Thoughts on new REI EVRGRN line, catalogs, offers and light polluting tents…

REI is going where the money is. there is more money in getting new people to buy gear for "comfort camping" then our style of backpacking.

I've watched the climbing section at my local REI shrink and shrink as the "casual trendy clothes" section keeps on increasing. They have a whole aisle dedicated to Yoga now. An aisle for just camp games; frisbee, bochee ball, etc.

We're not their target demo-graph anymore

I've noticed it and I think its ridiculous. It seems the same types I see buying into this crap (evrgrn and poler gear) have no knowledge of "leave no trace". They just made shit more stylized and turned snuggies into hipster wearable sleeping bags. Im coming across more trashed places that are more connected to douchebag/yuppie/hipster campers than hillbillies. I lot of the people I've seen in REI look more like "I'm buying $1000 worth of gear to try out backpacking" rather than people like us.

"If you build it they will come" turns into "if you build a giant retail machine, it must be fed."

The useless gadget side of the outdoor industry is shameful. Most of that stuff will just gather dust on basement shelves and end up in a landfill. REI is guilty, no doubt about it.

Along with the gadgets, REI is carrying a lot of gear for travel and other outdoor sports like cycling, running, skiing, and kayaking that simply wasn't part of their offerings in the 1970's. They handle more casual clothing too I think.

I recall the numbers have shifted and the upcoming generation isn't backpacking as much. Am I correct? Anybody have the stats on that?

I wonder how it all breaks down to people participating in gear-centric activities and the need to have all this "stuff" to go play outside. Buy a bike and you can run up hundreds to outfit it– helmet, lights, luggage, gadgets, tools, etc etc. You can drop $400-$500 on a BASEBALL BAT. Get into motorcycles, ATV's, snowmobiles, or God help us, BOATS, and the cash register rings continuously. Poor old Henry Thoreau is sitting on a cloud in Heaven, shaking his head :)

They will keep selling gear specific to backpacking. They aren't requiring you to spend X number of dollars to retain your membership. Why should we care what else they are selling?

If they can make extra money from selling car roof racks and yoga pants, that will only help us by offsetting price hikes on other gear.

Besides, the more people who go car camping means they aren't in the actual backcountry cluttering up our trails. And we all know that backcountry trails BELONG to UL'ers. We are the only ones worthy.

REI now has a full-fledged "Glamping" gear category on their site. Apparently un-ironically.

I also really hope to never have a dark wilderness night spoiled by one of these illuminated tents. They've been marketing them heavily and for me it's still just – "Why?"

Edit: RE: luxury goods offsetting the price of other gear. That's a nice thought, but hundreds of years of experience with capitalism suggests otherwise. If there is room for more profit, REI will take advantage of it.

Good point about offsetting the price Andrew, I hope it helps lower our prices

Yup, EMS has been going the same route for a while now. They are definitely geared toward an inventory of outdoor clothing with usage as more a fashion statement than actual BC gear. I feel for the folks who are loosing these stores to a different market but to tell the truth I just don't really need them for much anymore. So many better deals on internet based stores and cottage industries supplying goods far exceeding anything either carry in the way of great light weight gear.

MYOG clothing and other gear isolates me even further from EMS and REI.

If you look at UL and SUL BP'er profiles in gear purchases you would have to admit that after a shelter, BP, and footwear most are looking to carry less stuff and more of it homemade on the cheap like MYOG cook kits, stoves, ect. Most here buy cottage shelters and BPs so they just cant sell us enough stuff to base their business model around us. And I for one am happy not to have to purchase a bunch of heavy stuff I don't need. The big plus in all of this is that the cottage industries will profit from the big stores not catering to our needs… and that is a great thing.

jimmyb

I don't know about offsetting the price. Performance/weight has improved with some items, but the prices are way out there. In the 1970's I never dreamed I would pend $150 on a windbreaker or $300 for a TARP.

Some gear has gotten better in the performance and weight categories, but a big part of the UL paradigm is leaving all that STUFF behind. Or better yet, not buying it in the first place. Gadgets like the handles they made for Nalgene bottles make me crazy! The Nalgene is heavy enough!

Normally it's not my business but I could see a LED lit tent being an eyesore if kept on all night but headlamps inside a lightweight fly have a similar effect. Same with powerful mini-speakers, but a multi-camper camp may also talk loud. Think we will need quiet hrs posted at all wilderness TH parking – enforce with random Ranger visits. I'd like to suggest first warning be a tent full of bear spray!!! .. but that's a little too mean. Some snorers are pretty loud.

>>Maybe more importantly, what if some of us find it offensive that people would cause light pollution at the campsite with their new LED tents

I ranted against the LED tents a while ago (here and on another site) and couldn't find even a single person who agreed with me (there are 2 in this thread – yay!).

Edited to add: BTW, the LED tents are being marketed for backpacking, NOT car camping. I would have no real problems with LED tents for car camping, since you can't logically expect a "wilderness" experience in that context.

I've heard the logic before that "it's the same as a headlamp", but I don't think it is…

Firstly, the LED tents spread the light out over a larger span (more light pollution than one headlamp inside a tent); secondly I think the LED tents offer more comfort psychologically for those afraid of the dark, and that will cause people to leave the lights on longer (or maybe all night).

Some of my best memories of cowboy camping involve looking at the milky way; these new tents might ruin that in backcountry places where dispersed camping is not permitted (some areas of GC, for example).

Clearly, I'm a curmudgeon — but I also get pretty steamed when people hike with music coming out of those little speakers hanging around their necks. I'm fine with you listening to whatever music you want, but use your headphones, people!

Yes, people can talk too loudly, and people snore, but somehow, that's not quite as jarring. (Except the guy having an argument on his cellphone on the trail — I could hear him through 2 whole miles of switchbacks — ugh!)

How about a little simple courtesy on the trails? I agree with the OP that selling/promoting this stuff tends to make it more acceptable/commonplace in the backcountry…and some of us liked the backcountry the way it was (dark and quiet).

I'm not sure I care so much. If I'm out on a long trail, in the middle of no where, and someone hauls an extra 20lbs worth of doodads to enjoy their experience more, I don't mind. But then again, I'm a very nonjudgmental/opinionated sort of person.

True, I'm sort of confused by companies like Poler, who seem to geared towards outdoorsy hipsters, but to each their own.

My very brief two cents.

Maybe more importantly, what if some of us find it offensive that people would cause light pollution at the campsite with their new LED tents, or that we don't want "chilling, music and getting drunk" to be the focus of why people are outside? What if that is the opposite of why many of the people who are already in the outdoors, go there in the first place?

The only time I'm likely to see a person with string lighted tents, is in a car camping location or a really easily accessed trail camp… and I sort of expect lights, music and drunk people in those. Actually, I think I'd prefer these as a campers ambient light, rather than a old school hissing gas lanterns, battery lanterns or chaotic flashlight movements.

If I'm 20 miles out at some lake, and I see a group with glowing tents… I guess it might bother me a little. Although, I'd probably still prefer a glowing tent to focused beams of light panning wildly around.

While I personally don't care for it, I see that the Big Agnes "MtGlo" lighting tech made it into Backpacker's 2015 Editor's Choice awards. Seems to me (like many of the comments under their blog), that Backpacker Magazine really has nothing better to review these days.

Next year, I bet the 2016 backpacking tents will include solar power, USB charging ports, and 5.1 surround sound. Just you wait!

http://blog.rei.com/camp/backpacker-magazine-names-2015-editors-choice-award-winners/

What is that supposed to weigh? 3-4oz. More than that then I'm with you. But it could pay for that weight once the nights draw in.

I'll certainly consider some comfort items if I'm going to be spending 10-12 hours in a tent.

As the heading asks, what do you expect when you mix rampant capitalism with mindless nerds?

Remind me to be extra nice to our cottage industry owners who have not sold out.

Fortunately, when you get more than a few hours away from the mass camping sites, you are often alone.

Cheers

If you check John Abela's 2014 gear list (http://hikelighter.com/2014/12/24/gear-of-2014/) you'll find a string of LED lights…some of us just like the decor. Seems to me I've seen the inflatable LED lanterns mentioned here more than once as well.

If you're camped next to me, and you ask nicely, I'll turn the LEDs off. Just don't try to tell me I'm a Bad Person for carrying them.

"Fortunately, when you get more than a few hours away from the mass camping sites, you are often alone."

And that is why it doesn't bother me. As long as I can get tent without it, it's all good. And there appear to be plenty of manufactures that don't and won't include LED lights in their tents. At least the tents I would be interesting in purchasing. ;^)

I had to Google "glamping" and it is a perfect term for my thoughts upon seeing the Evrgrn line yesterday while buying fuel at REI. Looked like fashion-conscious car camping gear to me… that was overpriced.

After working weekends at an REI for 3 years car campers and casual hikers are their largest demographics, so the line makes sense. What bothers me is that the gear was not very interesting and seemed to rely on color schemes and fabric patterns to differentiate it. The tent lacked a full coverage fly and usable vestibule… which rules it out as a workable tent for me. If I still worked ta REI I would not be recommending that tent to car campers.

My biggest gripe with REI is the horrid in-store selection. I live in the Bay Area where at least 6 REI's are within an hour's drive, and each store carries largely the same inventory, making it very difficult to actually try on/handle different gear.

P.S. LED lights are one thing, but I have yet to encounter them in the backcountry- what makes me want to throw rocks are portable speakers blasting music as people hike/camp.

If people want tent lights or whatever else the. Good for them.

Enjoying the outdoors is not always about pumping out the big miles.

Just so I have things straight here, the collective "disdain" in this thread is, among others:

1) REI is selling things marketed as "lightweight" that aren't as light as a single sheet of tissue paper.
2) There are tents that have LED's built in them, that could potentially pollute the wilderness with light.
3) REI doesn't carry the exact brand / model / item that you want.
4) "Hipsters" might start camping now as gear is being marketed toward them.

I truly don't mean this to sound offensive, but if any of these things (or REI in general) are upsetting to you, I think you need to take a second, step out of your bubble, and get a grip on reality.

Do you honestly think a large retail store could exist selling tarps, Fancy-feast stoves, and toothbrushes with the handles cut off? Do you really think to most people, that's what camping is about? This site is an amazingly small minority of people who care about, above and beyond all else, weight. Most people go out in to the wilderness not to torture, but to enjoy themselves. To them, this likely means not having to rig a headlamp to light their tent or have to sleep in a coffin sized plastic bag. Do you think anyone getting started in camping for the first time is going to go out with the kits that many on this site do? No, they're going to get a tent, an old fashion heavy stove, synthetic sleeping bag, and eventually, after living with that for a while, start working their way to higher end and lighter gear. They'll start at REI for the basics, and when they want something more specialty, they'll patronize the companies that many of us do so frequently.

So personally, I'm thrilled that REI is catering more toward the "hipster" type (which I've been called many a times). It'll get them in to camping, out in to nature, and hopefully they get hooked on it like I think we all have, and find their own way to enjoy and co-exist with it. It'll likely eventually drive business to the smaller companies, and push innovation as a whole. If it means that the tent a few hundred feet away from mine is throwing a bit more light, I think that's something I can live with.

RE: "Next year, I bet the 2016 backpacking tents will include solar power, USB charging ports, and 5.1 surround sound. Just you wait!"

Why wait? REI sells a tent loft (powered by rechargeable battery) with cables that allow you to recharge stuff, as well as for suspending your I-Pad in your tent for viewing movies from the comfort of your sleeping bag,

plus a bonus — a 100" strand of string lights:

Per description at REI's product page: "Doubles as a tent or campsite loft for theater-style viewing of video on a tablet while in camp"

More at — http://www.rei.com/product/880795/big-agnes-mtnglo-powercase-loft#tab-description

I hear a lot of people saying to hike your own hike, but now that lights are available in tents and some people want to use them, its bad for them to do it? If they want to hike with the extra weight, whether they're afraid of pure darkness in the backcountry or not, then they have a right to do so. If that gets more people out into the woods, then i see it as a good thing. Maybe next time they won't want to carry so much weight and will leave the lights behind.

Things like trashing campsites and whatnot are one thing, but someone wanting to use lights on there tent is another, in my opinion. No, i wouldn't want to be at a group campsite 20 miles up trail and have five tents around me all with led lights on them, but i would think the chances of that happening are slim to none. Nor would i ask them to turn there lights off because they're disturbing my time in the woods, because them turning the lights off might ruin THEYRE time in the woods. as someone already stated, most people who use these tents aren't going to be way out in the backcountry in the places a lot of us like to go to.

We are allowed to hike our own hike right?

for the record, i have never used led lights on my tent and do not plan on it.

Does anyone know if cottage brands like MLD, TarpTent, zPacks, etc have ever approached REI and asked for their gear to be sold?

Hi Cameron

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I think you may be missing the real gripe. It's the misuse of the words 'ultra-light' and so on for heavy car-camping gear which is causing the initial aggro.

What this means is that, to some extent, this Backpacking Light web site has succeeded in bringing the concept of 'light-weight' to a lot of the general outdoors public. Victory!

OK, maybe not quite that good, maybe just to the general outdoors retail outlets. Those outlets are not going to go as far as actually selling UL gear (the Returns would be crippling), but they are now admitting the existance of the concept, and they are admitting that it is a legitimate concept. In the early days we had all sorts of people attacking us for endangering the S&R by going out completely unequipped.

Cheers