Thoughts on new REI EVRGRN line, catalogs, offers and light polluting tents…

I'll stipulate that I hate loud music being broadcast while I'm hiking or camping in the wilderness, and all the rest. Or I would, if it had ever happened. I understand that other people have had these experiences.

This whole thread reminds me of George Carlin's words from his famous routine " A place for my stuff"..

"Have ever noticed everyone else's stuff is sh_t, and YOUR sh_t is STUFF?!..lol

I don't like bright lights and loud music when I am trying to sleep, but I DO NOT prescribe to the "My Private Idaho" mentality on PUBLIC lands.

IMHO ,if somebody is doing anything unlawful or violating park rules,shoot a video of it and make sure a ranger sees it,ASAP. It's about all you can do.(

Eyeshades and foam earplugs are cheap pretty light..:)

It would be funny if there was a message board some place where those likely to use these lighted tents, were complaining about how they hate campers with Cuben tarps, as "those a-holes usually get up before sunrise and make all kinds of crinkle noises as they pack up their stupid tarps and Polycryo ground cloths".

Lol. Backpacking heavy. I wake up reslly early for work, so on the trail I always wake up well before sunrise but hang around till first light. On one occasion, after packing up, I had a neighboring camper ask me if I'd share the potato chips I had woken them up from munching on earlier in the morning. So, I guess the Cuben crinkle sounds like a chip bag!

And, all I did was state my opinion on the underlying but obvious other side to the thread just like everyone else who has stated theirs, but I was attacked because someone didn't like it. An opinion is an opinion, so why can't I share mine? Simply because you didn't like my wording. Oh well. Forgive and forget or whatever phrase fits in here.

Here at BPL it's good to know when to just shut the computer off and chill. Once your emotions get the better of you, you're going to make posts you'll regret. I know because I've done it myself.
However, I will not delete a post, no matter what.

Daniel Boone once said that when he could smell the smoke of another man's campfire, he knew it was time to move on. And that's about all you can do when it comes to annoying campers.. MOVE ON. It's like JR said, you're not going to change anybody.

I try to backpack in the less popular National Forest and BLM areas where I know I'll see few to no people. These aren't the NP gems that provide the most spectacular scenery, but being away from people is paramount for me. You may have to deal with trails that aren't as well maintained, but that's ok.

On another note, there's an older YouTube video I've watched numerous times entitled "Ultralight Backpacking Rant". In the video, the guy talks about how he used to manage an outdoor store and how he hated to deal with ultralight backpackpackers. He says UL hikers have a "pompous *sshole aura" and many are "socially awkward." (I thought gee, this guy must be talking about me).
He describes being at AT shelters and ULer's looking at his traditional gear and saying in a snotty tone: "oh, well you need this this and this" (I've found myself doing that). He then poses the question: "have any of you noticed that most ultralight backpackers are *ickheads?"
This kind of talk rubs people here at BPL the wrong way, but I still think we should all be able to take criticism and see other people's point of view. I believe it's a small percentage of ULer's who are arrogant, but they ARE out there.

You don't have to leave BPL to find these UL attitudes.

Roger edited out xxxx from my previous suggestions, nuff said.

Our precious snowflakes say BA selling a tent with a light will destroy their night vision, block all the stars, and ruin the outdoors forever.

Just offering a tent for presale on BPL was more than sufficient to threaten the keystone of their self worth.

Since hardening up is out of the possibilities, next time a group of heavy weight hipsters invades your elite UL camp, cry yourself a river and move downstream.

"I like to see the stars and hear nature, and I fear that experience is in danger here, that's all."

Seeing the stars and hearing nature are absolutely at risk, but not by tents with lights or people with music IMO. There are bigger battles to be fought against those who would literally destroy our air quality with pollution, log our forest lands, and give protected lands back to the states. We need like minded individuals to help us win that fight. The real fight. If REI can get glampsters, hipsters, and whoever else in the back country I am more than willing to over look lights on tents. Maybe we sacrifice a little of our experience now to insure our experience 20 years from now? I dunno. Random thoughts of a tree hugger.

"Didn't Ryan J. JUST ask people not to be so abusive on this site?" – Who is Ryan J.? I've not seen him post here before.

Ryan

I hope you all spend the rest of your lives unable to get completely comfortable every time you lay down for bed and you always have that feeling of a pebble being in your shoe.

Do you feel the anger now?! ; )

I've already got that feeling of having a pebble in my shoe. Comes from spinal nerve damage. Nyah nyah ;)

Then I hope your nose is forever runny and you're packs never quite fit right!

Enjoy the suffering!!

;^)

+1 Ryan. Getting people into the parks, even the wilderness, at all, is a win. Most of those people will then be willing to stand up for environmental issues, or at least wilderness issues of far greater import than the quibbles we're considering. Hey, Yosemite Valley is a zoo most of the year. But "those people" are likely to back help for parks as a whole as a result of having been there. And so on.

In my experience glampers don't like carrying backpacks. They're just not much of a problem.

Yeah, REI's marketing director(s) must spend a lot of time shopping in Malibu where a simple dress shirt tops $200.

It's about selling and $$$ and REI stores and catalogs reflect where the money is going.

But hey, yoga, done right, is great exercise, as is Hacky Sac and net sports.

Our Henderson, NV REI is in the trendy "The District" outdoor mall. (We're talking Anthropologie, Williams Sonoma. Whole Foods (Paycheck), The Loft, etc. So by necessity they sell a lot of yoga mats and col clothing for those wanting to look "sporty".

But they also sell a lot of bikes and backpacking gear as well (and not just to me ;o). so like others posting here I say JUST GET PEOPLE OUTDOORS, even if it's in a local park or bike trail.

I think REI could definitely sell true ultralight or "fast and light" gear. Instead of the stuff they market as such. They would obviously need to limit they're "cover everything including being mauled by a bear" warranty for these items because of inexperienced users, but even a limited warranty would suffice for most people I believe.

I feel like they would sell a TON of said gear to the average joe backpscker purely because it would be the next cool thing. So, they would make their money and people such as those here on BPL would also have an alternative to cottage business, AND it would help those who struggle with pack weight to be able to try out the UL side of things without the anxiety of buying from a cottage. That is, if REI offered a simple manufacturer materials and workmanship defect warranty along with a short term "trial" period in which they could return said items if in like new condition. Win/win/win if you ask me.

I think that could bring balance to the universe. Lol

I can hike in yoga pants but I can't yoga in hiking pants. Honestly, I'm glad REI has an increasing selection of yoga pants (and running shorts and tights), because they are more multi-purpose than those zip-off monstrosities. I would be so happy if companies would start making hiking pants without a million zippered cargo pockets.

Trails are an extension of civilization, not an escape from it. If you really wanna escape the light and noise pollution, you gotta get waaay off the trail.

If you don't like REI's marketing strategies, go to Canada and check out MEC. I find them more low-key than REI, less "glampy"–plus their prices are usually better, and their house-brand products are generally very well-made. Of course, I'd guess Canada has many more campers-per-capita than the States. Fewer people, more woods, and better employee benefits…

Some of the BA tents are constructed of fairly feathery material… I wonder what REI's return experience is with those things.

I am for the cottage guys staying cottage, and I'd imagine they feel the same way.

I would hate it if Zpacks went corporate and Joe V lost his ability to work directly with his consumers, to do custom work and to tweak his product immediately when he or somebody on BPL or elsewhere discovered a way to improve a design. And his return policy is already quite fair, as are those of pretty much all the cottage folks in general.

All strictly MHO of course.

I agree with you Mr. Moulder. I was thinking more along the lines of the big guys incorporating some of the lighter materials into their designs. More silnylon or even cuben tents and even packs. I guess it really isn't needed though. It would just be nice to be able to get an off the shelf product without the wait. That is, if you don't need a custom job and the off the shelf product fits your needs. Know what I mean?

Seems that Sierra Designs is attempting to do this with the Tensegrity tent and some the clothing items, etc., in their Elite line of products. Bringing Andrew Skurka onboard suggests they are serious about developing this niche, and if it works then others will certainly follow.

Backpacking gear in general already is WAY lighter than back in the Dark Ages when I had a Kelty Tioga and a Eureka Timberline and a 5-lb sleeping bag. In that context, an Osprey pack, a BA tent and a Marmot sleeping bag ain’t half bad.

As far as the wait time with some cottage gear makers, it’s just something I factor into the process and live with what I’ve been living with, adjusting my expectations for their busy season and ordering in the summer stuff I want for winter.

I'm with you, Richie S. Just because someone might want to experience the outdoors differently than you doesn't make their experience less allowable or valid. I practice ultralight backpacking and sometimes I even bring my Mt. Glo LED light string from Big Agnes. I appreciate the all-over interior lighting it offers for times in my tent where having a headlamp on would be impractical. Also, if REI's marketing gets more and more people into the outdoors to experience our state and national parks, maybe that will positively influence the political support needed to protect the parks from development and privatization. Be courteous both in the outdoors and every day life. All will be good.

It's what we do here, although I would say "analyze" rather than "judge." UL requires a stringent review of each and every item that goes out with us. The goal is to find the most elemental, high performance, lightest items that will do the job. The whole UL concept is iconoclastic at its core and when we see something that is ridiculous, it catches our attention. We eschew (love that word) the useless, the superfluous, the unnecessary. The bottom line is that gadgets=weight, not to mention detracting from the wilderness experience. IMHO, the whole gadget mindset is anti-environment. REI is guilty of promoting crap that just creates junk for next year's yard sale and adds to manufacturing pollution and toxic landfills. They really should knock it off.

I am tired and grumpy…so I will chime in with another +1 with Elisa, Willie et all. I think Willie said it best, and I am paraphrasing here, but if you are out to be in nature and end up at a party, you are doing it wrong. If one hikes in three miles off a road and complains about others ruining the outdoor experience for them, well, hike further. I see no problem with people having a lighted up tent. I don't go to REI but from most accounts it's a good store with decent products. Again, unless something really is a problem, let's not have a problem with it.

#ERROR!

"let me watch a movie on their ipad." Movie on an iPad? Philistines. I carry a projector and screen. Now THAT'S how you watch a movie in the woods.

Projected on the side of your Humvee, of course ;)

Disclosure: The following is from an elitist ultralight backpacker. Some people really do seek out the wilderness experience and they feel that's better achieved by carrying less stuff. This is backpackinglight.com by the way. There's nothing I hate worse than to be out on the trail and to come across a spoiled, loud American who doesn't respect other backpackers. In their mind it's all about ME ME ME! When I see them struggling along the with their heavy packs, I think to myself: "you're clearly stupid"! I identify with the mountain lion in that I try to steer clear of people as much as possible. When I see a hiker approaching I first want to know whether or not they have an unleashed dog. 9 out of 10 dog owners control their animals, but there's always that 10% who lets their unleashed mutt run up to you and maybe sniff, maybe growl or maybe even bite. The dog owner never stops to consider that many people have had bad dog experiences and when they see a dog trotting toward them they aren't put to ease because the owner says "oh he's ok". The last time I got bitten, the dog owner said "oh my God he's never done that before"! My response was that there's a first time for everything. Now a dog gets a face full of OC if it gets too close and growls. The materialistic values of our society can clearly seen out on the trail. It's like "I can't wait to post these camping pics on Facebook, my friends will be so impressed. Are we having fun yet?"

one of my least favorite things about BPL, is there is often an "elitist" sentiment that the outdoors can only be enjoyed one way, the BPL way IMO, this is not generally true. If you can find some rare, specific examples, I'd like to see them. What you do find are people objecting to behavior and practices that impinge upon their wilderness experience (as opposed to big public campgrounds, where all bets are off). For instance, if you were in a really beautiful place in the Sierra enjoying a quiet, golden moment and watching some rare animal activity, and some a-hole came up to your spot with a boom-box blaring gangsta rap and ruined your experience, I'm pretty sure you would object. That is an extreme example, but there are some people who object to any kind of amplified noise in this situation. If some kids were smoking weed across the lake from you and ripping and roaring until 3am, I bet you would object. The same goes for light pollution. I was once in a valley in the High Uintas on a moonless night, and it was for me and my mates an extremely rare opportunity to observe the night sky at 11,000 ft elevation with zero light pollution on the horizon. The sky was simply amazing, with the Milky Way painting a distinct swath across the sky, as I had never seen it before. If some moron had been there putting on a LED light show with his tent, there would have been a serious problem. Quite frankly, I think the vastly dominant view here is that nobody cares if you want to hump an 80-lb pack with a toaster oven inside and cover 3 miles a day as long as you're not bothering anyone. But, as has been mentioned ad infinitum, when you're on Backpacking LIGHT you can expect that to be a major topic of discussion. Nonetheless, there's the occasional UL-hating troll who likes to wade in like a crazy street preacher and tell people they're doing it all wrong, that speed hiking and FKTs should be outlawed, and imply that you're some kind of candy-ass if you don't go out 3 weeks at a time without resupply. For every newcomer here (myself included, a couple of years ago) I have never failed to see experienced folks generously step up and offer advice on specific gear for specific locations and seasons, always conscious of budget constraints and other factors.