PPPPD (Pounds Per Person Per Day)

Touching a bit on what John has mentioned. Are we talking about including water content of the food, or without? So, if you are bringing FD food, which I use almost exclusively, do we weigh just the dehydrated food to get to this PPPPD number? Or do we weigh the food and then add the required weight in water that is needed to make it (ie. ~2 cups per meal = X grams or ounces)?

I need someone to really lay this out for me…like I said before, I just grab 3 meals/day plus snacks and off I go. I have never really weighed the stuff…almost seems ridiculous considering how much time, money, and "science" I put into reducing gear weight. :)

No, it would be the dried weight and/or the "carry" weight.

In other words if your freeze dried meal weighs 6 ounces dry, that is its carry weight. If you carry a fresh orange and it weighs 5 ounces, that is its weight.

Thanks Sarah…i think…:)

So the 1.4 PPPPD that Mike speaks of is dry weight. You couldn't bring 1.4 lbs of fresh meat and veggies per day, but you could bring 1.4 lbs of FD meat and FD veggies.per day

So, let's say I was bringing premade ravioli in sauce…I would have to bring more then 1.4 lbs because the water is already added.

Correct?

please be patient with me..:)

Steven Evans wrote:

I have never really weighed the stuff [food] …almost seems ridiculous considering how much time, money, and "science" I put into reducing gear weight. :)

Steven's remarks above capture this "quandry" perfectly!

I think it is really important to try and examine our food and it's weight with the same watchful-eye that we would use for the rest of our gear. But, this isn't always the case. It's overlooked in a way that might seem (to quote Steven) "ridiculous" !

I'm enjoying this thread!

Mike, can you give me an example of your menu on…let's say a 3 day trip…@ 1.4 PPPPD if you don't mind.
Thanks,
Steve

Hey Mike, Could you give a rundown of the most calorie dence backpacking foods out there: Is it 1oz should be worth 150 calories?

About the FOOD WEIGHT and WATER content:

________________________________________

Yes, this is a tricky one to try and quantify.

I mean, we could take a raisin to MIT and have scientists analyze and I feel assured that they would find SOME water it.

But raisins are different than an un-peeled orange. And I would truly enjoy eating an orange in the backcountry, but I might not bring it on a long expedition.

I think the United States Supreme Court came up with a tidy definition of pornography that might work well here.

"You know it when you see it."

So, if you meticulously lined up all your rations for a 10-day trip on your kitchen counter, you would have a good overview of what you are taking. And, if you were dedicated to saving pack weight you would strive for HI-calorie / LOW-weight foods. I don't think you would need a degree in nutrition to make good decisions about what food to take.

Sorry – No good answers here, just some insights from my experience.

"So, let's say I was bringing premade ravioli in sauce…I would have to bring more then 1.4 lbs because the water is already added."

Steve,

I think you are correct. You will find it difficult to meet your daily nutritional needs with 1.4 pounds of non-dry food.

"Hey Mike, Could you give a rundown of the most calorie dence backpacking foods out there: Is it 1oz should be worth 150 calories?"

Jay,

Part of my process of reviewing calorie densities involved putting together a spreadsheet of many popular backpacking foods and calculating Kcals per ounce. I then sorted the list by calorie density to give myself an idea of what foods provide the most energy for the weight.

I'll list some of the items from my spreadsheet:

251 – Olive Oil
170 – Smucker's natural peanut butter with honey
170 – Planters lightly salted cocktail peanuts
160 – Pringles original
150 – Hershey's milk chocolate with almonds
142 – M&M's with peanuts
140 – Mountain House scrambled eggs with ham
135 – Snickers bar
131 – Maruchan ramen noodles
127 – Mountain House beef stroganoff
117 – Balance Bar Gold chocolate peanut butter
114 – Cheddar cheese
110 – Honey Nut Cheerios
105 – BPL gourmet peanut butter fudge
103 – Quaker instant oatmeal maple brown sugar
102 – Tang drink mix
100 – Carnation instant breakfast milk chocolate
100 – Clif Bar carrot cake
100 – Non-fat powdered milk
90 – Sun-Maid raisins
85 – Whole milk mozzarella cheese
70 – Outpost peppered beef jerkey
35 – Soy beans
30 – Bumble Bee tuna
25 – Banana
12 – Apple Sauce

This list is obviously not comprehensive and doesn't include any homemade dishes, just items you can buy at the store. You need a concentration of fats to approach the 140-150 Kcals per ounce average. Even foods that are pure carbs or pure protein can only provide up to around 110 Kcals per ounce. The trick is finding high fat foods other than junk foods. As you can see from my list, candy bars and potato chips are all near the top :-)

Using a combination of foods from my list, I was able to create daily meal plans than provide about 3,000 Kcals per day at a weight of around 21.5 ounces (1.35 pounds). This works out to an average of 140 Kcals per ounce.

I don't mind getting by on dried food for a few days at a time but after a while I crave a 'proper big meal'. This can take different forms. I might take time out from hiking to hunt for rabbit or net fish. I might buy some local produce and have a woodfire to boil potatoes or rice etc.

Rather than preplanning and carrying all my food for a longer trip I rely on providence. I carry a plastic box and try to keep it well supplied with meat, cheese, nuts, dried fruit etc. My golden rule is not to eat more than half of what's left of any item until I can replace it. That way, there's always something in the box at every stop. Supplementing what I carry with what I can find is how I keep the weight low.

It's a moveable feast.

WOW! Thanks Christopher for the great info. I printed it out-

Mike Clelland –

I've done a spreadsheet of the Groovy link and find that it comes to about 3000 calories per day. About 150 calories per ounce, in a large part due to the amount of nuts and oil used throughout the menu.

I can e-mail this to you, or anyone, if your interested.
(I'm am not a "google member".)

Building a menu around 20 ounces a day that does not incorporate that much oil and nuts will leave one a little shy of 3000.

My menu planning comes in at about 125 calories per ounce.
Does anyone else have estimates of their caloric densities?

(raisins are about 20% water)

Greg,

I would love to see your spread sheet

I'll send you my address via PM

eager to check it out, thanks,
M!

our 3000 calorie daily menu came out at 115 cal per ounce, lots of muesli, not too much emphasis on fat other than snickers/ chocolate

"So, let's say I was bringing premade ravioli in sauce…I would have to bring more then 1.4 lbs because the water is already added."

Steve,

I think you are correct. You will find it difficult to meet your daily nutritional needs with 1.4 pounds of non-dry food."

Exactly! :-) Dried food will allow you to bring more food for the weight – and be a lot less bulky as well.
For instance while I enjoy fresh fruit, the better choice is freeze dried versions for carrying. 5 ounces of freeze dried fruit is a LOT. For the weight of one fresh banana you could carry many dried.
And there is a rub as well – freeze dried vegetables and fruit will always be the lightest choice and is worth the extra cost over traditional dried. This is also the case with FD meat over home dried as well.

It can be like was mentioned – lay all your desires out on the counter and then ask if you can come up with subs that weigh less. (For example? If you like chicken or tuna in packets, well dry it at home and it will weigh at least half if not 3/4 less than pouched). That kind of thing helps control food weight.

Well I am definatly the heavyweight of the group. I take 1.9 to 2 PPPPD. I am a large man (6'-2", 235 pounds) and take in between 3,800 and 4,000 calories a day. While this may seem like a large amount of food I know I'll burn around 900 calories an hour backpacking so after 7 hours of hiking. . .

While Bryan and I go fairly light with food by dehydrating and creating our own meals we don't do the ultralight thing. I look at food this way… it adds to the experience and it has to taste good.

Perhaps I am picky but I don't want to have to choke down some salty Ramen-esque meal. I have many recipes that are high caloric enough to be light. Anyway food weight is consumable and gets lighter as the trip goes on. I also won't work off body stores as that can cause muscle wasting and isn't healthy (metabolically speaking).

If I get that concerned about a few hundred grams of food weight out of an entire trip, then I'm going to quit backpacking. Our food weight comes in around 2 lbs a day total (for 3 of us – 2 adults and one child).

Chad – If you go out with 1.9 to 2 PPPPD, and then if you come back with food left over, you've gone too heavy. If you eat it all, then perfect! Question: Do you keep track of this?

– and –

I recognize that 1.4 PPPPD is pretty low, but it works well in the situations I've described. And it was by monitoring the remaining food that got that number. I wouldn't go any lower.

Remember, one 10th of an ounce (0.1 oz) is only 1.6 ounces. Less than the weight of a CLIF bar. Go out for a night or two? No big deal. But, put 12 days of food in your backpack, and that number gets to be important.

(a CLIF bar is 2.4 oz)

The difference between 1.4 POUNDS and 1.6 POUNDS is a scant 3.2 oz. Multiply 3.2 by 12 days and you've got 38.4 oz, that's over two pounds!

A 12 day ration at 1.4 PPPPD = 16.8 pounds

A 12 day ration at 1.6 PPPPD = 19.2 pounds

A 12 day ration at 1.8 PPPPD = 21.6 pounds

A 12 day ration at 2.0 PPPPD = 24 pounds

There is an 7.2 pound spread noted above for these 12 day ration options. That's a lot!

I'll add – – – If you are doing a longer trip, that after 10 or 12 days, you will be needing more calories, and these numbers will need to be bumped up dramatically.

Hey Mike, Thanks again for all the excellent food info. I am kicken myself in the stomach with the all weight I could had saved over the past few hikeing season. I printed out your post. Great stuff and I own your book too!

Interesting thread! As others have mentioned, I've never really thought about the weight or caloric value of my food, I just pack up what I think I'll eat and then some for good measure. I usually bring back quite a pile 'cause my appetite wanes at altitude. What I do actually eat comes to about 1.5 lbs/day I've just discovered after weighing a sample day's menu. I've been taking a little over 2 lbs/day I'd guess.

But the extra has been put to good use on occasion. In September, north of Stevens Pass, I ran into a couple from the UK through-hiking the PCT . They mistakenly thought they'd be able to resupply there but the place has no store or anything, so they were rationing what they had. Since I knew I had way more than I'd need, I laid a pile on 'em and we both felt the better for it!

Another time I was leading a group of college Freshmen on a trip into the Absarokas. Despite the pre-trip planning meeting, one young woman determined to bring a frozen pizza and a bag of chips (not to mention a monumental hangover) as her sole sustenance for the weekend. As I recall, she did enjoy my surplus!

With Mike talking about 12 days without resupply. Some other people not relishing a fatty diet. I would like to suggest the middle way:

take some undehydrated food the first day to eat at lunch. If you wish.
Take good food without more fat than you are used to for days 1,2 3….
Take fat laden food for the rest.

If you only go a few days without resupply you dont need to change your diet. If you go longer the weight will be killing without fat rich food. But the weight of the first days disappears first, so is not so important.

Mike-
I come back with no extra food at 1.9 to 2.0 pounds per day. That being said I always keep a couple of GU energy gels in my kit to deal with low blood sugar as I’m a type 1 diabetic. Over the past 20 years of monitoring my diet and learning about sports nutrition I have been able to fine tune my dietary requirements for my solo backpacking trips without wasting an ounce of food weight.

This is a good time to bring up the simple fact that people need to be very careful when giving out generalized nutritional information without a complete understanding of the subject or who they are giving advice to. Nutrition is a very individual scientific application. Simply put what works for one person may not work for another.

For example a typical three season (temps ranging between 25 and 90 degrees) trail menu for me consists of:
600 g carbohydrate
145 grams protein
80 grams fat

Some people may consider my fat intake to be rather low but the majority of your easily useable energy will come from carbohydrates, not fat. A steady and ample supply of carbohydrates will also allow your body to metabolize stores of body fat most efficiently without experiencing a drop in energy output. I have found this to be very helpful when doing longer (200 plus miles) trips where your caloric needs will go up and your body will start to metabolize fat.

This particular diet works for me, it may not work for you.

We discussed nutrition on the WT3 trip and one of the things Skurka does is take in higher concentration of fats early in the day. IIRC, the fats are burned over the course of the day and never have time to be stored. Ryan J. took good notes on this so maybe he or Andy will chime in. I'm bad about not taking notes for anything.

Realizing what I typed earlier about water weight of food, I meant more along the lines of dry food weights and not added water for eating them.

How much food one needs depends on their physical size and how much hiking they will do in a day. The 1.5 pounds per day may be about right for the average "Joe The Hiker" that is in camp by 4 or 5 PM, but if the hiking miles are big then the food intake should be larger of course.

The goal of my hiking is to have fun, like the foods I brought, and not go hungry.

Chris,
that is interesting, I mean what you say Andrew Skurka does. I have done the opposite on the understanding that while I am walking and just before I start I should be eating ready to digest carbs and I save the fat laden stuff for the evening. Is there any evidence either way?
I imagine that like many things, you can train your body to get better at any task you practice. Allison Miller was suggesting "fat loading" in another thread.