Thoughts on new REI EVRGRN line, catalogs, offers and light polluting tents…

"Does anyone know if cottage brands like MLD, TarpTent, zPacks, etc have ever approached REI and asked for their gear to be sold?"

They would have to sell their products to REI and half of the intended retail price. Assuming that their current prices reflect the material costs + what they feel their time and labor is worth, the retail cost would be double the current price. That $500 cuben shelter would cost $1000 at REI. So they would have to move all production overseas and use less expensive materials to get their shelters anywhere near a reasonable retail price.

Roger, thanks for that, I think you get my point.

My rant here definitely isn't about having REI remove all non UL gear from their lineup, yeesh :)

It also isn't about pricing.

It certainly isn't about "hipsters." There is no definition of that word. I live in Brooklyn, they don't even exist here anymore. Everyone is too similar. You see people wearing flannel and leather boots – they are called hipsters by people wearing skinny jeans and tank tops. Those people are called hipsters by people wearing short shorts and loafers and sunglasses from the 50's. Those people are called hipsters by people wearing art for clothes. I think you get my point.

Its great to see everyone's opinions here, and an interesting discussion.

And for the record, I'm all for REI serving car campers, selling stuff we UL hikers find useless, and for charging as much as they want. I own a $500 cuben fiber tent, I'm not talking down to anyone.

Also, the post was not about talking down to people who want to take it easy in the outdoors.

The real issue lies with light pollution, deceptive or condescending marketing, and a lack of quality over marketing.

I would like to see REI survive, I just don't think that marketing new colors of crap in catalogs where young affluent people of all races, living in a fake world, pitch tents on the roofs of gentrification-based luxury buildings is the way to go. That's not life, let alone outdoor life.

Frankly, if they want to bastardize the outdoors and take a hand in ruining it for others in the name of selling low end junk, I just can't be a happy customer anymore.

Oh, and for what its worth, I emailed REI about it. They replied. With a realistic and positive response, which I appreciated. Someone over there still reads emails and pays attention, at least! Gotta applaud them for that.

A huge part of REI's target market is people who think they want to take up camping, buy a bunch of equipment, then never use it. There's seems to be many more such people always willing to line up at the camping starting line than there are people involved in doing it continually. It's the same people who buy Backpacker magazine off the rack to study the fifth article this year on surviving a bear attack.

Having said all that, everyone starts somewhere and it's not my business who buys what. I think shelters with built-in LED lighting is ridiculous, but if that's what people want then let REI sell it to them. At least they are keeping REI's profits up so that my ever-smaller year-end rebate is safe.

So it sounds like you're willing to sacrifice your experience for a measly 10% refund on whatever stuff you bought last year?

Personally, I couldn't feel more differently – I'd gladly give up my rebate for no LED light tents and less condescending marketing.

I guess I have to be a curmudgeon too. But I don't feel its curmudgeonly to want some peace and quiet and and a little respect in the outdoors.

Generally, staying away from big state campsites and car camping sites helps. My fear is that this crap makes its way into the backcountry where more committed outdoor enthusiasts will have to become victims of this crap that nobody really needs.

What experience am I sacrificing? Doesn't bother me for someone to buy what they think they want, use it in their backyard a couple of times, and then let it sit on the shelf. I can't imagine I'll run into too many Christmas tree tents in the true backcountry.

If I camp near people I run risk of them being too loud, building a fire, traipsing through my campsite on the way to go potty or retrieve water, shining headlamps all over the place, etc. That's the risk I assume when camping near others, I can't stop them so I don't fret over it. I rarely find that I have to camp near others unwillingly, if I'm in a campground or at a shelter then it's my choice for convenience or necessity and I accept what comes with that.

EDIT: to add, I agree with you in that I don't care for this stuff and find it gimmicky. But, I just don't see it invading the backcountry to the point it becomes a nuisance, and I don't own the backcountry or get to set the standards to meet my needs so I accept what I cannot change.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and BPL to endlessly argue about it if I can't quite tell the difference…

:-)

The experience I'm talking about is tranquility in the outdoors. And more specifically, things like the light pollution risk from LED tent camps, and the people who bring speakers instead of headphones into the wilderness.

I like to see the stars and hear nature, and I fear that experience is in danger here, that's all.

"What experience am I sacrificing? Doesn't bother me for someone to buy what they think they want, use it in their backyard a couple of times, and then let it sit on the shelf. I can't imagine I'll run into too many Christmas tree tents in the true backcountry.

If I camp near people I run risk of them being too loud, building a fire, traipsing through my campsite on the way to go potty or retrieve water, shining headlamps all over the place, etc. That's the risk I assume when camping near others, I can't stop them so I don't fret over it. I rarely find that I have to camp near others unwillingly, if I'm in a campground or at a shelter then it's my choice for convenience or necessity and I accept what comes with that."

You know these comments make me realize I'm probably far more annoyed by people's actions than what gear they carry. I'd much rather have a polite backcountry neighbor with a glowing tent than some annoying 20 somethings who carried dozens of beers to have themselves a mountain kegger.

Yup, I agree that ultimately it's the people and how they choose to use the equipment, rather than the equipment itself. I definitely take Adam's point that, if you bring annoying people together with equipment that has the potential to be even more annoyingly used than ever then you have the potential to be more annoyed than ever by them. But I think most of that can be avoided, and if it can't be avoided then I just chant "Serenity Now"…

I'm mostly in the who cares/HYOH camp (pardon the pun), but I can't help but note the irony of a product that allows you to enjoy a video of a log instead of enjoying the actual woods around you.

The light thing strikes me as ineffecient compared to a headlamp, but on a "pollution" level I can't see the difference between the tent light and a couple people reading with headlamps. Having someone in camp at night with a high lumen headlamp would proably be more annoying and night vision robbing.

I find glamping retailers like Best Made Company very bizarre, selling $300 axes and $165 denim shirts in the middle of NYC. It seems that REI may wany a piece of this silly but expensive pie. On some levels this is just obscene, like 18th Century French royal court fashions. http://www.bestmadeco.com/collections/all

REI has "sold out?" I'm not getting that comment. Compared to, say 30 years ago, REI's selection of backpacking gear today is lighter, wider, cheaper (adjusted for inflation), and vastly more accessible (internet + brick & mortar). So what if they want to also sell heavy doodads and yoga gear? No skin off my nose. In fact, I rather doubt there would be an REI in my city if they only sold backpacking gear.

I know that REI is a favorite whipping boy for some, but it seems you have to work pretty hard to gin up some righteous anger at REI for "selling out." :-)

I used to bicker with my techie buddies about how Radio Shack no longer carries bare speakers, transistors, diodes, soldering guns, ect…. and now only sells cell phone plans. They sold out to where the money is. Plus, the store employees know nothing about electrics either. They can operate a cash register and turn the lights out when leaving.

"Does anyone know if cottage brands like MLD, TarpTent, zPacks, etc have ever approached REI and asked for their gear to be sold?"

"They would have to sell their products to REI and half of the intended retail price. Assuming that their current prices reflect the material costs + what they feel their time and labor is worth, the retail cost would be double the current price. That $500 cuben shelter would cost $1000 at REI. So they would have to move all production overseas and use less expensive materials to get their shelters anywhere near a reasonable retail price."

Years ago REI started selling CCH Alien cams, a product that was basically made in someone's garage in Colorado. Amazing cam… but with the increased demand the company outsourced some manufacturing steps and the heads started popping off some of the units, which (along with abysmal customer service) lead to the dissolution of the company. Sometimes staying small allows for better QC and the direct interaction with the manufacturer is welcome.

My problem with REI, and this started a long time ago, is that they carry less and less of the inexpensive "basics" anymore. As an example, I use to use a small backpack and strap everything on it. REI use to have a large selection of straps. I always wanted the lightest/shortest ones I could get that would do the job. Having a selection allowed me to get the ones I needed. I'm not even sure they carry anything like that anymore; but I don't really need them so…

I find I spend less and less there. That said, two of my fathers day gifts came from there. :^)

If the stuff is going to "ruin" your camping experience, then the obvious answer is too pack up your elitist, UL kit and move. It really is that simple. Or, do the normal thing, and get over it.

How selfish are you when you basically say the people who would carry such items shouldn't be allowed out in the woods?

Yes, it's all gimmicky BS and they should be ashamed for the way it's being marketed, but come on, to say this stuff is going to ruin your experience is just ridiculous. If it enhances the experience of the person using it, then let them use it. It's shameful to think you're happiness should come before someone else's.

Holy cheese and rice.

Sorry, but this crap really gets to me if you can't tell.

My wife likes going in to REI to get yoga stuff, the funny thing is
when we normally go to gear shop she is bored after 5 minutes, in Rei it's the other way round.

All joking aside, Rei is better than nothing :-)

How selfish are you when you basically say the people who would carry such items shouldn't be allowed out in the woods?

Uhhhhh, who on earth said THAT???? Answer: No one. Please, calm down; you're scaring me with that venomous attitude. Didn't Ryan J. JUST ask people not to be so abusive on this site?

Why do you accord respect to ONE side of the argument (those who play music/use lights in the wilderness) while heaping abuse on the OTHER side (those who prefer not to have artificial light/noise)? Don't both sides have EQUAL rights? Do I not have the SAME right to peace and quiet as you have to noise?

Who is being elitist? Is it really necessary to be mortally offended because someone disagrees with you? Can't different sides of an argument both have some merit?

It seems to me that some people were simply asking for a little more courtesy in the backcountry. How is that so enraging? I think it's just common sense.

HYOH, but if you are seeking isolation and quiet, but keep ending up at a party, you are doing it wrong.

Pack up and hike on to a better spot, xxxx deal with it, or get up and make some friends.

Practice what you preach. Lol

Edit: You were just waiting on someone to make a comment you could pounce on, weren't you? Lol.

FYI: I didn't direct my post at anyone. Sure, it definitely looks as if I did. But I didnt. I didn't call out anyone. Maybe I wasn't even referring to anyone in the post. Maybe I was referring to the xxxx head hiker who was twice my age and size and who yelled at me for fifteen minutes because I had to search for my medication in my pack and the rustling of my pack and the headlight "ruined his whole night". Then he tried to force ME to move sites because it was his "favorite spot to stargaze and commune with nature" and I would "keep him up all night with my bullsh*t", even though he came 30 minutes after me. Does that sound like mutual respect to you? So please, do tell me more about MY venomous attitude. And while you're at it, put YOUR fangs away.

"there's a slim chance that people I may not like will invade my personal wilderness space, and it's REI's fault." Hmmmm. First world problem.

I've been hiking around the Yosemite and Ansel Adams backcountry for decades–other places as well, of course, but the point is that the amount of times I've been put out by people camping in my vicinity is very, very small. And these are highly trafficked areas.

Are you really sniffing at 'those people' who shop at REI and clearly don't belong where You are camping?

And no, I don't have an LED tent, although I'm intrigued by those three ounce solar lanterns. I read at night in my tent–but silently, to myself.

For Mr Riggle – you miss the point entirely. First off, by no means was I stating or implying that some elitist group of people should control the woods, and other people should be "kept out." You just put those words in the proverbial mouths of anyone agreeing with my original post.

More importantly, you aren't taking into account that I pointed out specific things that were problematic.

Furthermore, I don't know if my kit (here in the US its just gear) is even technically going to fit under "UL" as my pack weighs around 30 lbs all in, packed up and on my back.

I am still arguing for courtesy on the trail, and stand by my opinions on the lights.

Finally, its clear that your "venom" comes from a bad experience. Just let go and make peace with this guy. Many of us have had similar experiences.

Don't get your panties in a bundle dude, you can just ignore people like that and tell them they don't own the outdoors. Its his bad for not nicely asking you about your headlamp and not listening to your reasoning.

Either way, we all know that we can't remove all negative attitudes and people from the wilderness. I would just like it if the companies selling gear weren't a source of that problem in and of themselves. You see what I'm trying to say here?

Its simply a matter of expressing opinion and everyone discussing it like the adults we sometimes want to be :)

Sam, I'm sorry you had to deal with a complete *sshole once. We have all had those experiences, and they are hella-frustrating. He was clearly out-of-line.

However… Yes, your comment did seem like an attack; you called people "selfish", "shameful", and "elitist". How can those words be construed otherwise?

Now you accuse ME of being venomous and tell me to "put my fangs away"… Hmmmmmm. My post is unedited. I called you NO names, I said nothing untoward. I simply asked a bunch of questions designed to make you see that you were being unnecessarily harsh to others in this thread.

Personally, I tend to camp away from people (unless I'm with them!) because I like peace and quiet. Sometimes, that can't be done (like where dispersed camping is not permitted).

It is ok to lament the prevalence of things that disturb other people. Sure, it's a first world problem — what isn't on BPL? Cellphones in restaurants, cellphones on hiking trails, loud music being "broadcast" through speakers as folks hike… these are ok to discuss. If you welcome these things, I disagree with you, but I don't (and haven't) made any personal attacks.

That's why I asked you (politely) to please calm down.

Yes sir, you very well may be right. But the talk of light and noise pollution argues to the other point IMO. But hey, my reading comprehension always suffers at this time of evening. (Waking up at 4:30 is noooo bueno).

Anyway, I think REI is just good at getting people to buy ANYTHING. If it's the new hip thing in outdoors news, people will line up to buy it. If only to say they own it. Some people like to look fashionable no matter what they do so they'll pick gear with cool designs over what's functional.

But, I think that MtnGlo thing BA is doing has the potential of being pretty cool if it isn't just absurdly heavy or ridiculously bright. It would be neat if it came in a red light. Those who like reading a nice paperback before bed could find it very useful.

I say mehhh to REI.

You all are saying I shouldn't get the tent with the lights then?