Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

[kevin davidson]

Two, no, three things, Ryan–
1. The vest I don’t see as something always or even mostly worn–I would put it in the Base Weight ( as I did the Wisp Windshirt). I know, you are clinging to sub 5 like a snow leech ;-)>

2. I don’t think the vest gives as much bang for the weight as the windshirt. Snowcave digging pro, blocking wind to make the MW layer more useful as thermal insulation, etc.

3. The vest w/ a shell and the MW shirt would be a killer combo if you decided to ditch sub5. A highly versatile and lightweight combo in any season–and w/ the VB jacket, da bomb for low temp. UL Winter travel.

have you noticed that only 3.2 oz. seperates our 2 lists when added as pre-food/ water/fuel skinout weights?

[Ryan Faulkner]

#1 this is what I wear, why would you not? with the full zip, it is easially ventilated.

#2 I find that a vest used alone, dose almost nothing for insulation, but when used in a layering system, it is crucial to keep the central body heat up. and isint the VB jacket, windproof for digging?

#3 Thanks.

I want to make sure you understand that I beleive your system could work great, but I am just saying, mine will work great too, and it is truly SUL.

[kevin davidson]

Different experiences, Ryan. The vest would be in my pack a good deal of the time.

Even w/ the vb jacket–I would want to wear a full sleeved, hooded shell when diggin’ me shelter. Yar.

But it’s ok not to agree on everything and it’s cool to have 2 different approaches to the same problem—this isn’t mathematics, it’s much, much more subjective.

I think we are close to having other people weigh in. Whadyaya think?

Is it sub5 or sub6 or a mix?

[Ryan Faulkner]

Is the VB not full sleeved?

I would just like to mention that My hat has a goretex shell

yes, two options is good, so let me change gears.

Vote for me! :-)

[kevin davidson]

Electioneering, eh? Ryan–you’ve been living around D.C. too long.
Hopefully, we will hear what the silent majority thinks. May the better list ( or some combination thereof) “win”.

cheers!

[Ryan Faulkner]

a new page already, wow they just keep on coming.

Well, KD, the last 6 or 7 pages have been mostely me and you, and even though 90% of the time we were disagreeing, it has been great to talk to you. I hope RJ appreciates all this time we spent. but I am sure what ever gear Ryan takes he will survive, and even be comfoatable. (my list is just lighter :-P)

[Ryan Faulkner]

here is the two options for Jordans winter SUL trip. chose wisely

Ryans sub 5 list

Kevins sub 6 list

[kevin davidson]

Fat and sassy— Sub6

Lean and mean— Sub5

What will it be, boys and girls?

Hilarious, Ryan —greatminds think (sometimes) alike.

[Michael Martin]

KD writes:

>> The goal is to provide a thermal “sandwich”…My solution includes Reed Pants below the belt and a Golite Ether windshirt.

I’m kind of puzzled by this — especially the Reed pants. What layers do you envision in the “sandwich” under various conditions?

Thanks,

-Mike

[Peter McDonough]

The point of the dead air space is to prevent convection currents sense the individual fibers don’t conduct heat themselves. If these holes are covered, convection is occurring anyway, and moving around would not significantly affect the insulating factor. We keep the holes comparively small because large holes(like those in big inflatble air mattresses) created air currents large enough to reduce the insulation factor. That is why drilling out 3/8″ holes in the pad is a viable option.

[kevin davidson]

I’m really not trying to be obtuse, Michael. :-)
By the way, I changed out the Reed Pants in favor of Montane Featherlights because in the conditions RJ will be facing only the VB clothing needs to be “non-breathable”. It was also important to incorporate a pair of LW shell pants that have at least partial side zips to get them on and off over footwear. And still only 4 oz.

Various layering possibilities for “below the belt” over the VB pants:
Featherlights over MW tights over VB
MW tights alone over VB
Cocoon Pants over MW tights over VB
Featherlights over Cocoon Pants over tights over VB

I think this allows RJ a lot of options to help dial in his comfort levels.

Again, the MW tights or whatever layers that are used over the VB pants will be protected and made
more efficient by being protected ( from wind, flailing about in the snow, whatever) by the outer shell pants.

Hope this makes sense.
Signing off from the Web and this thread for the night.

Cheers.

[Ryan Faulkner]

Mabey have cocoon pants and VB and tights worn, and pack the Featerlight pants.

how tight is the VB, are you sure he could wear them under a tight?

what about the 2.4oz montbell UL wind pants instead of featherlights

but I still like the layering system with VB pants, MW tights, and some sort of wind shell (U.L. wind or featherlights) with insulating pants packed (cocoon pants or down knickers)

[Bob Gabbart]

Are the wind pants going to be durable enough to live in most of the time? Pants like that allways seem to tear on me, snagged when climbing over a fallen tree or the like. What if we layer light weight soft shell pants over the VB for durability. Like Couldveil Inertia pants.

Bob

[kevin davidson]

Bob, I own a pair of the Featherlights and they are amazingly tough for the weight. I’m comfortable in recommending them.

Ryan, I prefer windpants ( or any other kind of shell pants) with ankle or side zips for taking on and off shoes/boots in Winter ( and it was my mistake for not going that direction, earlier. The Insulated pnats/knickers should, I think, count towards base weight. They will very often be in the pack during actual travel ( taken out at rest stops and camp, mostly) . I suspect that the Featherlights are a bit tougher than the Montbells.

[Ryan Faulkner]

so final leg layering system is VB pants, MW tights, and featherlights worn and insul pants packed.

[kevin davidson]

that’s what I suggest.
mea culpa.

[Ryan Faulkner]

is RJ going to cook in his cave?
I havent used a snow cave so I dont know if this is what you do, but if he dose, than he may not need the 1oz candle to heat it up.

[kevin davidson]

RF— circumstances could dictate that he cook in the cave if conditions were grave. He will probably be building caves, just large enough for shelter with good protection. I hope that he can if necessary build large enough to cook in, safely (vents).

Anyway, in snowcave living, you keep a candle lit to warm up the cave. Simply cooking will not keep a cave “warm”—the relative warmth will dissipate. one needs to maintain a long lasting source of heat
(although it does not need to be a very strong source of heat especially in a small cave).

I have seen “15 hr”candles that weigh about 1 oz. each. They never last that long but I think we could provide about 16-18 hr. of candle time (enough for 2 nights and a small reserve) for about 1.5 oz. I’m going to modify my list accordingly.

[kevin davidson]

Once again, Wed. Dec. 7, is the deadline to present the good Dr. Jordan with his Winter SUL March o’ Death Gearlist. People should either choose one or else we will have to let RJ choose or borrow from each.

Links to 2 lists here (There are others on this thread, but their originators should provide links)—

Sub5

Sub6

The sub 6 lb. list that I have been working on is newly updated–see bottom of list for changes log.
The Skin Out Base Weights ( base pack weight + worn) of the 2 lists are (I believe) about 4 or 5 oz. apart.

RF, don’t you think we should let him have some sort of knife/tool for this trip? Field repairs and all that, you know.
The joys of web access in developed rec. areas. Skiing has been great.

[Ryan Faulkner]

I changed canister, added knife, moved sunscreen to worn. and shaved those candles down to 1.4oz total ;-)

“the greatest comfort is a light pack”

P.S. whats wrong with RJ choosing for himself, people have had their chances to comment on the gear and I think RJ should get to choose what gear he will take, as long as he dosent choose your list, JK ;-)

[Bob Gabbart]

Why is sunscreen not in the base pack weight in both lists? Seems like it should be.

[Bob Gabbart]

Why is sunscreen not in the base pack weight in both lists? Seems like it should be.

[Ryan Faulkner]

RJ is 5’8″ right?

well a 5’10” arc ghost is anoly 14oz compared to 16oz of the X but they have the same fill weight, the only difference is the X has a heavier nylon. so why not Ryan usse a ghost instead of x to save 2oz but still have the same warmth?

[Bob Gabbart]

Ryan,

There is more of a difference. The Arc X has a wider girth (same dimensions as the Arc Alpinist) so it should be able to better accommodate the Cocoon Belay Jacket under it. Also, I don’t think Ryan has a Ghost and it would be expensive to buy a new Arc bag.

Bob

[Ryan Faulkner]

OK, but I am changing the bivy weight to 3.6oz. have you seen the new vapor bivies? Ryan says his is 3.6oz

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