Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

[paul johnson]

theoretically:
why Ti? is strength really necessary? gas fuel bottles are not pressurized very much, right. so, i would think Al is more appropriate since it’s lighter than Ti.

practically:
are they actually manufacturing Ti bottles that are lighter than Al bottles? if so, they must be very thin walled to be lighter than Al.

[Richard Nelridge]

Paul,

What MSR produced, and what most Titanium we use for backpacking including our hiking poles (like Leki) and cookware – (such as our Snow Peak, Evernew, and MSR Titanium Cookware)is actually an alloy of Titanium and Aluminum. Adding the Titanium results in a product that is stonger and can be thinner and thus lighter than the like item it all Alluminum.

Therefore the MSR Titan (Titanium) Fuel bottles are actually lighter than the same volume in Aluminum.

Rich

[paul johnson]

this post is NOT to address the ethics of fires above treeline. so then, what is this post for?

this post is to validate young RyanF’s excellent memory:

here is an excerpt from a much earlier Post in this Thread. Note that the author of this “quoted” Post is responding to another’s Post:

POSTED BY
Ryan Jordan
(ryan – BPL STAFF – M) SUBJECT Re: Re: re.Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge ON 10/19/2005 13:53:14 MDT POST REPLY

>> also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.

I’m a competent cookfire builder. If y’all decide for me to ditch the stove, I would do that, you know, for the purposes of … research :)

—- end of quoted post —-

seems like he would descend below treeline to collect natural fuel and possibly cook there also or just use the fire for warmth req’d for survival.

[kevin davidson]

Absolutely right, Paul—Sigg .6 Liter bottle (alum.)
comes out at 3.5 oz. –same size , same weight.
Ti was included because R. has/had it.

[paul johnson]

Richard,

i’m very familiar with both Ti and Al from working in the aircraft industry. i’m just surprised that in such a low strength application that Ti is used. Al is lighter than Ti and i would have thought (apparently incorrectly) that an all Al fuel bottle with thin walls would be strong enough. a Ti alloy (e.g. 6Al4V or another alloy) bottle would have to have pretty thin walls to be lighter than an all Al bottle. perhaps there’s some legal regulations concerning strength related matters that govern manufacturing in this area?

[Richard Nelridge]

Kevin,

Actually that is not correct. The 13.5 oz MSR Titan (Titanium) Fuel Bottle with the cap had a spec of 3 oz (85 g). Backcountry equipment who use to sell them had a confirmed weight of 2.8 oz with the cap.

Here is a link:

http://tinyurl.com/8uvoc

Rich

[Ryan Faulkner]

thanks Paul,

I am just saing that if Ryan is willing to cook over fires then we could save some weight from a stove and use it for warmer clothes or something( so he wont die :-)>)

[Richard Nelridge]

Paul,

As I said, the Titan (Titanium) Fuel Bottles were discontinued. Perhaps due to cost, perhaps problems due to thinner walls. But, I do know that they were lighter as the previous post to Kevin.

Rich

[paul johnson]

Thanks Richard. I sure would love to see one of those. The walls must be very thin indeed!! –and still stronger than an Al bottle. If you know it, off the top of your head (since i’m too lazy right now to search the Web or the Forums – read it somewhere recently), what is the wt of an empty Coleman PowerMax canister (very thin, crushable Al)? if you (or Kevin, or anyone else) don’t know it, then i’ll look it up. many thanks.

[kevin davidson]

Paul– Perhaps I’m missing your point. I’m not concerned about Ryan the Elder having brought up woodfires earlier in the thread. I applaud Ryan F. for remembering the earlier post–
but I had not forgotten it. I was down on the idea from 1st mention (see earlier posts, somewhere back there).
I don’t want to fall back on wood for reasons of
–wilderness ethics– I had hoped this would be a leave only piss and footprints kind of undertaking.
— I would like R. to be self contained. I think it is more consistant with UL philosophy.
–it isn’t practical/safe to use in a snow cave if forced to cook inside in inclement weather.

I can see that to some it would be an attraction to lower carried fuel weight by means of using found resources. The romance of woodcraft. But, I think,
not all is fair in the pursuit to sub-5. Maybe we don’t make sub-5.

Finally, if this gearlist is supposed to be something that can be emulated, please make it one that can applied to winter travel in say Yosemite or Kings Cyn. Nat’l Parks where woodfires are banned in many places, not only above timberline but in many places below.

Please, lets drop this option and focus on the stoves and other aspects of the gear list. Please?

[Richard Nelridge]

Paul,

The 10.6 oz fuel bottle weighs about 3.03 oz and the 6 oz bottle weighs about 2.4 oz.

Rich

[kevin davidson]

Richard, sometimes you just can’t trust Ryan’s specs.;-)> which is where I got the Titan weight from.

However, I had measured my own aluminum Sigg .6 L bottle.
99 g— 3.5 oz.

[paul johnson]

Kevin,

i saw your earlier Posts on the subject when i was looking for Dr. J’s earlier Post. i totally agree with the “Points” you just made on why wood fires are not a subject for further discussion in this Thread. good thinking. i share the same goals as you for Dr. J’s Adventure. as stated in a much earlier post of mine – i hope to duplicate Dr. J’s gearlist for my own purposes. wood fires would NOT be my primary source (even in the NE) of fire.

as to “memory” – that was addressed to young RyanF just to let him know that he rememberd correctly since it seemed he was, perhaps(?), doubting his memory at that point. that’s all that was intended. sorry for the confusion.

[Richard Nelridge]

Kevin,

I knew (I knew you were not at fault) where the weight came from, but I didn’t confirm Ryan’s Spec. It seemed a bit high to me but, I finally went back to the Backcountry Equipment Website for confirmation.

Rich

[paul johnson]

Thanks Richard. appreciate the info. i’m going to add it to a file that i have, so i won’t have to ask you again.

[kevin davidson]

If I were in your neck of the woods Paul, I would gladly build a cookfire and probably a bonfire, too, if travelling w/ a group. I have fond memories of a ski-pack trip in the Whites, some years back, where the mob of us built a Winter Solstice blaze that slowly melted a crater 4 or 5 feet deep. Most impressive and a wonderful social focus.

And thank you for your gracious demeanor.

[jacob thompson]

Once again I will begn by saying that I have zero Winter Hiking and especially VBL. I think that would be a cause for dehydration in australia. But I will ask. Is there any light rainwear such as the Dropstoppers that allows breathability when worn the right way in but creates a VBL when inside out? I have no idea baout the fabrics except what DrJ wrote in his papers. But it seems that if water can go one way but not the other than it would work as a VBL.

[Ryan Faulkner]

very interesting question Jacob.

I think the montbell Breeze dry tec jacets are supposed to be very breathable but still wind proof so if worn inside out may serve as a VBL layer???????

[Michael Martin]

Jacob writes:

>> …that allows breathability when worn the right way in but creates a VBL when inside out

I don’t believe this technology exists yet. There are denier gradient fabrics which wick better in one direction than the other. There is also a wool-based fabric in the works which increases air permeability as it accumulates moisture. But, as far as I know, no current WP/B fabric has the capability you want. Although, many are so pitifully breathable that they may serve as effective vapor barriers when worn normally. :-(

[Ryan Jordan]

Ryan wrote: >> I’d take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.
Mike M wrote: > Are you talking about the 1/8″ or 3/8″ thinlights here?

A 1/4, actually. I mistakenly called it a thinlight (a gossamer gear product). The 1/4 is available from OwareUSA.com.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Perhaps a Gossamer Gear G5 Hyperlight (7 oz.) would really be more appropriate— or even a more robust pack that could take having snowshoes strapped to it without worries of self-destructing.

Northern Lites snowshoes can easily be strapped onto a G5 and it’s tough enough fabric, and the snowshoes are “mild” enough that they won’t get in a fight. I’m not worried about any snowshoe-spinnaker conflicts with the NL’s.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Finally, I’m a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow. Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> if he’s spending most of his time above timberline, it’s poor wilderness practice. It’s a Western thing—you folk in the East may not appreciate it.
If this was a in the woods sort of trip, it would be an appropriate option.

I think one night, if not both, and certainly part of the days, will be spent near enough to trees that I should be able to do a fire if necessary and in good stewardship. Even in the deepest of snows near treeline, you can always get creative and find swales etc where you can dig down into the ground and do a LNT fire.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Ryan the Elder

Good grief, KD!

“Ahhh dude, Mister Turtle is my FATHER.” – Crush the Very Cool Sea Turtle, in Finding Nemo, in response to Nemo’s dad addressing him.

[Michael Martin]

Ryan writes:

>> as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow.

Mystery solved! Thanks, Ryan.

If I may be so bold as to paraphrase you in geek speak…

With a longer boil time, the pot loses more heat energy to the environment, lowering fuel efficiency. Theoretically, an ideal stove would transfer all of its heat to the pot (without wasting flame heating up the air around the pot) in the shortest amount of time possible.

I don’t use white gas, so I can’t do a comparison test. But, in my experience, the Coleman Xtreme Powermax stove does not suffer from the canister cooling problem. So, based on the BTU/oz of the fuels, and general stove design, I’d expect fuel efficiency comparable to or greater than white gas with this stove.

fwiw, I budget 40g (1.4 oz) of fuel per liter to boil water from snow with my Xtreme. But, thats below 7000ft and usually above 15 degrees or so in North Idaho.

I wonder if we could get comparable efficiency out of a stove-on-top canister stove with a suitable windscreen, or copper wire heat exchanger….Hmmm, back to the lab…

PS – much of this winter stove stuff has been previously discussed on this thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/33/

also take a look at R. Caffin’s article:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/msr_simmerlite_vs_coleman_xtreme.html

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