe.com

Thanks for the clue

[John Davis]

How much modification would the list need for Scotland? Should 4 kg be the aim for an ultralight Highlander or would you still aim for 8 lbs in an environment where waterproofs are more Items Worn than Clothing Carried?

I had two great trips to Scotland this August, the first with a Cave 1 and an MLD Bug Bivy and the second with an Akto. The Akto gives a touch of luxury when you need to seal the midges out but is a disadvantage in every other aspect of backpacking. As the Bug Bivy set up was always comfortable enough, I think I'm going to make a permanent transition to tarps but they will have to be tarps which can exclude the wind, so beaks will feature.

The items which scare me most are the food and fuel allowances. Does the Consumables mass allow for 2000m of ascent a day, which could easily happen if you were climbing Munros and Corbetts? It surely can't allow for an above tree line tea addiction.

[tommy d]

If I were new to backpacking or to lightweight backpacking, I think I would be confused by the section names that you provided in your gear list. Specifically, the terms "essential" and "dinky." There are a few problems with these terms, not the least of which being that not everything on your essentials list is essential for everybody or in every situation.

Instead, I would suggest breaking the list down into (a) navigation, (b) hydration, (c) hygiene, (d) record keeping, and (e) tools. I believe all of the items in those two sections can easily fit into those five categories and they will make a lot more sense.

Good luck with the book!

[Elliott Wolin]

I agree with the comment on TP by Mike W. People have said you'd have to "pry the TP out of my cold, dead fingers before I give it up."

[Mike W]

…

[James holden]

just my opinion …

but i think a list and techniques with more generally available equipment would be an easier sell … im sure you can still get a sub 10 lb base with a light tent, bag, pack, etc …

i would personally stay away from "modified gear" except to put it in an "advanced" chapter

the simple fact is that if you do want more general adoption you have to lower the mental and risk barriers to entry

there is a HUGE interest in backpacking/hiking light … any google adwords analysis will show you that … unfortunately not everyone is hardcore off the get go

obviously the choice is with the author on whether he/she wants to create a more "hardcore" book or a BPL for dummies

newcomers NEED TP … its not an option … lol

[Greg Mihalik]

Mike,
I like the list.
I like the philosophy.
I like the approach.

It provides everything necessary for a laudable target. Even if parts aren't fully embraced, at least you are shining a light on what, with only a little effort, is possible.

+1

[Jamie Shortt]

Mike, I'm a huge fan and will buy your book the instant it is out. I think your illustrations are incredible. Hands down this form of communication you deliver is fun and helps to ease learning. I think this gear list is spot on for delivering alot of comfort at little weight.

Let me point out a few minor items…I've only skimmed the replies (I've been busy of late) so not meaning to repeat too much. First, I'm a huge tarp fan, but I believe it is a major hang up for transitional folks. As pointed out your might want discuss a tarp tent as an option and add the skills needed to erect a tarp. Also I have many alcohol stoves and use them 99% of the time, but for easing into light weight I typically recommend canister stove like the snowpeak giga. If going with an alcohol stove I'd make sure it is a caldera cone. Dealing with wind and not knocking over an alcy stove a major skills.

Now for my big concern. I have owned and used most items on your list and I agree with all of them, but a lot of the critical items are not currently available, some not for a while, and some witll never be available again. The items that are critical are the golite ultra 20, jam2, and vapr bivy.

Let me start with the quilt. The ultra 20 is a great quilt, I owned from the beginning but sadly it is not available. After you get your book published this quilt will be years in the past. Not sure it helps to show people items that are no longer available. I would offer up a JRB quilt instead. It is interesting multi purpose grear item that the Jack's can get you in a few days.

Now to the pack…I'm a Jam2 fan and have to ask…is your list a modified JAM or Jam2. You can get the Jam2 down to 17 oz, I know because my trimmed Jam2 weighs 16.75 oz which includes the back pad. But given the weight of the new Jam I'm not sure it can get close to 17 oz. If you are showing how to mod the current Jam to 17 oz then all is good…and I'm buying the book. But showing how to mod a Jam2 won't be terrible relevant.

Now to the bivy. I believe a bivy is critical part of effective tarp camping. I've made many lists to help new folks into the light weight world and the bivy is always the hardest part…which is why I normally give in and move to a tarp tent of LW double wall tent. The vapr bivy hasn't been around for years and yes the one coming up looks to be a great offering, but let's face it BPL gear comes and goes and getting this gear while it is in stock is an advanced skill, hardly something for a new to the sport person to deal with. I also have trouble pointing folks to cottage shops with 1-2 month wait times. I'm a huge MLD fan, but do not recommend to the new comer. My guess is Katabatic gear might be the way to go. ie. I order and get my item next week.

Well that's about it. I want your book. Good luck!

Your loyal fan,
Jamie

[Michael Ray]

I'm a relative newbie having only 2 major trips under my belt. My base was almost 18 for my first trip and 13.5 on my second, which included puffy clothing. I do have lots of knowledge though from reading these forums the past 18 months. You don't mention your specific target audience though. Is this "ULTRA-LIGHT instructional" going to be aimed at people that are already lightweight or people that are still heavyweights? My comments assume the latter (the traditional crowd) for the most part. I also assume you'll be discussing most of this gear in your text and how it all works together.

1. Shoes seem pretty heavy. Even generic ones from Walmart are < 27 oz.
2. I hate low cut socks. I prefer crew and suspect most other traditional people would as well.
3. Rain skirt – someone else mentioned not to include MYOG stuff. I'd agree in general (ie, cookset items are OK). Maybe you include how to make one in your text? Maybe cutoff DriDucks?
4. I'd want my lamp without having to wear a warm hat.
5. Many wouldn't want to hike without poles, whether it's for improved balance on crossings, prior injuries, etc.
6. Sleeping in bivy or headnet is too claustrophobic for many (like me). I like space to stretch out, go over my maps, write in my journal, etc.
7. No groundcloth?
8. Razor is a no go. +1 on Victorinox Classic.
9. No way I could manage 10 days with no TP and just 0.7 oz of sanitizer. Granted I don't take soap.

Good list overall.

[Kattt]

I found your gear list very inspiring. I am getting ideas from lists like yours on how to get to under 20 lbs, which has been a challenge for me. Let's say for the Rae Lakes Loop this summer, even with my Sublite, Neoair,Megalite, GG Mariposa Plus, Montbell Inner and so forth, I don't even come close to that. I usually carry way too much water, lots and lots of food since I have a pretty high metabolsm and get cold really easily, and then all the down clothing…… Food and clothing are my biggest challenge.
Factor in that at 108 lbs, my 20, 22 lbs are actually quite a bit more than for someone who weighs in at 180lbs.

[Ken Thompson]

Jamie brings up a great point in that books are a snapshot in time. With the rate of advancement that gear has seen of late. I'm afraid listing specific gear of any type will risk becoming old news/irrelevant by the time it hits the shelf. That's what great about the internet. Constant changes can be addressed constantly.

[Nick Gatel]

Mike C,

Who is your target audience for this work? Why will your book be better/supplement the current offerings? Both are rhetorical questions.

Also, you may want to try and stay away from specific models of gear, or offer several similar products as comparisons. If the book is "heavily" dependent on your favorite models of gear, it will become dated very quickly.

Good luck on your venture.

[Larry Dyer]

Good call on the XS prolite pad! I'd forgotten all about that thing even though I use the small size of the same pad. This is a good product for newbies since it's pretty cheap and can be bought from REI on what amounts to a trial basis. Yes, very good call indeed… now you have me thinking though….

I assumed you were going off newer gear when I mentioned the discrepancy in weights. The Ultra 20 quilt would be spot on for this list and I love mine to death. It's really a shame they're out of production and it would explain the weight discrepancy. I agree that you need to use current gear but giving credit where credit is due to older gear would be kind of neat. Just make sure the reader knows it's out of production by saying something like, "or if you can find one of the old blah blah blah's…."

[Miguel Arboleda]

5. Ahhh – the Ziploc pillow idea! I perfected this during the summer. I now have a VERY light and VERY comfortable pillow, made from VERY inexpensive materials. More soon on that…

Been scratching my head on this. Very intriguing. Do you wrap an elastic cord around the ziploc bag after folding over the zipper on top? Or one ziploc bag inside another? How do you keep your head from rolling off? One of the great things about the MontBell pillow is that the double bulb helps keep your head in place,

[David Ure]

Sounds comfy!!

(Not)

[Unknown abc]

"Also, you may want to try and stay away from specific models of gear, or offer several similar products as comparisons. If the book is "heavily" dependent on your favorite models of gear, it will become dated very quickly."

Agreed. Focus more on the principles first, then perhaps provide some examples, in an appendix. If I'm a noobie reading your book and trying to learn how to go light, I probably don't want to become overwhelmed by a ton of gear at this point.

[Mary D]

I agree with the others here about staying away from specific models of gear. I'd use general specifications instead (the gear list for the BPL courses is an excellent example of this). Otherwise your book will be out of date before it even goes to publication.

My own experience 6 years ago, when I started exploring lightweight gear, was that it was extremely frustrating to read about specific lightweight gear items only to find that many highly recommended models were discontinued (the Mountainsmith Ghost pack was a prime example, but far from the only one).

I like to refer beginners and people wanting to lighten up to the excellent "Backpacking 101" book on this site, but I always tell them that any specific gear information is quite out of date. For specific gear info, I refer folks to Mark Verber's site (I don't know how Mark keeps it up and still has time for anything else!).

In your case, you can avoid this problem by not being brand- or model-specific. Your book, instead of being out-of-date before it's published, will be relevant and useful far longer!

The other thing you might consider is to allow more room for the "YMMV" aspect of backpacking. For example, some of us have medical conditions that require the use of TP and wet wipes (yes, I pack out every scrap). Some of us also worry about the effect of destroying vegetation (i.e. picking leaves) in fragile alpine environments (technically illegal in a number of jurisdictions). On another issue about which you are vehement, while I would actually prefer a tarp to a tent, I have not been able to find a tarp + ground sheet + bug net combination that would acommodate both me and my 80-lb. dog (part of my sleep system, lol!) and is lighter than my Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic. As for sleeping pads, some of us older folk require a 2.5-3 inch thick insulated air pad to be able to sleep at all, much less comfortably.

Definitely state your case, but please recognize in the text that your opinion may not be the only valid one. By being inflexible on these items, you are probably "turning off" more people than you are convincing!

I'm looking forward to reading your book, but I hope you'll make the changes we have suggested.

[Eric Lundquist]

One book that I often refer back to time and time again is Ray Jardine's Beyond Backpacking. Why? Because he explains why he uses such and such piece of gear and how it fits into the total system. There are a few brand specific mentions in his book, such as where to get an item and it's specific benefits, but generally he's talking about generic items. A 'lightweight nylon shirt', 'running shoes', etc.

I think if you go the route everyone here is suggesting in the way of generic items you're book will be well received. Keep in mind that a brand specific list might be a good comparison to exactly how light you can get. If the reader doesn't want to experiment on their own and just wants a detailed shopping list they'll have one.

[Nick Gatel]

One thing I have always wondered about is how many Trailwise packs and Svea 123s were purchased because Colin Fletcher used them.

What I did like about his book was what he liked, why he liked it, and how he used it. But he did try to be fair and present a plethora of similar equipment. His books are still in print and most others are not. Even Jardine's first book was out of print, before his current one came out.

[John Whynot]

>>One thing I have always wondered about is how many Trailwise packs and Svea 123s were purchased because Colin Fletcher used them.

I purchased both based on his book.

Informed opinion, combined with well written and witty prose, along with clever and amusing illustrations, goes a long way, even if the specific gear is no longer available.

I'll buy Mike's book as soon as it is available…

[Sam Haraldson]

Mike, I see you've got poly tights listed instead of puffy pants. Have you switched over? I prefer the puffy pants I can pull on over my regular pants to using tights because you have to take your pants off to put them on. Why and when did you switch?

[Author]

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