PPPPD (Pounds Per Person Per Day)

[CW]

Derek – I don't know of any anecdotal evidence either direction. Andy actually figured up his caloric intake for one of his past trips and found his percentages of carbs/fat/protein varied in the morning and the afternoon with the mornings being higher in fat. Again, I'm trying to pull all of this out of memory since I don't have notes so I could be off some.

[Chad Miller]

Chris,

What you are saying about eating higher fat foods in the Moring to provide energy throughout the day can be correct. This is assuming that you are also eating enough carbohydrates throughout the day so that your body can more easily metabolize the fat you ate in the morning.

Fat is harder for your body to metabolize so it is beneficial to have a steady supply of glycogen (sugar from carbohydrates) in your system so you can readily use the fat for energy.

[Steven Evans]

Neat…I'm actually weighing and calculating caloritic intake on the foods that I brought on my last 5 day trip and it seems I was eating roughly 22-24 ounces a day at about 2500 – 2800 or so calories. Seems I was going pretty lightweight to begin with. :)

Regarding the 2 pounds for winter. Can I supplement the rest of the weight in the form of M&M's, jerky, and hot chocolate?…I'm not sure how much more I can eat!

Thanks for all the great advice and knowledge…except now I am obsessed. Oh, and thanks Christopher Shive – cool list. Glad to see peanut M&M's on there… i love those things.

[Chad Miller]

For winter I tend to add around 60 grams of fat to my daily menu (540 calories). Please keep in mind that I am a rather warm person so I don't find I need to bump up my food too much in the winter.

[Mike Clelland]

Hey Chad,

You are keeping exacting records, right on for you.

That data is important, and you are rare compared to the majority of campers (even self proclaimed lightweight campers).

If you know what works for you – you're already there!

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

I am the type that eats fat in evening as well. If I eat too heavy of protein and or fat during the day I don't feel well. Carbs I can work on easily.
So at dinner I usually add a Tablespoon or so of olive oil and eat a dessert before bed with fat. When I do that I sleep a lot better as well (stay warmer). Same with protein.
Now, if I don't do that and skip it I sleep cold and wake up feeling run down.
Just me though!

[Roger Caffin]

I prefer carbs in the morning (lots of muesli, a mix in the day ('bread and cheese'!), and some fats at night with lots of carbs.
Digesting fats is 'harder' work, especially at altitude.

Cheers

[Elliott Wolin]

Our experience agrees with 1.4 ppppd. At 1.5 we have just enough with a tiny bit left over, so we usually aim for 1.5 ppppd. At 1.75 we wonder why we brought all the food, and land up carrying a lot out.

At or below 1.5 we tend to run out of the good stuff and have to eat all the not-so-good stuff near the end. This is due to our inability to control ourselves. Problem is, we don't know what we will find "good" and "not-so-good" until we're well into the trip, and it changes from trip to trip. Maybe we need therapy.

Finally, our experience is on trips up to two weeks long.

[Roman Dial]

Some of my observations based on expeditions from the tropics to the arctic, from casual family trips to adventure and wilderness races, from going hungry AND eating dog food, to bringing home food and enjoying it there.

1) Most people seem to start counting calories and eventually go to weight per day; unless they were trained by NOLS

2) My pounds per day depends
on miles per day (pounds per day are a humped function of miles per day)
length of trip (a linearly increasing function of trip length as my body fat runs out)
chilliness of environment (cold and wet I eat more than hot and dry)
purpose of trip (light, fast, and cold or eating for pleasure on a social trip)
balance of fat vs carbs (Olive oil turns my stomach; I am a butter-man)
how much body fat I am starting with

3) I always always always think it's best style to finish with food (one day) as I have been hungry too many times (including a 20 day winter trip with 30 pounds of food in sub zero temps when we ran out of food and went from half rats to no rats to napping when we'd otherwise be snacking); NOLS trips rarely make mistakes by design, and so finishing with no food is expected. The real world can be less predictable, particularly for small groups in wild settings.

4) Be sure to share your food, and always take the smaller portion.

[Lynn Tramper]

We don't run out of food unless we get stuck due to weather or swollen rivers. We plan and pre-pack EVERY meal, so there's no eating too much of the 'good stuff' first. We know before we set out the door what we are having for lunch on our last day, right down to a crumb. We carry an extra day's worth of very light 'calories' for emergencies. A ture 'hard-core' ULer would carry nothing but pure fat!!! For a shorter trip this is fine as long as your not diabetic/hypoglycemic etc…but for most of us, we willingly carry more than the minimum possible food weight because we want to enjoy food and have a more balanced macronutrient intake.

Sailors on the Whitbread around th world sailing race will add a pound of butter/margarine to their diet every day while they are in the Antarctic portion of the race!!! Fat is by far your best source of calories, and fat loading does indeed help your body to more comfortably burn fat for fuel. But most people just plain feel better with some carbs thrown in, plus protein is really needed if you don't want to lose too much muscle.

I can see how 1.4 PPPPD would work in a mixed group of folks who will be covering a known distance each day in known terrain and climate (eg NOLS), but in the real world each individual needs to work it out for themselves. Obviously a 95lb elderly female walking 5 miles per day on good tracks in warm weather will need A LOT less than a 220lb muscular 18 year old man trying to cover 20 miles per day over very rough terrain and cold weather. So I am not really a fan of PPPPD for individuals. It is far more accurate to work out calories needed, as this can be done fairly accurately based on gender, age, BMI and activity level.

For folks like Mike, he has enough experience to guesstimate PPPPD based on his home cooking, without knowing how many calories he is eating. For a beginner, I recommend erring on the high side, as there is nothing that can put a newbie off going hiking again than going hungry on their first trip!

[Roman Dial]

My favorite meal in cool/cold temps for breakfast is cream or wheat, with brown sugar and butter (with other stiff for variety — cherries, almonds, granola). I like fat in AM for its "stick to the ribs" effect.

In warm/hot temps, there's little/no fat in our breakfasts which tend to be either dry or wet but never cooked.

Snack foods in the day tend, for me, to be carbo-based but with fat too (think milk chocolate and pringles or almonds).

Evening meals in all temps tend to be hot and with butter to keep me warm in my bag/sandwich quilt which tends to be a bit thin, or to give my body a chance to digest them for the next days efforts.

I once did a trip that was more than 50% fat (in weight) and just couldn't do it. I had lots of fat left over. It seems that you need some carbs or protein to choke it down. On the Arctic 1000 I tried drinking olive oil and got sick.

I recall someone in the forums here who drank olive oil on some long distance UL trail hike and swore by it — again, it comes down to the fact that anything we put into our bodies is intensely personal by definition, and requires what we favor and don't comes through our own personal expereicnes.

[Lynn Tramper]

OK, we just got back from a "3-day" hike, and I weighed everything. To us, 3 days means three 3 breakfasts, 3 lunches, 6 snacks and 2 dinners plus emergency food. We weighed in at exactly 1.5 PPPPD, and carried out at least half a days worth of extra food, which is what was planned. So I would be more than comfortable with 1.4 PPPPD on a trip where I knew everyone else ate the same amount (or less), and that there was little chance of being delayed for more than a day. I would NOT be happy going out with 1.4 PPPPD if I was the only female amongst lots of young big males with wolfish appetites if I was expected to share my food with them.

It is actually for the above reasons that I no longer share food with anyone other than my partner. That, and like Roman, the fact that I prefer my own cooking to the meal plans that a lot of other folks seem to prefer when I've been hiking with them. I think I was traumatised at a vulnerable age by belonging to university tramping clubs!!

I have seriously been hiking with a pair of dudes who carried nothing but blocks of "Cadbury's Fruit and Nut Milk Chocolate" on a 4-day trip (and tea bags). Blechhhhhhh

[Mike Clelland]

3 days "might" mean two dinners, two b'fasts and 3 lunches, depending on when you start hiking, and when you end the trip. Right?

I work for NOLS and there is a lot of emphasis on group dynamics, and here's what I've learned: I encourage you to share.

Small groups and short trips are easy.

Big groups and long trips are tricky and require a lot of pre-planning, and some real-deal cooperation amoung team-mates.

Wolfish appitites need to be factored into the math when preparing the meals before going into the mountains.

[Lynn Tramper]

>3 days "might" mean two dinners, two b'fasts and 3 lunches, depending on when you start hiking, and when you end the trip. Right?

Of course. If you start after lunch on the first day, and finish before lunch on the third, then you carry a lot less food, but I wouldn't truly call that a '3-day' hike. Anyway, to get my 1.5 PPPPD for this last trip, I divided total food weight by 2.5 as that's how long we were actually walking (*full* day on the first and second days, half day on the last). We could have got away without lunch on the last day (finished ~1pm), but we didn't know that when we packed.

>Big groups and long trips are tricky and require a lot of pre-planning, and some real-deal cooperation amoung team-mates.

Amen. Not my scene though. I am into wilderness, as in I'm happy if I don't see another soul for the entire trip. I am happy to share my knowledge but not my food or sleeping quarters!!! I prefer to save my group dynamics practice for the workplace…

[Mike Clelland]

Alison wrote:
" I am into wilderness… [but] I prefer to save my group dynamics practice for the workplace…"

Mike replies:
Well, the wilderness IS my workplace!

[Lynn Tramper]

>Well, the wilderness IS my workplace!

Fair enough. Then what do you do when you want to get away from work and take a break from coordinating group dynamics?

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

tough one huh? I am not sure how to work that out…

For my next hike, likely this weekend, I am planning a new diet approach.

-no breakfast

-Snacks all day:
100g/360cal Glucon-D mixed with 40oz water x3 = 300g/1080cal
Glucon-D nutri. info. (100g)
Sucrose 50g, Glucose (I think Dextrose) 40g, Calcium 114mg, Phosphorus 57mg, VitaminC 50mg. It says it contains common edible salt so I think I am getting my dose of sodium.

-Dinner:
Peanuts (roasted, salted) x 250g/1460cal approx.
Chocolate x 50g/250cal approx.

600g = 1.32 PPPPD. 2790cal approx. I am not sure if the science behind diet is obvious. I will write a long post on it if people are interested.

may be I can avoid sharing my drink so as to keep a cal count but what to do if someone runs out of water and ask for some? hate that part.. And I am not sure how to explain others why I am not eating Dinner with them. For hike this weekend i guess it will be alright since I know most people very well. I guess I can just say I m experimenting…

[Lynn Tramper]

>-Snacks all day:
100g/360cal Glucon-D mixed with 40oz water x3 = 300g/1080cal
Glucon-D nutri. info. (100g)
Sucrose 50g, Glucose (I think Dextrose) 40g, Calcium 114mg, Phosphorus 57mg, VitaminC 50mg. It says it contains common edible salt so I think I am getting my dose of sodium.

-Dinner:
Peanuts (roasted, salted) x 250g/1460cal approx.
Chocolate x 50g/250cal approx.

The Glucon-D is just sugar water, and not something that I would put in my body in large quantities. It contains no sodium (the common edible salt is jut the phosphorus), but you'll probably get enough sodium from your salted peanuts.

So your proposed diet looks like this to me:

Skip breakfast, then drink sugar all day, then follow with peanuts and chocolate for dinner.

I hope you don't plan on doing a multi-week thru-hike on this diet, as the lack of fiber alone will cause you grief, not to mention the constant spiking of your blood sugar, the lack of other healthful plant compounds (polyphenols, anti-oxidants etc…), the lack of essential fatty acids (such as omega-3), and potassium. Basically you are eating a junk food diet.

[Mike Clelland]

Alison wrote:
"what do you do when you want to get away from work and take a break from coordinating group dynamics?"

My reply:

If I am solo camping, I play with different diet things, so I can test 'em.

And – if I go wit a pal, I play control freak and do ALL the food for everyone. I'm a vegitarian, and I'm no longer a teenager. We usually eat amazingly well, and I have some converts to my groovy-biotic lifestyle!

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

> It contains no sodium (the common edible salt is jut the phosphorus)

I am not sure about that. On the box it specifically states Minerals ( Calcium Phosphate) and common edible salt as ingredients. Also google didnt come up with any common salt containing phosphorus. I think common salt is more likely NaCl.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Edible+salt

>lack of fiber alone will cause you grief
Actually, nuts have a good amount of fiber. Also I am not sure I need fibre during the day as dextrose and sucrose require minimal digestion and are directly absorbed into the blood. I will appreciate any data supporting otherwise.

>not to mention the constant spiking of your blood sugar

As for the problem of insulin resistance, that is real, but exercise is a solution, and exercise is exactly what hikers engage in. Especially if you eat while hiking or immediately after stopping, you should be able to eat very high-glycemic index carbohydrates without problem, since the human growth hormone produced by exercise will overcome the insulin resistance. While not hiking, of course, it is probably best to eat lower-glycemic index carbohydrates.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=22&nid=1168&print=1

>the lack of other healthful plant compounds (polyphenols, anti-oxidants etc…), the lack of essential fatty acids (such as omega-3)

True. I missed those. One solution is to change the dinner to 200gms peanuts + 50gms walnuts. I didnt find convincing data on the benefits of polyphenols but walnuts are good source of all 3.
http://www.walnuts.org/health/superfoods.php

>and potassium
Good call on potassium. I will consult my doctor and take adequate potassium supplements.

>Basically you are eating a junk food diet.
junk food n. A high-calorie food that is low in nutritional value.

I think my diet is pretty balanced in nutrient department. What is your def. of junk food?

Thanks Allison. I love this kind of discussions.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Hope someone finds these links interesting and can provide more insight to the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK1XKQG271TZZ8I
http://www.ific.org/foodinsight/2008/ma/omegasfi208.cfm
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=101

Nutrition calculator with details of fats and Inflammation Factor of foods.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/

[Lynn Tramper]

>I am not sure about that. On the box it specifically states Minerals ( Calcium Phosphate) and common edible salt as ingredients

I dunno. The product is obviously not labelled to international standards with regards to it's complete ingredients and nutritional breakdown, so we can only guess. Anyway, you will be getting plenty of sodium in your salted peanuts and chocolate. I re-read your original post, and it sounds like this is food you would only take for a weekend trip. Is that correct? If so, then total nutritional balance is not a big problem as long as you have enough energy to get you through. Lonnger term, you would be lacking in many vitamins and minerals. Peanuts contain less than half of the essential vitamins, and only a third of the essential minerals needed for long term health. Peanuts are also not a balanced protein (lacking several essential amino acids such as arginine).

>As for the problem of insulin resistance, that is real, but exercise is a solution

Definitely, but again it's not always a question of "what you can get away with" so much as "what is good for you". This is how I distinguish between "junk food" and "good food". Refined sugars are not a part of our evolutionary diet, and they offer pretty much empty calories (as in no vitamins, minerals, fiber etc…). You are young, you are thin, you execise regularly, so why should you worry? Because eating habits formed when you are young can stay with you for life even if you circumstances change.

The paenuts are fine in moderation, the chocolate is fine in moderation, the energy drink is fine in moderation, but to rely on just those three foods alone is not balanced except in the sense of the energy it supplies. Instead of walnuts, try adding some whole grains, dried fruits, maybe even some dairy if you can tolerate it. The dairy proteins balance the peanut's proteins, the dried fruit is great for potassium, vitamin A, etc…and the whole grains add more fiber. You don't *need* fiber to absorb your sugar drink, you *need* it for overall intestinal health. Peanuts have some fiber, but even at 250g you will be falling short of the optimal amount of fiber.

Now, if you REALLY want to pack a calorie punch into your hike, try eating macadamia nuts instead of peanuts. LOTS more calories per 100g!!!! If you are just out for a weekend, eat whatever you like and enjoy the outing. If you ever plan on doing a longer, thru-hike style trip, then you could think about refining your diet. Mike's groovy-biotic diet is well balanced and tasty.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Thanks Allison for for sharing your expertise on the subject.

For dairy proteins I am thinking of going with skim powdered milk.. mixed with some instant breakfast powder for minerals/vitamins. Do you have any better idea?

>fibre
peanuts have 9gfibre/100g comparable to most whole grains eg rolled oats have 10gfibre/100g. unless I am getting significantly more fibre from some particular whole grains (may be I missing something?) I dont want to skew my calorie ratio…

>the dried fruit is great for potassium, vitamin A
True. Actually prunes look interesting. With low fat/cal content they could work for breakfast. They are also rich in dietary fibre too.

edit: Well it turns out prunes simply dont provide enough vitA. Dried apricots are much better then prunes.

Edit:

>omega-3
I am thinking of adding 2tbsp flax seed.

Revised plan:
Breakfast: Dried Apricots x100g
Snacks: Glucon-D x200g
Post exercise: Skimmed milk x25g/breakfast powder x35g
Dinner: Peanuts x200g, 2bsp flax seeds
Desert: Chocolate, may be a snicker bar or M&M.

>macadamia nuts
They looked great till I found that they have 3 times less proteins then peanuts.

[CW]

If you go with flax make sure it's ground. Your body won't digest whole seeds and you'll get nothing from them.

[Angela Zukowski]

Hufeza – why dry skim milk instead of whole? I would think the higher fat content would be more appealing, despite the shorter shelf life.

I also throw in some protein powder along with my instant breakfast mix… not really sure if that is overkill though, since the breakfast mix already has protein.

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