PPPPD (Pounds Per Person Per Day)

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

I read that grounded flax seeds needs to be refrigerated or else they spoil… I guess I will use a stone and make some fresh ground meal on trail. Anyone tried this?

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

>Hufeza – why dry skim milk instead of whole? I would think the higher fat content would be more appealing, despite the shorter shelf life.

Dry skim milk has higher protein content then whole milk. Also since I am planning to use this as post-exercise drink I don't want fats to slow down digestion as the body needs the carbs and proteins as soon as possible.

Ok a interesting twist:

Most authorities recommend that only carbs and protein should be consumed post-workout; fat should be avoided. The reason for this recommendation is that fat can slow digestion, but the body needs the carbs and protein as soon as possible.

However, this recommendation ignores one simple fact–fat is needed by the body to produce testosterone and other hormones. And post-workout, the body is scrambling to keep testosterone levels from dropping too low due to the rise in cortisol levels (the two hormones exist in a see-saw fashion; as one rises the other drops, and vice-a-versa). So providing fat to the body post-workout will aid in keeping testosterone levels from dropping too much and cortisol levels from rising too much.

But not just any kind of fat will do. Only saturated fatty acids (SFA) and monounsaturated fats acids (MUFA) raise testosterone levels. Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) do not. Also, as with carbs and protein, fat in a liquid form will be easier to digest than fat in solid form. So the best form of fat to consume post-workout would be one in liquid form that contains SFA and/ or MUFA, but a minimum of PUFA.

Both canola oil and peanut oil taste pretty good in a post-workout drink But their higher amounts of PUFA leaves them less desirable for raising testosterone levels. But canola oil is high in Omega 3 fatty acids, which reduce cortisol levels. This indirectly can lead to higher testosterone levels.
http://www.fitnessforoneandall.com/powerlifting/article/diet/post-workout/part_one.htm

This means that adding grounded flax seeds to post work out drink would actually be good.. I have no idea how it is going to taste.

[Laurie Ann March]

flax seeds – ground or whole can go rancid fairly quickly in the heat so you are best to only use these on trips where the weather is moderately cool

[Angela Zukowski]

I make smoothies and protein shakes with ground flax and wheat germ all the time. Taste is fine. Granted, I only put about one tablespoon of each and typically there is also yogurt, fruit, protein powder etc masking the flavors. I'm sure with a chocolate flavored breakfast mix it would not be objectionable. I personally think the wheat germ makes the flax taste much more nutty and pleasant – it definitely masks the flavor so all I really notice is wheat germ. And probably pre-ground flax would be better as it is much finer and smoother. Give it a try tonight with dinner :)

[Bob Ellenberg]

I'll be brief. For staters my wife and I are not big people, I am 145# and she is 110#. Most of our trips are leisurely where we can take some extra weight in food. But our last "hard" trip was 8 days through parts of Grand Canyon with only one layover day without hard hiking. We had a little food left over and weighed ourselves when we got out and lost no weight at all. We were carrying less than .75# of food per day.

Here is how we eat: We take nothing with moisture (no cheese, meat, jelly, bread, etc.) Morning is oatmeal with drid fruit (or grits). On the trail througout the day is EnergyC drinks, dried baley powder, dried fruit and a trail bar. Dinner is pasta dishes or some other rehydrated but well seasoned and delicious tasting meal. Olive oil is the only liquid. The dried barley stuff is sold under several brands but Barley Life is the one we prefer. If you're not used to it you won't like it as it taste like grass the first few times! However, we have consumed it as part of our regular diet for many years and it (or similar products) pack more healthy food source for the weight than anything you can carry. When backpacking we double up taking several spoonfuls each day. We are never short on energy due to lack of food.

On shorter trips where we can easily carry extra weight, we eat the same way but take along some wine, chocolate and brandy.

[christopher shive]

Huzefa,

I see your sited text comes from a powerlifting site. As a weight lifter myself, I recognize this type of diet strategy. In general: Six or Seven meals evenly spread throughout the day, protein in every meal along with either fats or low glycemix index (GI) carbs, post workout (PWO) meal is protein and high GI carbs for fast absorption (whey and dextrose), and protein and fat before bed.

The purpose of this diet strategy is to build a maximum amount of lean muscle. While many of the nutritional principles remain true regardless of situation, I'm not sure this approach is best for endurance sports (ie. hiking). Since I've never done much research regarding nutrition for endurance sports, I don't think I can suggest what the proper diet approach should be. But it seems to me the concept of spiking your body's insulin levels while pumping high amounts of protein into your bloodstream after a strenuous (but rather short-lived) workout doesn't have as much applicability in the backpacking world.

It is very interesting nonetheless. Please report your experiences should you experiment with this technique.

Chris

[Brian UL]

If its only the fats of the flax seed that you need why not just take the oil? The oil last plenty long as long as its not kept out in the sun and heat.

[Ken Helwig]

taking that oil will make you look like Barry Bonds…

[Mike Clelland]

Bob wrote:
"But our last "hard" trip was 8 days through parts of Grand Canyon with only one layover day without hard hiking. We had a little food left over and weighed ourselves when we got out and lost no weight at all. We were carrying less than .75# of food per day."

Mike replies:
Right on for you! If this works for you, I'm impressed. I like the fact that you are accurate with your numbers.

People have suggested that beginners go out with 2 PPPPD, and that seems absurdly high. Plus, There are some weight lifters on this forum that back up their needs with personal data.

The take home point is that you need to try out some system, and see if it works for you. Keep data, and continually refine your system.

Too many hikers just toss a bunch of food in their pack with nary a thought.

[Lynn Tramper]

Hufeza, you are correct about the lack of protein in Macadamias. I think your revised plan looks good. I'm glad to see you adding some breakfast foods in, as it really is the most important meal of the day.

For shorter trips, you can just add flaxseed OIL into your post workout drink. For longer trips I would recommend you just take some stabilised fish oil capsules. These are a better bet all around, as the conversion of the short chain omega-3s in flaxseed to the longer chain essential omega-3s is often very poor for a variety of reasons. In other words, your body HAS to convert the flaxseed to the stuff your body can use (DHA, EPA), but many humans are not very good at this conversion.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

I went for a day hike yesterday. Glucon-D worked great but I think there is more for me to understand about physiology and my body.

The size of the storage depot in the liver is nonnegotiable (predetermined by size, heredity, and all that–usually about 500 Calories), but the amount of glycogen stored in the muscle IS negotiable. With training and proper diet, the serious athlete can increase glycogen stores in the muscle from 500 Calories to 1,500-2000 Calories.

I think it is safe to assume that at start I will have enough glycogen for atleast 3hrs. I grossly underestimed this by having some glucon-D within the first 45mins – not because I was tired but simply because I thought I had to have it. I also found that there is no way I can eat 200g peanuts. So I will be adding butter cubes w/sugar on my hike next weekend. I am planning unfamiliar route of 20+ hours hiking with one night halt in-between. Perfect for further experiments.

[Lynn Tramper]

>"With training and proper diet, the serious athlete can increase glycogen stores in the muscle from 500 Calories to 1,500-2000 Calories."

This is not a trivial thing to accomplish. It requires first and foremost a lot of muscle mass, something that most long distance hikers do not have. Then it requires well timed glycogen depletion followed by loading, the first day of which you will have larger glycogen stores, but on each additional day you will likely not have as much glycogen stored.

Also keep in mind that most of the glycogen stored in your liver will be burned up overnight while you sleep.

>I think it is safe to assume that at start I will have enough glycogen for at least 3hrs

Easily, but to tap into those stores, your body will go into a catabolic state. THAT'S why breakfast is so important. It slows or reverse the catabolic state that we enter overnight, boosting metabolism for the rest of the day, and sparing muscle in the process.

Have fun experimenting ;) This post has wandered very far off-topic…

[Derek Goffin]

Huzefa, we bought the book re nutrition data v inflammation.
I will report back when I have read it thoroughly. It might be good. As far as backpacking light calories goes maximum benefit seems to be omega 3. Olive oil, rapeseed oil, good, other fats bad.
When not hiking eat your vegetables.

[Brian UL]

to learn about the benefits of oils go to the source:
http://udoerasmus.com/firstscreen.htm
Far from making you fat, good fats do the opposite. Refined carbs, preservatives, and artificial flavorings will. All those things are what "power bars" are made of. Oils, veggies, and some cheese are far healthier than gorp- and taste better.

I want to add….stay away from fish oil, it is extracted with chemicals and fats attract pollutants like chemicals. Eat whole fish if you want fish oil efa's.

[Lynn Tramper]

>stay away from fish oil, it is extracted with chemicals and fats attract pollutants like chemicals. Eat whole fish if you want fish oil efa's.

True to some extent. Natural fish oil in its raw form contains impurities in the form of certain heavy metals like mercury, lead, and other nasties. Reputable fish oil supplement manufacturers use a process called molecular distillation to clean and refine their oil. The best fish oil is tasteless, odorless and free from any kind of impurities including toxic substances and PCB’s.

Normally some low-grade fish oil supplements also contain additives like food coloring or preservatives. These substances only contribute to make it less effective and diminish the usefulness of essential fatty acids. The best fish oil is pure and free from any additives, impurities, and unnecessary coatings. In this context the idea of pharmaceutical grade fish oil can also be introduced. The best companies are the ones that use clinical testing to ensure a high quality refined fish oil.

When it comes to fish oil you should be very picky and not just buy the cheapest you can find. The source of fish oil is another important point to remember. Some companies do mention their oil source. Usually sardines, mackerel and salmon are considered to be good fatty fish. In addition to this, also find fish oil products made in either New Zealand or Norway. This is because the waters of both these regions are clean and less polluted than other regions of the world. So, the best fish oil is the one that is extracted from Hoki or other fish found in deep cold waters of New Zealand or Norway.

Conflicy of Interest: I live in NZ!!

As I mentioned before, it is important to understand that long-chain omega-3s are nutritionally superior to short-chain omega-3s. Short-chain ALA (non-functional, the stuff from plants) converts in your body to its long-chain and functional counterparts EPA and DHA in an enzymatic process which is inefficient. Estimates of the efficiency of this conversion range from 5% to 10% and the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition rates the process at less than 5%. This means you need to consume 10 to 20 times more ALA (as in flaxseed oil) to reach the same nutritional value of EPA and DHA from animal sources. Fish oil is, quite simply, a more UL way to get your (functional) omega-3 fats.

[Brian UL]

I dont know what "molecular distillation" is. but as I understand it to separate the fats from the rest of the fish they use acids. And acid ( or alkyds ) as well as heat are usually use to refine oils as well. Plants can be (cold) pressed.
I am not able to address the study you cite ( Im not a scientist) but study's with athletes show flax oil or more specifically a blend of plant oils ( for a good proportion of omega -3 and omega 6s) increase health and dramatically improve energy levels and performance.

[Lynn Tramper]

>but study's with athletes show flax oil or more specifically a blend of plant oils ( for a good proportion of omega -3 and omega 6s) increase health and dramatically improve energy levels and performance.

Yes, but if you look at the studies comparing fish oil to flax oil, you will see that the dose needed is *much* higher with the flaxseed. All I'm really pointing out is that, for UL purposes, pharmaceutical grade fish oil is much lighter to accomplish the same job. However, if you are trying to boost your calories by adding extra fat, then adding flaxseed oil is a good idea except it is very heat and oxygen sensitive. Purified and encapsulated fish oil is much more stable.

As for impurities, this is why it's very important to get hold of pharmaceutical grade. It is rigourously purified and concentrated, and the balance of EPA/DHA is adjusted for optimum balance. It is also tested for all the commonly known toxins and impurities. The stuff you buy from the health food store is often just very low grade cod liver oil-nasty stuff so stay away from it!!! Although you pay a premium for the good stuff, it is also more concentrated so you need to take less…even more UL than ordinary fish oil ;)

[Brian UL]

Just to to throw a curb ball. I was going through my sources and fond that fish dont produce their oil but get it from red/brown algae which can be grown in tanks -pollution free indoors. I dont know of anyone who does this though.

[Lynn Tramper]

>I dont know of anyone who does this though.

I HAVE seen this stuff available somewhere…it is popular with some vegetarians who want the complete EPA/DHA in their diet…

http://www.prleap.com/pr/29476/

[Lynn Tramper]

From http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Fish-Oil-Really-Better-Than-Flaxseed-Oil?&id=1313064

Fish oil or flaxseed oil? That is the question posed by millions of health-conscious people each day. But what is the main reason why millions of people are reaching for either fish oil or flaxseed oil? If you said omega-3 fatty acids then you're correct.

But what if I told you that one of these oils doesn't present us with a viable or usable source of omega-3s in the body? Pretty shocking, eh!

Well the truth of the matter is that fish oil offers you a much better omega-3 "bang for your buck". Why? It all boils down to two important compounds known as EPA and DHA.

We need EPA and DHA to protect our heart, for healthy brain and eye development, prevention and treatment of skin diseases, arthritis, for immune function and more.

Why Not Just Eat Flax?

For decades a debates have been fought about whether flaxseed oil could provide adequate levels of EPA. The verdict – flaxseed should never be used for its EPA producing ability.

Flaxseed oil is a wonderful healing oil but it is not a source of EPA.

Having said that, I will often add flaxseed oil to many of my salad dressings and other foods but it is not the oil I use for EPA and DHA.

Research shows that flaxseed oil is poorly converted to EPA and that it provides absolutely no DHA. One study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition evaluated 45 healthy men and post-menopausal women (18 to 65). They all had normal cholesterol and were asked to eat olive oil as their oil source. They were divided into 3 groups. One got ALA (alpha linolenic acid – from flax) and the other two with a supplemental form of EPA.

Each was given 750mg for 3 weeks and then 1,500mg for 3 weeks in a supplement. Both the EPA groups had significant increases in EPA in red blood cells however there was no increase in EPA in the ALA (flax) group. Neither the ALA nor EPA group showed significant increases in DHA; which, means that we should also supplement with DHA.

The reason why the flax ALA group did not witness an increase in EPA in red blood cells is because of an enzyme in the body that is needed to convert ALA to EPA.

This enzyme called the Delta-6-desaturase if not working properly stops the conversion of ALA to EPA. The Flax Council of Canada states that flaxseed has a limited conversion to EPA in healthy people of up to only 8%! However, new very sophisticated studies are showing that this is even rare.

The reasons why the Delta-6-desaturase enzyme does not work as well as why we can't convert ALA to EPA are as follows:

* Anyone with diabetes has a faulty delta-6 enzyme

* Viral infection

* Allergic disease

* High cholesterol

* Stress hormones

* Aging

* Menopause (menopausal women have been found to have an inactive enzyme)

* Alcohol

* Smoking

* Arachidonic acid

* Saturated fat

* Trans fatty acid consumption in the diet

* Nutrient deficiency of Zinc, B6, vitamin C

[Brian UL]

My grip with this study is that it seems to be testing flax oil that has been cooked? Cooking destroys oils and even makes them harmful. But, I can concede that if fish oil is not polluted it may be more beneficial but, Dr Erasmus without whom we would not be having this discussion recommends against it and I personally prefer some flax/olive oil on my food over fish pills.

Oh -and if they can come out with that algae oil that would be great!

[Lynn Tramper]

>Dr Erasmus without whom we would not be having this discussion recommends against it

Dr Erasmus has a strong competing interest, so take it with a grain of salt.

>I personally prefer some flax/olive oil on my food over fish pills.

Fair enough. Most vegetarians would agree with you.

>Cooking destroys oils and even makes them harmful.

There are a plethora of studies I didn't cite that used raw flaxseed oil and found the same result…

Anyway, would you seriously carry flaxseed oil for a long trip over summer?? Just curious! The algae oil sounds interesting!

[Lynn Tramper]

Hufeza

I was just looking at the groovy-biotic article again. It has a dynamite GORP recipe that is well thought out and balanced for many minerals, proteins and vitamins (including omega-3). It sounds like it would be ideal for your evening meals (it's all nuts, seeds, figs and chocolate).

And the Super Spackle recipe packs a combo of good fats, proteins and sugars in a compact and quickly eatable form! As the article says "This stuff is so ridiculously rich, that just a tiny bit is unbelievably gratifying."

[Alex Blondeau]

I'm new to the light weight meal planning philosophy… but I want IN! I've been living in the summer sausage, cheese and crackers world for the past 15 years.

I'm taking a crack at planning meals for 4 guys for our upcoming trip to Glacier National Park, and I have to say, I'm struggling.

I'm shooting for a target of 1.5lbs PPPPD at around 3000 cal.

Here's the spreadsheet of my first meal attempt: http://draggerseats.com/random_images/1 Day Menu.xls

As you can see I had to add a 2 oz shot of olive oil just to reach 2844 cal. Can any of those of you who are experienced at this give me some idea of where I'm going wrong?

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Mike C. I love your books. Got all of 'em except your last one on LW backpacking.

(Can you sense a "but" coming?)

BUT… I always take one energy bar and a packet of noodle soup extra (sorry, no dog food :) "just in case".

Coming off a trip with just those is what REALLY gives me a sense of security and the feeling I've done it just right.

[Author]

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