Help me choose a new sleeping bag

I'm 5'6" and ~160 lbs. I tried both the Alpinlite and the Ultralite at the outfitter, but went with the wider Alpinlite (6') bag thinking like you that I'd be wearing my down jacket and could store items inside to keep them warm. However, I feel that the Alpinlite is too roomy, and less efficient.

I like my bag, but wish I had gotten the Ultralite in the 5'6" length.

David-
Regarding the draft collars: The Helium doesn't really have one–it's a "passive" collar that looks like no more than a hood ruff. The only face-area drawcord related to the Helium is the hood. The Phantom uses a horseshoe-style draft collar with corresponding back tube; there's no drawcord to cinch up but it works pretty well passively. The velcro related to that collar just helps join the upper and lower parts of the collar. The Western bags have a small velcro tab to join upper and lower, but they also use a drawcord for the draft collar itself–in addition to the drawcord on the hood.

Regarding down quantity: the Phantom 15 does use 20 ounces of down. So does the Versalite. The Helium uses 19.5 ounces. All the same amount of down. As far as real-world, non-data observation, I can only base that on what I see and feel on a daily basis. That observation is that, regardless of how much fill should be in each bag, the Phantoms do not loft as well as the other two bags you're considering.

Girth: The Versalite is a 62" girth. So is the Helium. The Phantom 15 is a 60" girth.

The "Super" designation was dropped this year. In the past it was used to designate bags with the draft collar system that is now standard on all their 20* and lower mummy bags.

I weighed the Helium and Versalite in store just now. I used the same silnylon stuff sack for both, weight of 0.7 oz. Helium is 2# 1oz, Versalite is 2# 2oz (both including stuff sack weight). For the ounce difference you gain the draft collar and full-length zip. Weights included hang tags on both. I sold the last Phantom 15 a while back and we haven't re-ordered one yet.

I wouldn't be concerned w/included stuff sack weights. Weights given for bags are bag weight. Also, you want to minimize the number of stuff sacks you carry. As a previous poster said (sorry, forgot name) use bigger sacks and get more stuff in them. Shouldn't need more than four.

Re: Alpinlite–I'd be surprised if it wasn't too big for you. Add 5 ounces (compared to Ultralite) and lose heating efficiency.

Lastly, as for actual weights, my WM Summerlite has a reported weight of 19 ounces–and that's what it weighs. My WM MityLite has a reported weight of 1# 10oz, and that's what it weighs, and my WM Antelope DL/WS is supposed to be 2# 13 ounces and is. Within ~1oz The Ultralite will be 1# 10oz, Alpinlite 1# 15oz, and Versalite 2#.

Thomas,

Now that I think about it, the Alpinlite might be a bit roomy. I'm 5'7" and around 135-140 lbs. The Mountain Hardwear Phantom 32 with its 60" girth fits me just fine, but I have tried smaller bags such as the REI Sub Kilo 20 and found them uncomfortable…or maybe that was just REI.

Would a SHORT fit me, or would that be pushing it?

I thought the 08 Helium had a full zip. Of course since I am trading an old bag in to Marmot the Helium will only be $200 and that is still much cheaper than any WM bag in that range of $380.

"maybe I can get by with the Phantom 32 for my upcoming Big Bend trip. Low temps don't seem to be getting into the 20s very much. With a down jacket, do you think the Phantom 32 would suffice for temps down to say…25 degrees?"

I would realistically rate the Phantom 32 as a 50F bag.

Tom,

My experience with the MH Phantom 32 is vastly different than yours. I have slept in a Phantom 32 to temps in the mid 20's with little additional clothing.

I have been impress with the MH Phantom series.

Ed

there is little argument by seasoned veterans that a bag made in china cannot, will not, and have not ever met the quality and craftsmanship of a US made sleeping bag.

buy a WM or FF

Tom, i agree, the phantom 32° is a more a 40-45° bag. I owned the bag for over a year. Not a bad piece of gear, but not a 32° bag.
unless you get lucky, and can hold one in your hands to fully inspect it before purchase, the MB super stretch is also iffy, and the one I recieved (via internet purchase) was a POS with understuffed baffles. the SS #3 I owned had an empty chest area chamber. EMPTY!

buy a WM of FF

WM &; FF make great bags. I have owned several as well as Marmot, Mont-Bell, SD, BA, TNF, Kifaru, GoLite etc. I have slept many nights in all of them.

IMO, WM & Valandre make the very best bags with FF right up there but ther are a lot of good bags on the market.

Ed

I will admit that the loft on my MH Phantom 32 is less than stellar. The Marmot Helium has at least twice the loft of the Phantom.

However, I have slept fine in temps down to around freezing with only a lighweight baselayer and a heavyweight baselayer top over that. I was wearing a light hat and glove liners, too.

Been pretty chilly in Big Bend lately. And without saying anything specific about the brands mentioned, I can say that, in all of the many forums I foolishly waste time in, I have never seen anyone complain about the quality or performance of a WM bag, or regret purchasing one. Never. Maybe I've just been lucky. Maybe WM includes special kool-aid. I'd sure like one. Too bad we can't do a group buy.

I have used a MH Fairview 40 for 2 seasons now. I have had it down to 35 with just a baselayer on several times. It is not a UL bag (1#15oz, 600-fill down), but was on clearance for $85, and I would call the temp rating conservative. My friend got a Phantom 32 at the same time and has had it down to mid-20s with just a baselayer and 100 weight fleece jacket. I think, like so many things, these tolerances are extremely subjective and depend greatly on the individual and all those other factors that we talk about all the time (sleeping pad, shelter, bivy, calorie intake).
I also have a MH Phantom 15. I haven't used it because it is too tight for me (6'3", 235), but it lofts like crazy. Laying beside my WM Megalite w/overfill, it looks to have at least an inch more loft. If you like the 32 degree version, Ithink you would be very happy with the 15 degree one. Also, unless they changed this in this year's model, the draft collar on the Phantom 15 velcros together on the zipper side and DOES have a drawstring for both the top and bottom of the collar on the non-zipper side. It also has a MUCH better hood on it, it conforms to the shape of the head and neck better than the Megalite, don't know if the hoods are the same on the lower temp rated WM bags.
That said, if you are comfortable in your MH Ph32 without puffy jacket and pants at 30, then I would think you could probably use it wih the jacket and pants at around 20.

I thought someone had said that WM bags are made in Canada now.

I am quite impressed with MH quality and one of my partners who has climbed/hunted and skiied all over the world is very much an MH fan. However and based on what I now own, my preference in sleeping bags is Valandre, but ONLY the Shocking Blue and now Bloody Mary designs and then Western Mountaineering.

The Integral Designs down bags are every bit as good as WM, actually superior in a couple of minor points, but, WM microfiber bags are THE real value in top bags at present.

I have FF, WM, ID, Val. and have had original Marmot Mtn. and various others and am just totally impressed with Valandre, another option to consider.

I have a Mountain Hardwear Phantom 0 that lofts great and even though I am a cold sleeper, it has kept me warm in southeastern humid 4* weather. My only real complaint is that it only has a ¾ zipper, but that isn’t as big of deal on a 0* bag as it is a warmer bag.

I also have two Western Mountaineering bags, a Summerlite and an Ultralite. My Ultralite is from 2004 and is pre-draft collar. I have used it down to 18* with midweight base layers. I wholeheartedly recommend any of Western Mountaineering’s bags. They are clearly top notch.

Unlike some, I have been happy with my MH Phantom, but it just isn’t as nice of a bag as WM. If the price is anywhere close go with WM, but I think you would be reasonably happy with the MH also.

OK,

I just got my wife's Marmot Helium in the mail so I can provide some actual weight measurements. I also re-measured my Helium.

Here are the results:

Helium Women's Reg = 32.7 oz
Helium Men's Reg = 35.1 oz

That's a bit over specifications. Marmot specifies the men's as 31 oz and the women's as 29 oz, I believe. Another thing which is odd is that on the Helium Women's tag is says that the comfort level tested on an avg woman is good down to 28.9* F and for a man down to 18* F. What gives? Why is it called a "Helium 15"?

Since I got the Woman's bag so cheap (around $220), I think I'll probably keep it. Hopefully the extra weight is extra down, and my wife can use it. For me, I think I will try an Ultralite or something similar under 2 lbs. I'm tempted to order a Phantom 15 to see if it falls under 2 lbs. Anyone got an actual weight on the Phantom?

"I'm tempted to order a Phantom 15 to see if it falls under 2 lbs. Anyone got an actual weight on the Phantom?"

There are two easy ways to make a bag lighter…print a lower number on the tag, and not put so much down in it.

David,

I think that the reason why you have that disclaimer about the temperature ratings is due to a new method of testing.

On the Marmot website, they have some blurb on how they test and rate the bags.

The newer bags seem heavier than the 2007 model that I have for the same temperature rating.

My guess is that with this new system of rating, they had to change the rating of the older bags and would explain why the newer ones are heavier.

Just a guess on my part.

Other than the weight being off….what are your impressions about the bag's materials and workmanship?

-Tony

I think the heavier weight of the Helium is due to the full length zipper. The Helium's a nice bag, fits great, although I do miss the draft collar on the Phantom. I'm actually not a big fan of the drawcord rubbing on your face.

I'm tempted to try a Western Mountaineering. I'm wondering now if I could get by with a short. I think I'm only a hair over 5'6". Is a "short" bag exactly 5'6" long, is it sized for a 5'6" tall person?

I'm still looking for suggestions for my wife's bag. Too bad Western Mountaineering doesn't make women's bags.

BTW, do you guys know if they make left AND right zippers, so you could potentially mate two together? The Heliums are both left zip only (male and female), as are the Phantoms, I think.

WM bags are not generous in their length. I'm 6'1" and I was pretty keen on getting by with a 6' bag. It was just too short though, and I doubt I would have been happy if I was 6' either. It's fine without the hood on, but once you try and cinch it down you have problems with your head or feet getting squashed against the end of the bag. So I ended up getting a 6'6" bag (ultralite). My advice would be to try before you buy if you are going to try and squeeze into the 5'6" bag.

They make both left and right zip bags… edit: as Bob points out below, it seems that they should zip together as long as they are the same type/size of bag.

FWIW, I've also got a Marmot NeverSummer bag (pretty heavy winter bag) and the hood is magic compared to the WM ultralite. Marmot makes beautiful hoods that just sit perfectly around your head without feeling like you have your head in a stuffsack. The hood on my WM ultralite is not nearly so nice and comfy, and is the one area (apart from length) that I think it could be improved. But maybe they were trying to cut down on weight.

If you're planning to use your bag at or around 15 degrees then a draft collar is invaluable. It traps the heat below your neck and stops cold air rushing in every time you move around. I wouldn't buy a cold-weather bag without one.

WM bags are unisex. My wife and I each have one of the awmirectangular microfiber shelled bags and she stays quite warm in hers.

Yes, you can get left and right zip versions of all the bags. They will mate with their opposite zip of any WM bag of the same ZIPPER LENGTH and BAG STYLE (mummy, or semirectangular). They don't have to be the same exact bag.

I'm 6'8" so I don't have the luxury of two options, or the cash for a custom build, so I got a 6'6" Ultalite and crossed my fingers. It is in fact just long enough to make the hood useable, but a couple more inches would have been just right, so I guess WM have it pretty spot on in sizing terms.

I am 6'5" and I know the Marmot longs I have had in the past have always been very roomy lengthwise.

Hey gang-thought I'd play devil's advocate again.

Tim made a comment that his Phantom 15 had an inch more loft than his Megalite, which is good, given that the Megalite is a 32* bag.

Brett: WM bags are still made in California. What you heard about was that they're making their jackets in Canada now.

David: First thing that came to mind reading one of your last posts was "Huh???" You are obviously concerned about fractions of ounces, yet when considering a bag (Wmns Helium) that weighs 6.7 ounces more than its alternative (Ultralite), you sort of say "Oh well." Maybe your wife won't end up going out much, and so the better price makes sense for a still very high quality bag. (Incidentally, feel like a dope; I don't have any full zip Heliums, must be waiting still for a new delivery?) I guess the point I wanted to make is that a lot of people here would spend a chunk of money to drop 6.7 ounces; would you spend more than the $130 price difference between those two bags to compensate for the weight?

Regarding Western sizing, zips, etc.: As Bob pointed out, they do make R and L zip. However, it doesn't matter what bag it is as long as it's WM–and sometimes even then it doesn't matter. I've zipped together my semi-rectangular Mitylite with my mummy Summerlite, Summerlite to Antelope, and Antelope to a Sierra Designs Nimbus. Bag lengths are different on all (6'3", 5'6", 6'0", and 6'6" respectively). What matters is zipper length, and as it turns out manufacturers typically use the same length zipper and add sections below the zipper to add length.

As for the fit, my Summerlite is a 5'6" model, and I'm 5'6". I fit, and comfortably, but barely so. I don't think I'd do it in a bag I'd use in colder temps where I might want to stash something in the footbox. If you were 5'7", I definitely wouldn't. Cheers-

>Tim made a comment that his Phantom 15 had an inch more loft than his Megalite, which is good, given that the Megalite is a 32* bag.

Not to be too anal, but I said it has *at least* 1" more loft than the Megalite (it was just something I noticed, not that I was measuring), which is a 30*F bag, and mine has the overfill. Since WM's 20* bags have an inch more loft than their standard 30* bags, it seems that it would need 1.5" more loft (5.5") to be a 15* bag.

BUT, as Richard Nisley points out in this thread (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=16189&startat=20), a discussion of loft is kind of pointless without considering the density of the down fill as well. I did not mean to convey anything other than the fact that its loft was on par with the WM bags. I have no idea what density of fill either one uses. I don't have any experience with bags rated at 15* or lower, so take it for what it's worth. I certainly don't have anywhere near the experience that a lot of people on this forum do so it might not be worth a whole lot. ;)

Richard is definitely one of the invaluable resources on this forum that makes it such a wealth of information for those of us that are still tweaking our gear!

-Tim

Hey Tim, didn't mean for that to sound sniping. I got a lot out of that thread, too. Experimented w/density in some MYOG projects, definitely observe more warmth w/more density. (Surprised me once; I threw on a shell over a mega-poofy down vest, could barely zip the shell, but the increase in warmth, well, it seemed like someone turned up the furnace!)